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I came across this earlier this evening. Not sure I agree with everything said, especially by some of the commenters, but it is interesting none the less. I am not sure about CSMs being listed in the top 3 but SW and IG definitely belong there IMHO. Capture and Control: Top 3 Armies?

I agree with that but with a one change and a few caveats.

1.) Wolves
2.) IG
3.) BA

Wolves can beat IG, but IG beat more armies in general. In a tournament setting though, I would expect to see Wolves come out on top which is why i give them top nod.

Ya, I agree with that assessment. I have seen Wolves beat IG plenty of times but the opposite is a rare occurrence where I play. I personally think that part of the problem with the IG codex is there are so many good units people want to take them all and end up with a list that is too diverse to do anything because they want it to do everything.

On a side note; it's funny but I tried to put a link up on BoLS to the article on CNC and they took it down. Another guy on there complained about that too. I was wondering if anyone knew if I inadvertently broke one of their terms of use rules or something along those lines?

Depends on the spread of the tourney, and local player skill.

With exceptions, I'd be comfy taking ideal builds from almost any codex's army to a big field like, say, Adepticon, and winning all 3 games regardless of opponent. Exceptions include Dark Angels, Necrons, etc.

Top 3 is more related to the # of "competitive" players fielding them these days ... proper Ork, IG, SW, BA, a couple of SM builds, a couple of CSM builds, and a few other things are all arguably able to take anybody on any day.

I don't really know how dependable that poll really is it was only 50 people. It's just too black and white. I have to agree with MVBrandt it really depends on skill lvl of the players. With that being said I totally throw it out because Orks were so low on the list

SW and IG are in the top three. Probably BA as well.

G

SW and IG I'd agree about. These are the two armies you say, "OH @#^&*" when you see them start to set up across the table.

UbiSwanky2 wrote:I don't really know how dependable that poll really is it was only 50 people. It's just too black and white. I have to agree with MVBrandt it really depends on skill lvl of the players. With that being said I totally throw it out because Orks were so low on the list

I agree about the poll but then again so did the author of the article, he says so in the first paragraph, and yes level of skill and other "local" factors play a large roll in the view point of the author but that's true for everything written on the internet whether it be on BoLS or a Dakka thread. Personal experiences are always a persons primary frame of reference. I am not so sure about BA needing to be higher on the list. I still haven't run into a player who can beat my wolves with them. I lost one game to them with my Salamanders in an Ard Boyz (2500 pt) game and that was due to my inexperience with the new codex more than to being out played. I hadn't read or played against the new codex yet, nor read any of the major threads here on Dakka or elsewhere about the armies strengths and weaknesses so I lost by one KP, oh well live and learn with that one. I just don't see BA performing well but again your personal experiences with the new BA may vary greatly depending on your local scene and the quality of the local BA players.

UbiSwanky2 wrote:I don't really know how dependable that poll really is it was only 50 people. It's just too black and white. I have to agree with MVBrandt it really depends on skill lvl of the players. With that being said I totally throw it out because Orks were so low on the list

This.

Anyone who doesn't know that Orks win EVERY fight is obviously clueless about 40k.

Signed,
Diehard Ork Fan

Orks don't win every fight, that's silly. Orks are okay at close combat with a few exceptions like Ghaz and nobs.

G

Black Blow Fly wrote:Orks don't win every fight, that's silly. Orks are okay at close combat with a few exceptions like Ghaz and nobs.

G

I think he was getting at that famous Ork fluffy quote where even if Orks are beaten it doesn't count because they are dead, etc.

Hee! I missed that. My bad.

I would be willing to put Orks in 3rd position even with BA. I have NEVER lost to BA in a tournament or otherwise. That hardly means they aren't good or that I am amazing, just that it is not an army that is all that scary IMO. It looks a lot worse on paper than it plays on the table top, in my experience.

I agree that skill is the deciding factor, that and luck, but all things equal, if we took the best player, cloned him and gave each version of him an optimized build from every codex, I think Wolves, IG and then Orks or BA would be the top dogs.

But, obviously that is impossible to prove, but it is fun to speculate.

What does a Top Contending Chaos Space Marine look like?

kaiservonhugal wrote:What does a Top Contending Chaos Space Marine look like?

Dual lash + PM + 9 oblits

Orks have accomplished more since the BA release, but I think we have to wait a year for all the bandwagon BA players to get past the "Mephiston Rules!" phase before we see some stable trends. Honestly if the new Razorspam lists were not so powerful against them I would give Dark Eldar the not for third, but its just too damn likely now that you will run into the 18 ML spam list. There is no doubting that SW and IG are tops, however, with IG being better only when allies are allowed.

Orks have been out since before the release of 5ed.

G

I don't agree that Chaos ranks. Dave Fay is the only Chaos player I see regularly place and I'm pretty sure he'd pull that off with most codexes. I'd say SW's and IG are pretty strong but to be honest Orks, well built Tyrannids, Dark Eldar, SM, even Tau can be down right dirty. If we're just going off Tournament results then I'd say SW, Orks, IG in that order.

@Phazael

I agree that Orks should generally be in the top 3 as they seem to perform disperportionately well.

@BBF

Phazael was saying that BA haven't been doing that well and that in fact Orks had taken another upswing since the BA's came out. And that seeing how BA's shape up will take around 6-12 months for people to find good solid builds and gain experience.

sparks and mutscheller, the toledo twins, run chaos with great effect.

Chaos can be run competitively ... and they're at least a little more flexible than some. Honestly, the better question would be which ones AREN'T competitive tournament codices.

I'm comfy crushing any player, from anywhere, with almost any codex, EXCEPT for things like Dark Angels and Necron. I don't really think of it based upon "needing" a few of the top ones to feel comfortable, so much as not wanting some of the bottom ones. I would be shocked if most of the other top players don't feel the same way.

MVBrandt wrote:Chaos can be run competitively ... and they're at least a little more flexible than some. Honestly, the better question would be which ones AREN'T competitive tournament codices.

I'm comfy crushing any player, from anywhere, with almost any codex, EXCEPT for things like Dark Angels and Necron. I don't really think of it based upon "needing" a few of the top ones to feel comfortable, so much as not wanting some of the bottom ones. I would be shocked if most of the other top players don't feel the same way.

I think the idea is what armies give you best chance to win all comers. Maybe you can win with Orks, but is the path to victory easier with Space Wolves? Probably.

Regarding CSM I think they are much better at 1500 than at other point levels.

I'm pretty confident with Orks and feel like I can do well with them. But if someone tells me I'm playing for a million dollars I'm pretty sure I'm not playing with Orks. I'm gonna play with the army that gives me the best chance to win.

First - Good players will win with their lists - most of the time. And on any given Saturday - any player can lose to pretty much anyone.

Second - no love for the basic Space Marine codex?? Still the most flexible one out there and capable of handling pretty much any army if built right.

Aldonis wrote:First - Good players will win with their lists - most of the time. And on any given Saturday - any player can lose to pretty much anyone.

Agreed. That doesn't really help answer the question though. What are the best armies?

Overall I pretty much agree with the top 2 - and would replace CSM with regular SM.

Like just about everyone else in the thread, I have to say that IG and SW take the top slots. As for number three, I would have to say it's a tie between regular space marines, and blood angels. Both have great, but similar builds. I think once BA players start moving into more SW or SM style lists, and not Mephiston and Death Company will pwn you lists, they will perform better.

Lets see how this weekend shakes out.

G

Phazael wrote:I think we have to wait a year for all the bandwagon BA players to get past the "Mephiston Rules!" phase before we see some stable trends

It's true! One of my regular opponents destroys my Orks with BA all the time. He's also been playing them since Angels of Death and is a good enough player that he was able to win most games even with the gak PDF BA list, which is a good argument for skill > list.

SW and IG. I would build a SW army but theres too many already in my area.

jaweyermuller wrote:Ya, I agree with that assessment. I have seen Wolves beat IG plenty of times but the opposite is a rare occurrence where I play. I personally think that part of the problem with the IG codex is there are so many good units people want to take them all and end up with a list that is too diverse to do anything because they want it to do everything.

On a side note; it's funny but I tried to put a link up on BoLS to the article on CNC and they took it down. Another guy on there complained about that too. I was wondering if anyone knew if I inadvertently broke one of their terms of use rules or something along those lines?

On the contrary, I haven't lost to space wolves yet (although 1 game was VERY close, and that was with a drop pod SW army). With wolves it is critical to have some form of counterattack unit, as relying on shooting won't hack it.

But the SW dex is definitely more powerful than the BA dex, as I find it more flexible. The BA dex you pay more for the stuff you get (as compared to the vanilla SM dex), while SW get their stuff cheaper. Vanilla SM is still powerful, and besides wolves and IG I say #3 is debatable between Orks, BA, SM, Nids, Eldar, and CSM. To be honest, the power level even from #1 to all these dexes is not so great in that a good player can win with any of these codexes (throw in witchhunters too, sisters and exorcists rock, and chaos daemons as well), with dark eldar and tau being darkhorses, occasionally surprising once in a while...

freddieyu1 wrote:

jaweyermuller wrote:Ya, I agree with that assessment. I have seen Wolves beat IG plenty of times but the opposite is a rare occurrence where I play. I personally think that part of the problem with the IG codex is there are so many good units people want to take them all and end up with a list that is too diverse to do anything because they want it to do everything.

On a side note; it's funny but I tried to put a link up on BoLS to the article on CNC and they took it down. Another guy on there complained about that too. I was wondering if anyone knew if I inadvertently broke one of their terms of use rules or something along those lines?

On the contrary, I haven't lost to space wolves yet (although 1 game was VERY close, and that was with a drop pod SW army). With wolves it is critical to have some form of counterattack unit, as relying on shooting won't hack it.

That point is fair enough, I have yet to play a guard list with adequate counter attack. For the most part if my opponent has Rough Riders he throws them at me immediately instead of holding them back. What else would you use in terms of counter attack with Guard?