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Hey there everyone! I recently just got back into the fight after a few years of being in the fight. If you dont what that means, I apologize. Anyways, with the recent release of 8th edition i found myself back in the Realm of Chaos which i left back in 6th edition. Since then Ive played only one game and that was against a VC army. It went well after a unit of 20 MOK marauders w/GW's killed his VL on a dragon. But I made some tweeks and im looking for feedback.

Level 4 Sorcerer Lord: MOT, Disc, Infernal Puppet, Tailsman of Perversion. 365 pts.

Exalted Hero: MOT, Halbred, Shield, BSB, Blasted Standard, Barded Steed. 185 pts.

Level 1 Sorcerer: MON, Dispel Scroll

30 Warriors of Chaos: Full Command, MOK, Shield, Halbreds, Banner of Swiftness. 585 pts.

20 Maruaders: Full Command, MOK, Great Weapons. 150 pts

10 Warhounds: 60 pts

5 Maruader Horseman: Flails, Stan/Mus. 93 pts.

14 Knights of Chaos: MOT, Stan/Mus, Banner of Rage. 650 pts.

1 Shaggoth: Great Weapon. 285 pts.


I know people will say 30 WoC in one unit?! Well in my eyes, thats a unit thats immune to psych with 41 WS 5 ST 5 attacks that has the ability to move as fast as a elven unit as well as inititive!

and I know people will say 14 knights in one Unit?! The BSB goes with this unit, which makes grants them a 4+ ward save vs shooting, frenzied and immune to psych with a 1+ AS!

The Sorcerer Lord is a must in my oppinion. The lvl 1 is just there for the scroll and buboes. MH with the vanguard will draw attention as well as the Shaggoth coming around the flanks.

I count 51 attacks with the Warriors if they run 10 wide!

Certainly need more Marauders - 20 is just not enough. One bad round of combat and the unit will be all but whipped out.

Let us know how it goes with the mega Knight unit.

expectat mortem wrote:Level 4 Sorcerer Lord: MOT, Disc, Infernal Puppet, Tailsman of Perversion

Heh, Slaanesh ftw

You really think the banner of rage is worth it on the knights? With the BSB in the front the unit only gains 4 WS5 S5 attaks from the knights and 1 WS7 S6 from the exalted, as the horses and the second rank don't benefit from the banner. I'd much rather stick the blasted standard right to the knights, freeing up the BSB to grab some magic res, a personal ward, fancy anti-KB armor, a killy weapon, etc.

And I'll second that the marauders are too wee to absorb the wounds they'll have to when using great weapons. I'd go 30, with points squeezed out of the extra big warhounds, the rage banner, etc.

+ EDIT +

I was rebuilding your list and discovered that the points were off on your lord, which kinda messed with things. Here's the list I tweaked over, with my changes above:

L: Sorcerer Lord - MoT, level 4, talisman of preservation, infernal puppet, disc = 390

H: Exalted Hero - MoT, BSB, collar, halberd, shield, steed = 195
H: Sorcerer - MoN, scroll = 130

C: 30 Warriors - MoK, full command, halberds, shields = 570
C: 30 Marauders - MoK, full command, great weapons = 200
C: 10 Warhounds = 60

S: 14 Knights - MoT, blasted standard, standard, musician = 650

R: Shaggoth - great weapon = 285
-------
2480

Something had to get cut, so it was the somewhat questionable flail cav. Great in 7th, still not sure what they do in 8th, apart from war machines or other light cav when able. 20 points left, which can buy a whole lot: roar for the disc, vomit for the BSB or sorcerer (so fluffy on the nurgle dude), e. shield for somebody, magic banner for the warriors (swiftness, flaming, MR(1), +1LD), bronze armor for the BSB, or any combination of cheap stuff from the new BRB.

- Salvage

30 Warriors is by far not a stupid thing in 8th. I had a block of just 24 take a grail relique, men at arms charge to the front with questing knights in the side....and they broke or killed everything without losing a rank.

However, I am not a fan of the halberds on the warriors. In 8th they will always have to use them and it is a 2 handed weapon making your warriors save a 4+. While -2 ArP will negate most core's saves....S4 is also enough to kill most of that so the S5 is just overkill without much more of a chance to produce kills. Cav are the real issue with 1-2+ saves that will still be 3-4+ and then attack back with S5/6 negating your save.

Swiftness banner is a waste in my opinion too on them. With their In of 5, Warriors pretty much don't care to be charged since the enemy will prob need that +1 res.

If you are set on killing as much as possible, I recommend you change your BSB to Banner of Rage and put him on foot with warriors and take razor banner on them. Give them Extra HW and Shield. Now each warrior has 4 attack at S4 with -2 to saves AND there is a EH to deal with enemy champs/heroes. They have a 4+ CC and a 3+ shooting save and with MoT you still have a 6+ ward.

In a 6x5 unit that is 30 attacks and now you have deep ranks. Horde is kinda wasted on warriors since they are 25mm unless your facing 25mm running least 6 wide also. Even if you run a horde of 10x3...then that is a whopping 60 attacks. Plus the EH has about 2-3 more than a normal, so prob about 62.

Against rank and file, say swordsmen, you will hit on 3's and wound on 2's with halberds/MoK and they have no save. Running 10x3 you will have 51 attacks with .667 chance to hit = 34 hits. A 5/6 chance to wound = 28 kills.
Against knights with 2+ --> 4+ save you will only score 14 kills. Realistic you will never get all 10 warriors in unless its horde on horde. The most you can get is 6 wide on a 5 wide 20mm. So 19+6+6 = 31 attacks. Which is 21 hits and 17 kills on swordsmen or roughly 8-9 knights.

With Banner Rage/Razor/EH + Extra HW you will have a total of 67 attacks which is 45 hits but will only wound on a 3+, which is still roughly 30 kills on swordsmen and 15 on knights. The EH in the unit probably is the bump here if all 30 are attacking. With the realistic outlook of 6 getting to attack you will have 40 attacks. Which is 26 hits and 18 kills or roughly 9 knights.

In the end the number crunching is close in terms of what the warriors will do. The difference is do you take a unit that if beaten will lose it's frenzy and has only a 4+ save? Or do you take a slightly more expensive option (think roughly 45pts guessing) that has permanent frenzy, a EH to counter champs/heroes, +1 more combat res, AND a 6+ ward save?

As for blasted banner on the knights, they have To4 and 1+ saves which pretty much negates most shooting. If you were taking the banner for warmachine shooting then just MoT like you did and get the knights into combat quick. With IN order striking now knights can pretty much charge most things and do fine, not to mention LD of 8 means probably won't break even if you lose combat by 1 or 2.

Ranked knights are mean though I will tell you. I had a unit of just 10 with MoK and it was devastating how fast they chewed through stuff and watched blocks of 25 break in 1 round of CC thanks to that 1 rank in the back.

Let me know how the shaggoth does, not real keen on large multiple wound creatures thanks to the new warmachine rules and how nasty cannons are.

Good analysis from mch - however, I still prefer halberds on warriors. 1 - the extra strength is important against other T4 elite units. Number crunching against Empire swordsmen is a good standard, I use it myself - just don't forget the perry save. 2 - halberds provide a +1 st from the 2nd row while extra hand weapons to not carry forward. Makes the halberd more efficient in my eyes.

Rather than giving the BSB a magic standard, I'd rather equip him some sort of magical defense. I expect to see BSB assassination turned into a fine art in 8th ed.

You can't use the parry save at all if you are frenzied. Go with halberds, their S bonus applies to all attacks even in 2nd rank.

thank you all for the input...i got a lot of tweakin to do. any input about running a lord with a hellfire sword and dawnstone with a knight unit 6 wide MoT with a blasted stan.

Other than the fact that it's a unit of knights, which is limited in its usefulness in 8th edition and begging to be nuked with the lore of metal, I guess it's alright.

Are people actually taking the lore of metal any more? I've literally heard nothing about metal, while life / beast / shadow / death and occasionally light pop up pretty frequently. Fire I've only heard mentioned once for fireball, but that's one better than metal! Me thinks the meta has changed along with the lores themselves.

I do agree that knight units are vulnerable though, lots of points in one place without the wounds to keep it around. But I'm all for it Expectact

- Salvage

I think metal is going to be one of the most popular lores for Empire. The two buffs (scaly skin & +1 hit and AP) are excellent with an empire army, and it has the bonus of a magic missile that is capable of killing the high armor knights and troops that state troops can struggle with.

30 warriors is a terrifying sight. Ive been running 2 blocks as the core of my army for the last several games, and with the exception of the occasional maneuver problem (which a reform can usually fix) they are fantastic.

I have been running dual hand weapons/shields, and the two things I want to explore are the razor banner, and halberds. The extra str. and armor save mod would be very handy, especially for those occasions where heavy cav charge you.

Lore of Metal still scares the crap out of me. I don't think it will be as common as before, but that isn't because it sucks. The other lores are more useful against all comers... metal is still the anti chaos warrior/knight lore IMHO. Obsidian 'X' magic item on a hero/lord paling around with a unit you want to survive longer is the way.

xenite wrote:I have been running dual hand weapons/shields, and the two things I want to explore are the razor banner, and halberds. The extra str. and armor save mod would be very handy, especially for those occasions where heavy cav charge you.

I was just thinking about what would be the better choice for warriors too. It seemed like a pretty easy comparison since they cost the same and have the same negatives (can't use a shield in CC), so I decided to try my hand at Math Hammer for the first time. The chart below shows the comparison of probable wounds caused and it looks like Halberds are the better choice and should always be taken over extra hand weapons. Please check my math since this is the first time I'm trying this.