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My Librarian has a psychic power which states it must be used at the START of his movement phase. If he deepstrikes is he allowed to still use the power when he lands or is the act of deepstriking in the actuall START of his movement phase? Also, he is deepstriking via a drop pod if that matters. In my opinion the rule implys that you have to use it before moving, hence START of the movement phase. I posted this for my friend who wants a solid answer.

This has been debated back and forth for a very long time. Personally I feel if you start the turn not on the board, then you can not use the power.

As for your last question, it does not matter how he enters play (walking on, deepstriking, or Drop podding) it is all the same as far as using powers.

No he may not; the Librarian is not on the table at the Start of his turn/movement phase.

Neither Start of turn, nor Start of movement Phase Powers/Abilities may be used by a unit in reserves.

There have been a few recent threads about this; one of which I spent a page or two explaining why this was the case to another Poster(even after the Precedent clarification on Warptime in the Chaos Marine FAQ was posted, the other poster just wanted to know why).

Deep Strike's occur at the start of the movement phase, when you're done Deep Striking all the units you can you're still at the start of the movement phase. Which power? Does the power state he must have been on the table at the start of the turn, start of the movement phase, or before the movement phase begins?

Kommissar Kel wrote:No he may not; the Librarian is not on the table at the Start of his turn/movement phase.

Neither Start of turn, nor Start of movement Phase Powers/Abilities may be used by a unit in reserves.

There have been a few recent threads about this; one of which I spent a page or two explaining why this was the case to another Poster(even after the Precedent clarification on Warptime in the Chaos Marine FAQ was posted, the other poster just wanted to know why).

Warptime works at the beginning of the turn and since Deep Striking occurs at the start of the Movement Phase it does not serve as precedent for the OP's question. That is even assuming one codex's faq answers "logic" could even be applied upon a different codex which I would disagree with being able to rightly do.

Leez wrote:
Deep Strike's occur at the start of the movement phase, when you're done Deep Striking all the units you can you're still at the start of the movement phase.

No, you are not. You are after the Start of the Movement Phase.

You're at the point of doing start of Movement phase effects.

Your librarian just made a deep strike move, though, so once he's on the table he must be after the start of his Movement phase.

There is precedent in the SW FAQ that entering reserves does not preclude start of turn abilities/effects (Grimmar High King ruling).

JimG wrote:There is precedent in the SW FAQ that entering reserves does not preclude start of turn abilities/effects (Grimmar High King ruling).

That's because the High King doesn't have Logan doing anything.

Gwar! wrote:

Leez wrote:
Deep Strike's occur at the start of the movement phase, when you're done Deep Striking all the units you can you're still at the start of the movement phase.

No, you are not. You are after the Start of the Movement Phase.

Hmmm, so if I deep strike two units, then turn to my librarian that was present from the beginning of the turn I am s.o.l for using his powers? What with no longer being at the beginning of the movement phase anymore and all, since I am done deep striking. I'd get laughed out of my group if I tried to claim "Deep Strikes are finished, so we're no longer at the start-of-the-movement-phase."

I see two rules. Deep strikes occur at the start of the movement phase, and a psychic power that can be used at the start of the movement phase . . . what rule am I missing that over rides either?

Because you have to do reserves first, then it is no longer the start of the turn....

nosferatu1001 wrote:Because you have to do reserves first, then it is no longer the start of the turn....

this line of thought was followed in the previous post and leads to absurdity unless there's a mistake in it.

Leez wrote:
Hmmm, so if I deep strike two units, then turn to my librarian that was present from the beginning of the turn I am s.o.l for using his powers? What with no longer being at the beginning of the movement phase anymore and all, since I am done deep striking. I'd get laughed out of my group if I tried to claim "Deep Strikes are finished, so we're no longer at the start-of-the-movement-phase."

I see two rules. Deep strikes occur at the start of the movement phase, and a psychic power that can be used at the start of the movement phase . . . what rule am I missing that over rides either?

The psychic power is used at the beginning of the Librarian's Movement phase, so that would have to be the first action the Librarian takes. Once the Librarian arrives via deep strike, he has already started his movement phase so is no longer at the beginning of it.

time wizard wrote:

Leez wrote:
Hmmm, so if I deep strike two units, then turn to my librarian that was present from the beginning of the turn I am s.o.l for using his powers? What with no longer being at the beginning of the movement phase anymore and all, since I am done deep striking. I'd get laughed out of my group if I tried to claim "Deep Strikes are finished, so we're no longer at the start-of-the-movement-phase."

I see two rules. Deep strikes occur at the start of the movement phase, and a psychic power that can be used at the start of the movement phase . . . what rule am I missing that over rides either?

The psychic power is used at the beginning of the Librarian's Movement phase, so that would have to be the first action the Librarian takes. Once the Librarian arrives via deep strike, he has already started his movement phase so is no longer at the beginning of it.

Your use of the word "started" implies the start of the movement phase is now in the past, but this is in fact not case. The rule book is quite clear, he arrives at the start and not after the start, thus when he arrives it is still the start of the movement phase.

You are now the third person to essentially repeat what Gwar! wrote in his first post in this thread and therefore the fourth person to contradict what the rules-as-written in the BRB without pointing out a rule in turn which over rides to the two I've put forth.

Leez wrote:Your use of the word "started" implies the start of the movement phase is now in the past, but this is in fact not case. The rule book is quite clear, he arrives at the start and not after the start, thus when he arrives it is still the start of the movement phase.

You are now the third person to essentially repeat what Gwar! wrote in his first post in this thread and therefore the fourth person to contradict what the rules-as-written in the BRB without pointing out a rule in turn which over rides to the two I've put forth.

So if he moves during his movement phase (if already on the board) can he still use the psychic power after he has moved his 6"? My guess is no, as he is not at the beginning of his movement phase. And, since deepstriking units count as having moved when they come on the board and therefore can only run or shoot, his normal movement is completed upon landing on the ground from a deepstrike. It sounds pretty straightforward to me.

Leez wrote:You are now the third person to essentially repeat what Gwar! wrote in his first post in this thread and therefore the fourth person to contradict what the rules-as-written in the BRB without pointing out a rule in turn which over rides to the two I've put forth.

Okay, here we go. First the rules from the main rulebook.

Page 94, first column. A player rolls for reserves at the start of his (the player's) movement phase. So if the Librarian is in reserve, it cannot use a psychic because it is not on the game board as yet.

Page 94, second column. When a unit arrives from reserve it moves onto the table. So if the Librarian arrives, it moves onto the table, now that it is on the table it can use a psychic power, but not one that could be used at the start of his movement phase, or the beginning of his movement phase like gate of infinity.

Page 95, first column. Some units can enter play using deep strike but you still roll for them to arrive, the only difference is how they arrive on the table during their movement. The Librarian could not use a power that must be used at the start of his movement phase if he is deep striking because he is not on the table yet.

Page 95, further down. In the movement phase they cannot move further after arriving from deep strike, therefore their movement phase is over. So once the Librarian has arrived via deep strike, his movement phase is ended so he again could not possibly use a psychic power that must be use at the start of his movement phase.

Page 11, first column. In his turn, during his movement phase, a player can move any or all or none of his units. He picks one unit to move, and once it's completed its movement he picks another one, and so on. So in the player's movement phase each unit has an individual and separate movement phase. If a unit were to perform an action that by rule must begin at the start or beginning of its movement phase, it would have to roll for the psychic test and take the action before any other movement action, and again, by rule, arriving from reserves is movement.

Those are the relevant rules. Hope this helps.

Kevin949 wrote:

Leez wrote:Your use of the word "started" implies the start of the movement phase is now in the past, but this is in fact not case. The rule book is quite clear, he arrives at the start and not after the start, thus when he arrives it is still the start of the movement phase.

You are now the third person to essentially repeat what Gwar! wrote in his first post in this thread and therefore the fourth person to contradict what the rules-as-written in the BRB without pointing out a rule in turn which over rides to the two I've put forth.

So if he moves during his movement phase (if already on the board) can he still use the psychic power after he has moved his 6"? My guess is no, as he is not at the beginning of his movement phase. And, since deepstriking units count as having moved when they come on the board and therefore can only run or shoot, his normal movement is completed upon landing on the ground from a deepstrike. It sounds pretty straightforward to me.

Movement of 6 inches does not occur "at the start" of the movement phase and thus is not directly relevant to the issue at hand since it's about Deep Striking and when the Deep Strike occurs, which is at the start of the Movement phase. Further more Deep Striking units only count as having moved when the shooting phase starts, quoting from the BRB p.95 third paragraph from the bottom on the left.

"In that turn's Shooting phase, these units can fire (or run) as normal, and obviously count as having moved in the previous Movement phase."

In the Shooting phase they count as having moved, not in the Movement phase do they count as having moved. The BRB is very explicit about to when to start treating them as though they have moved and it does not say to treat them as having moved in the Movement phase once the Deep Strike is complete. The BRB being permissive . . . it actually states "In the Movement phase when they arrive, these units my not move any further . . ."(p95, fourth paragraph up from bottom left).

time wizard wrote:

Leez wrote:You are now the third person to essentially repeat what Gwar! wrote in his first post in this thread and therefore the fourth person to contradict what the rules-as-written in the BRB without pointing out a rule in turn which over rides to the two I've put forth.

Okay, here we go. First the rules from the main rulebook.

Page 94, first column. A player rolls for reserves at the start of his (the player's) movement phase.

I agree, players roll for reserves and certain powers at the start of the Movement phase, I think it would be fair to say everyone that has posted in this thread agrees with this.

time wizard wrote:So if the Librarian is in reserve, it cannot use a psychic because it is not on the game board as yet.

Page 94, second column. When a unit arrives from reserve it moves onto the table. So if the Librarian arrives, it moves onto the table, now that it is on the table it can use a psychic power, but not one that could be used at the start of his movement phase, or the beginning of his movement phase like gate of infinity.

Page 95, first column. Some units can enter play using deep strike but you still roll for them to arrive, the only difference is how they arrive on the table during their movement. The Librarian could not use a power that must be used at the start of his movement phase if he is deep striking because he is not on the table yet.

Page 95, further down. In the movement phase they cannot move further after arriving from deep strike, therefore their movement phase is over. So once the Librarian has arrived via deep strike, his movement phase is ended so he again could not possibly use a psychic power that must be use at the start of his movement phase.

This is where our disagreement comes in. The unit arrives, said Librarian, moves onto the table as per the method it can, in this case by Deep Strike. Now it can use a psychic power. Why would I say, essentially, that the unit is both off and on the table in the "start of the Movemernt phase"? Quite the contradiction, but such is the way the BRB is written there is no avoiding this amusing bit of doublethink, at least none has been shown so far in the BRB itself. The BRB being permissive it does not say we've left what is defined as "the start of" the Movement phase in the section on Deep Strike or more largely Reserves. When the claim is made by people that we are no longer "at the start of" the Movement phase we need to bear in mind this is a turn based game. We do not move through time, within the context of the game world by performing an action. We move through it by saying "Okay, I am done my start of turn abilities, lets do the start of movement phase abilities, now the Movement phase abilities that do not occur at the start, now the ones that occur only at the end, etc, etc." either literally or by simply performing actions belonging to the next unit of time.

time wizard wrote:Page 11, first column. In his turn, during his movement phase, a player can move any or all or none of his units. He picks one unit to move, and once it's completed its movement he picks another one, and so on. So in the player's movement phase each unit has an individual and separate movement phase. If a unit were to perform an action that by rule must begin at the start or beginning of its movement phase, it would have to roll for the psychic test and take the action before any other movement action, and again, by rule, arriving from reserves is movement.

One unit at a time completes their movement phase, basically a series of mini-Movement Phases. Unfortunately this contradicts the Reserves procedure of "Once all of the units have been rolled for. . .picks another unit and deploys it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player may then proceed to move his other units as normal."

time wizard wrote:Those are the relevant rules. Hope this helps.

Well, we still seem to be at different ends of the topic, but it has resulted in greater clarification of our positions.

Sigh........

Did the Librarian cast the power before doing ANYTHING else? If he didn't, then he cannot. Your 'amusing bit of doublethink' isn't amusing at all, it's just flat out wrong.

But you've already decided and no one's going to change your mind. So I'll just disagree (along with all the others that have done so) and move on.

Look at the Chaos FAQ. Warptime used at start of turn. Sorcerer is deepstriking. Sorcerer can't use warptime or similar powers.

Librarian is in the same boat, there you go.

Leez wrote:One unit at a time completes their movement phase, basically a series of mini-Movement Phases. Unfortunately this contradicts the Reserves procedure of "Once all of the units have been rolled for. . .picks another unit and deploys it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player may then proceed to move his other units as normal."

You left out a fairly large and relevant section of the rules in your quote.

"Once all of the units have been rolled for, the player picks any one of the units arriiving and deploys it, moving it onto the table as described later. Then he picks another unit and deploys it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player may then proceed to move his other units as normal."

So the Librarian in reserve is rolled for. If it arrives, the player deploys it moving it onto the table. This can only occur in 1 of 3 ways, moving on from the table edge, outflanking or deep strike. Regardless of the way it moves onto the table, once it has moved onto the table, the start of its movement phase is over, and so it the opportunity for it to use any psychic power that has that requirement.

What's the range on this Librarian's ability?

don_mondo wrote:Sigh........

Did the Librarian cast the power before doing ANYTHING else? If he didn't, then he cannot. Your 'amusing bit of doublethink' isn't amusing at all, it's just flat out wrong.

But you've already decided and no one's going to change your mind. So I'll just disagree (along with all the others that have done so) and move on.

To answer your question, the BRB does NOT require you to "do nothing else" first when using a "start of turn/phase" ability, that, as a requirement is something you've read into up the rules but isn't actually to be found there, though I'd welcome a page reference. To be blunt at every stage but the first I've offered a well reasoned (at least I've been trying to) argument to support my position and to point out where counter arguments are flawed. If anyone is guilty of deciding they are correct and refusing to discuss the issue it would be you, and I'd thank you to not defame my frame of mind.

Kurgash wrote:Look at the Chaos FAQ. Warptime used at start of turn. Sorcerer is deepstriking. Sorcerer can't use warptime or similar powers.

Librarian is in the same boat, there you go.

Warptime is not the issue at hand, we are discussing the use of a power that is activated at the start of the Movement phase, not at the start of the Turn.

time wizard wrote:

Leez wrote:One unit at a time completes their movement phase, basically a series of mini-Movement Phases. Unfortunately this contradicts the Reserves procedure of "Once all of the units have been rolled for. . .picks another unit and deploys it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player may then proceed to move his other units as normal."

You left out a fairly large and relevant section of the rules in your quote.

"Once all of the units have been rolled for, the player picks any one of the units arriiving and deploys it, moving it onto the table as described later. Then he picks another unit and deploys it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player may then proceed to move his other units as normal."

So the Librarian in reserve is rolled for. If it arrives, the player deploys it moving it onto the table. This can only occur in 1 of 3 ways, moving on from the table edge, outflanking or deep strike. Regardless of the way it moves onto the table, once it has moved onto the table, the start of its movement phase is over, and so it the opportunity for it to use any psychic power that has that requirement.

Yes, it is moved onto the table as per the reserve method it follows. This movement occurs at "the start" of the movement phase when all reserve actions occur, "The player may then proceed to move his other units as normal." I've underlined the key word, the BRB reiterates the point of the phase when a reserve action happens, which is before ". . .mov[ing] his other units as normal." We are still at "the start" of the Movement phase but may (not must) move past "the start". This is exactly the point where the doublethink comes in, the Librarian is both off and on the board at "the start" of the movement phase. If only the word "may" had been omitted, but it has not.

Leez wrote:Yes, it is moved onto the table as per the reserve method it follows. This movement occurs at "the start" of the movement phase when all reserve actions occur, "The player may then proceed to move his other units as normal." I've underlined the key word, the BRB reiterates the point of the phase when a reserve action happens, which is before ". . .mov[ing] his other units as normal." We are still at "the start" of the Movement phase but may (not must) move past "the start". This is exactly the point where the doublethink comes in, the Librarian is both off and on the board at "the start" of the movement phase. If only the word "may" had been omitted, but it has not.

I doubt I'm going to convince you otherwise, but look again at what you just wrote. The Librarian may possibly be both on and off the board at the start of the movement phase, but the rule you quoted refers to the player's movement phase, which may be well and fine but has no bearing on the Librarian using the psychic power.

This is because page 57 of Codex:Space Marines clearly states that certain powers are used "...at the start of the Librarian's Movement phase." not at the start of or during the Player's Movement phase.

And as I have shown by citing the rules, the Librarian moves onto the board in its Movement phase.

It cannot use a psychic power at the start of its movement phase because the model itself is not on the table, and once it is on the table, the start of its Movement phase has ended, so it cannot use that power.

It is not the player's phase that is the issue, it is the model's movement phase! And that is the distinction you are failing to grasp.

time wizard wrote:It is not the player's phase that is the issue, it is the model's movement phase! And that is the distinction you are failing to grasp.

+1

The model has already finished its move--it can hardly be said to be starting its move.

Kurgash wrote:Look at the Chaos FAQ. Warptime used at start of turn. Sorcerer is deepstriking. Sorcerer can't use warptime or similar powers.

Librarian is in the same boat, there you go.

Kurgash is right, the FAQ does put the nail in the coffin for this issue.

This thread is the exact same discussion:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/303599.page

Powers and reserve rolls are at "start of movement phase".
Moving the models on happens after this. As such, once a model is being moved it is no longer the start of the movement phase. It is also certainly not the start of a model's movement phase if that model has already completed it's move.

1. Powers - start of movement phase
2. Reserve rolls - start of movement phase (simultaneous with 1)
3. Moving reserves onto table - in the movement phase (cannot be simultaneous with 1 or 2, happens after an action which happens at "start of movement phase" thus movement phase is underway.)
4. Moving normal units - in the movement phase.

I assume you are talking about Force dome, looking at the rulebook, psykers can use one power per turn, so once you have rolled for reserve and know they are coming in, use the power before you move/deploy the psyker, I can't find anything saying he has to be on the table to use a psychic power :-P

DeathReaper wrote:I can't find anything saying he has to be on the table to use a psychic power :-P

There's nothing saying psychic powers can be used while in reserve, either.

Ask your opponent. I think the "spirit" of the game would allow a librarian to enter the board with his force dome up and running. Sure, this probably isn't RAW, but that's how I would play it.

So you would allow this in a Dawn of War deployment as well?
I don't know every psychic power for every army, but would you then allow any other psyker to do the same?
It just opens up a host of problems.

Beginning of turn and Beginning of movement phase a synonymous(or at least we have no Beginning of turn pahase therefore the beginning of turn is the beginning of the movement phase).

We have no rules telling us what order beginning of turn/movement phase abilities must be done in what order, excepting that reserves must be rolled for and then carried out before any models move; therefore we are free to choose what order to complete those abilities.

As reserves requires you, as part of it's rules, to move models that come in from reserves it must (generally) be the last thing you do at the beginning of the movement phase/turn.

Therefore you must complete any Psychic Powers/ other Abilities by units in play before even rolling for reserves.

Note: Grimnar's high King has been ruled by the FAQ to break this as his is a special ability that must be applied in every players turn; while the FAQ ruling somewhat Breaks RAW by allowing him to choose the USR after the beginning of the movement phase(i.e. after models have been moved including himself) it does fulfill the necessity of his rule, and none of the USR's in question can be abused by being chosen after movement(unlike the Tau's Advanced stabilization system). This is also another example of the FAQ ignoring RAW, allowing something that should be disallowed.