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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/08/01 19:45:56
Subject: Do Forgeworld / Imperial Armor rules require opponent consent?
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Maddening Mutant Boss of Chaos
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Since the release of the new PDFs with rules for Krieg and Renegades armies the debate has been up in those threads.
I always thought it was the case, what I do is that I tell my opponent that I'm playing a FW list and let him see the FW list in my IA book.
So far I never had any person refuse and never was asked to show my army list.
So Dakka, do FW rules require opponent consent?
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/01/06 09:32:30
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/08/01 19:48:10
Subject: Do ForgeWorld rules require opponent consent?
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Dakka Veteran
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Yes, always.
They write their own rules, but none of them are official.
In casual games, its rarely a problem. Just don't try them in tournaments.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/08/01 19:50:09
Subject: Do ForgeWorld rules require opponent consent?
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Maddening Mutant Boss of Chaos
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Most tournaments will make the point clear in their rules, every now and then some allow them. But the point is for casual gaming as this is what they were intended for at the very start.
I wish they were made official and stated in the main rulebook that they are official, but it's not the case.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/08/01 19:51:39
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/08/01 19:58:44
Subject: Do ForgeWorld rules require opponent consent?
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Dakka Veteran
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If you pulled some FW Imperial Guard on me in a casual game, odds are I wouldn't even realize it unless you informed me. But I would appreciate being informed.
In all likelyhood, they will never be considered legal rules. If that was the case, arguments like the FW vs GW manticore would be even worse.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/08/01 20:11:15
Subject: Do ForgeWorld rules require opponent consent?
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Maddening Mutant Boss of Chaos
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At the moment you see Sabre Defense Platforms and Earthshaker emplacements you'll notice something isn't quite right.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/08/01 20:37:19
Subject: Do ForgeWorld rules require opponent consent?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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1) the ENTIRE GAME is opponents consent.
If you dont want to play someone, you cannot be forced to. For whatever reawson - hate eldar? gfine, dont play them/
2) technically the FW rules require as much permission as any other rules. They state this in all the FW books (remember, they are official Citadel products, same as codexes) so no.
However, as with all questions around "lgality" the following is true:
1) In tournaments the TO determines what you can and cannot use. see 1 above.
2) In pick up games, see above.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/08/01 22:09:02
Subject: Do ForgeWorld rules require opponent consent?
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Veteran Inquisitor with Xenos Alliances
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Most of forge worlds rule books say in their front that the rules are official. So from GW's perspective and the perspective that anything GW puts out is "official," that is the case.
Tournaments simply disallow the rules because 99% of players will have never seen the FW rules. In Magic the Gathering tournaments certain cards are banned even when they might otherwise be acceptable, this is no different.
So from that perspective FW rules are the $2 bill of the gaming community, they exist and they're "official" but not everyone accepts them.
That doesn't answer "should the rules require your opponents consent." As nosferatu1001 points out all rules require opponents consent. So really the question in this thread should be refined to... "why shouldn't FW rules be allowed?"
The only thing that isn't "fair" about FW rules is that they aren't used enough and so people don't know what to expect. This really makes it an uphill fight for the rules acceptance.
For anyone who's read the FW rules it is a simple fact 95% of the units are over priced. This is to the advantage of the opponent. The other 5% are either fair or better. Of the 5% the advantage is minimal and less drastic than the moderate advantages common in codices.
The simple fact is they aren't unfair to the opponent they are just simply flavorful additions to armies that do little to alter the balance.
So there is no reason to disallow them in pick up game and every reason to enjoy them.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/08/01 22:57:14
Subject: Re:Do ForgeWorld rules require opponent consent?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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There may be no reason to disallow them in pick up games, but there's also no recourse or reason to be upset if your opponent says, "No, thank you" and declines the game when you bring out your Forge World models. No reason at all is all the reason needed to decline a game.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/08/01 23:58:00
Subject: Do ForgeWorld rules require opponent consent?
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The New Miss Macross!
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hey OP, start a poll (you can do that when you start the thread).
as nosferatu said, the entire game is a social contract with another player. you have the right to not allow your opponent to use figs painted with any green but that doesn't mean it's covered in the rules. when it comes to FW stuff, it is covered in the main rules. pg. 86-87 clearly states multiple times that you choose your army up to an agreed upon point total from a CODEX. the forgeworld books are not codicies (plural of codex) and therefore require consent. just like you can't simply choose to use rules from planetstrike (also an "official" gw product) or a white dwarf article (also GW) without permission, you can't spring FW stuff on people per the rules. forgeworld has been around for 3 editions of 40k now and GW have CHOSEN to not mention their wholey owned subsidiary's products in any fashion in the rules (let alone calling them official). that being said, i DO allow my opponents to use FW stuff... but it's my choice.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/08/02 00:00:23
Subject: Do ForgeWorld rules require opponent consent?
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Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor
Gathering the Informations.
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Veldrain wrote:Yes, always.
They write their own rules, but none of them are official.
In casual games, its rarely a problem. Just don't try them in tournaments.
Wrong. Their rules are just as official as anything you'll see in any 40k Codex.
The exception is the Experimental rules, which are of course just that...experimental.
But once those rules are published in an actual Imperial Armour book, they're official. Same goes with the "official errata/updates" for the previously published IA lists.
The rule of thumb, in my take at least, is this:
People aren't going to care for pick-up games, provided you actually provide them some kind of way to read the rules for your stuff ahead of time, or some kind of quick reference sheet for them to work from. It's the whole "fear of the unknown" aspect that makes people not want to face the FW stuff, along with the possibility that you're going to be a complete and utter TFG and make up rules that benefit you as it goes along.
And for tournaments...the lists can be barred from play, same as any other Codex or rules set can be.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/08/02 01:50:31
Subject: Do ForgeWorld rules require opponent consent?
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Maddening Mutant Boss of Chaos
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I added a poll.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/08/02 05:31:24
Subject: Do ForgeWorld rules require opponent consent?
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Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight
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I always have major problems with the slightest changes of the rules in my friendly gaming club. If I ever dared use a forge world model with different rules, They would probably refuse to play me. Most of them are very tight, Never allowed to play with the baneblade I bought because its apoc. They even refuse to play spearhead BECAUSE ur allowed baneblades. They cant see the advantage of it, if they killed it its instant loose for me
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/08/02 06:03:08
Subject: Do ForgeWorld rules require opponent consent?
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Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets
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Its easy to say people wont care .... but most forgeworld stuff is hideously overpowered ....
And no its not official just because they say they are, i could write a fandex and say its official and can be used in 40k, but until the main rulebook says forgeworld units are allowed same as codex in games theyre not.
Opponents permission.
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- 3000 pts
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3850 pts |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/08/02 06:09:47
Subject: Do ForgeWorld rules require opponent consent?
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[MOD]
Making Stuff
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kill dem stunties wrote:And no its not official just because they say they are, i could write a fandex and say its official and can be used in 40k, but until the main rulebook says forgeworld units are allowed same as codex in games theyre not.
There is some small amount of difference between a fandex and a rulebook written by a division of Games Workshop.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/08/02 06:42:07
Subject: Do ForgeWorld rules require opponent consent?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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kill dem stunties wrote:Its easy to say people wont care .... but most forgeworld stuff is hideously overpowered ....
The 200 point hydra is overpowered? How about the 65 point chaos drop pod which cannot let cargo out until turn 3 at leastr, and in a 5 turn game may not get to drop its payload at all? What about the 400+ point macharius vulcan, whcih is lower in structure points armour AND guns over the 70ish points more baneblade?
Sorry, that statement is hideously incorrect. there are only *2* overpowered units that I can recall: lucius pattern drop pod, and the Hades breaching drill. The Hades is arguable as the DkoK list was only "ok", but I havent read the FAQ yet.
kill dem stunties wrote:And no its not official just because they say they are, i could write a fandex and say its official and can be used in 40k, but until the main rulebook says forgeworld units are allowed same as codex in games theyre not.
Opponents permission.
Wrong again. the Book, published and copywritren to CItadel miniatures, states it is official. Exactly the same reason codexes are official.
However your last statement is correct - however you are wrong in its application. EVERYTHING is opponents permission.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/08/02 07:08:41
Subject: Do ForgeWorld rules require opponent consent?
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Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor
Gathering the Informations.
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To be fair:
The Chaos "Drop Pod" isn't. It's a Boarding Pod.
There's a difference.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/08/02 07:18:38
Subject: Re:Do ForgeWorld rules require opponent consent?
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Storm Guard
Minnesota
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Just read through the renegades pdf myself, didn't see anything that could be called OP, and it wouldn't stand a chance vs many of the newer GW codices like SW or BA. As others have stated, the entire game is dependent on your opponent's consent, if he doesn't want to play, you won't have a game. This rule stands whether you have some unit he doesn't like fighting, you happened to include FW models or are running one of their armies, or painted your entire army pink (which he hates). The point of the game is to have fun, so enjoy the variety available in 40k and enjoy it!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/08/02 07:46:26
Subject: Do ForgeWorld rules require opponent consent?
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Unrelenting Rubric Terminator of Tzeentch
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insaniak wrote:kill dem stunties wrote:And no its not official just because they say they are, i could write a fandex and say its official and can be used in 40k, but until the main rulebook says forgeworld units are allowed same as codex in games theyre not.
There is some small amount of difference between a fandex and a rulebook written by a division of Games Workshop.
The fandex will have fewer errors?
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DR:90S+G++MB+I+Pw40k07++D++A++/eWD-R+++T(Ot)DM+
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/08/02 08:04:39
Subject: Do ForgeWorld rules require opponent consent?
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Stormin' Stompa
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The second anybody convinces me that FW rules are playtested and balanced to the same extent (such as it is) that GWs "real" rules are, I'll happily allow any and all FW additions to the game. Even the hint that FW rules are somehow vetted or accepted by the GW games designers will do.
As it stands right now, I won't.
Saying; "FW rules says they are official, therefore they are" is beyond stupid.
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"He died because he had no honor. He had no honor and the Emperor was watching."
18.000 3.500 8.200 3.300 2.400 3.100 5.500 2.500 3.200 3.000
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/08/02 08:17:33
Subject: Do ForgeWorld rules require opponent consent?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Forge World rules are a mess. Even a quick skimming of the DKoK Codex revealed a lot of problems, from small things like typos and inconsistent formatting to major balance problems.
I see Forge World rules as analogous to Apocalypse rules: they can potentially make for some really interesting games, but it isn't appropriate for one player to spring them on an unsuspecting player. It's a good thing that they're not allowed in most tournaments.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/08/02 08:18:01
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/08/02 08:28:22
Subject: Do ForgeWorld rules require opponent consent?
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[MOD]
Making Stuff
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Steelmage99 wrote:The second anybody convinces me that FW rules are playtested and balanced to the same extent (such as it is) that GWs "real" rules are, I'll happily allow any and all FW additions to the game.
That's kind of a good point, though... It's pretty much accepted that the regular 40K rules aren't particularly balanced, and that the studio don't go to any great lengths to make them so... because the game was never really intended to be a 'competitive' ruleset.
I think that's where a lot of the conflict comes from here... If you try to pretend that the 40K rules are more or less balanced, then 'outside' rules would be an unknown quantity that potentially unbalances the game. If you accept that the rules are a mess to begin with, that the game is only supposed to be a bit of mindless fun, and Forgeworld's additions are simply there to add variety rather than tactical depth, it's all much less of an issue.
I see Forge World rules as analogous to Apocalypse rules: they can potentially make for some really interesting games, but it isn't appropriate for one player to spring them on an unsuspecting player.
This seems to be a recurring theme throughout threads like this. I'm having trouble figuring out how you spring any rules on an unsuspecting opponent. Don't you discuss what sort of game you're playing, and what rules you'll be using, before setting up?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/08/02 08:28:46
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/08/02 08:59:59
Subject: Do ForgeWorld rules require opponent consent?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Steelmage99 wrote:The second anybody convinces me that FW rules are playtested and balanced to the same extent (such as it is) that GWs "real" rules are, I'll happily allow any and all FW additions to the game. Even the hint that FW rules are somehow vetted or accepted by the GW games designers will do.
HOw about FW being a Citadel company? That FW and "real GW" ( lols..) designers share the same workspaces and are alll friends with each other?
Steelmage99 wrote:Saying; "FW rules says they are official, therefore they are" is beyond stupid.
Good job noone is saying that. FW rules are official because CITADEL MINIATURES says they are. You know, those people that publish the BRB and codexes?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/08/02 09:30:16
Subject: Do ForgeWorld rules require opponent consent?
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Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor
Gathering the Informations.
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Insaniak wrote:This seems to be a recurring theme throughout threads like this. I'm having trouble figuring out how you spring any rules on an unsuspecting opponent. Don't you discuss what sort of game you're playing, and what rules you'll be using, before setting up?
I think the problem, in my view at least, is that there's really two things that are considered "Forge World rules". You've got:
1) Experimental rules and superheavies which are just used as add-ons to the standard Codex force(although most of them are balanced for Apocalypse games, not standard 40k...it doesn't stop people from trying to sneak them in though).
2) The actual Forge World "official 40k Standard Game" lists, like Detachment 99, the Deff Dred Mob, etc.--with a few assorted Special Characters(Korvydae, Commander Culln off the top of my head) thrown in for good measure.
With #1, you've got something that isn't really meant for that specific gametype. Apocalypse is, and really always will be, where Superheavies fit the best without any real fiddling needed to 'make it work'. Experimental rules are something you should always inform someone of, and be ready with an alternative list if they don't want to be part of Forge World's external playtesting(read: guinea pigs who spam their email with mail about how suchandsuch is OP).
With #2...well, there's no real issue outside of general familiarity with the list, alongside of the availability of the actual rules. If you're playing against a Black Templars player who is lighting you up with a Psyker blitzstorm of death--you can get your hands on the rules even if you don't own the Codex or the player refuses to even let you look at their copy, you'll be able to peruse a copy of it from the store you're playing at.
With Forge World, you're reliant on the person who owns the book no ifs, ands, or buts. You need them to actually let you get a look at the rules if you think something's hinky.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/08/02 10:56:25
Subject: Do ForgeWorld rules require opponent consent?
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Stormin' Stompa
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nosferatu1001 wrote:Steelmage99 wrote:The second anybody convinces me that FW rules are playtested and balanced to the same extent (such as it is) that GWs "real" rules are, I'll happily allow any and all FW additions to the game. Even the hint that FW rules are somehow vetted or accepted by the GW games designers will do.
HOw about FW being a Citadel company? That FW and "real GW" ( lols..) designers share the same workspaces and are alll friends with each other?
This is all completely irrelevant. The rulebook tells us how to pick an army (ie. using any one codex) and that is what you should do.
Steelmage99 wrote:Saying; "FW rules says they are official, therefore they are" is beyond stupid.
Good job noone is saying that. FW rules are official because CITADEL MINIATURES says they are. You know, those people that publish the BRB and codexes?
Could you quote me that rule, preferably with a page number? I'm simply looking for a rule that grants me a specific exception to the general rule of "pick an army using any one codex".
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"He died because he had no honor. He had no honor and the Emperor was watching."
18.000 3.500 8.200 3.300 2.400 3.100 5.500 2.500 3.200 3.000
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/08/02 11:05:13
Subject: Do ForgeWorld rules require opponent consent?
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[MOD]
Making Stuff
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Steelmage99 wrote:The rulebook tells us how to pick an army (ie. using any one codex) and that is what you should do.
... if you and your opponent choose to play that way.
Ultimately, I think the idea that Forgeworld rules are akin to Apocalypse is probably the best way to look at it. If you just want to play by the core rules, then you have the rulebook and a codex. If you want to change up your gameplay, you have Apocalypse, and Planetstrike, and Forgeworld.
They're all 'legal'... but they're also all slightly different aspects of the game.
So the key is simply to discuss with your opponent beforehand, to make sure you're both wanting to play the same game.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/08/02 11:11:15
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/08/02 11:23:06
Subject: Do ForgeWorld rules require opponent consent?
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Loyal Necron Lychguard
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Steelmage99 wrote:Could you quote me that rule, preferably with a page number? I'm simply looking for a rule that grants me a specific exception to the general rule of "pick an army using any one codex".
Quote me the rule that says which codexes are valid.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/08/02 11:59:00
Subject: Re:Do ForgeWorld rules require opponent consent?
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Veteran Inquisitor with Xenos Alliances
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solkan wrote:There may be no reason to disallow them in pick up games, but there's also no recourse or reason to be upset if your opponent says, "No, thank you" and declines the game when you bring out your Forge World models. No reason at all is all the reason needed to decline a game.
Thats true of any pick up game. I've had people tell me they didn't feel like playing against my chaos army, because they just played against one. I had no recourse. You can't ever "force" someone to play with you.
insaniak wrote:Steelmage99 wrote:The rulebook tells us how to pick an army (ie. using any one codex) and that is what you should do.
... if you and your opponent choose to play that way.
Even still the Rule Book, is overridden by the codices and other books. So even if the main rulebook says explicitly "pick only codex book armies" by GW's own admission the fact is that any other book published to work with 40k is inherently a revision, addendum, and "more correct" than the rule book on its own.
GW designers "live" in a different gaming world than 90% of the gaming community, they don't percieve this problem. From their mindset these rules are valid and the notion of disallowing someone from playing is just uptight dickery on the part of the opponent. When they've been asked they say the rules are valid. The GW designers for the most part see their rules as on the same level as fan rules, its ownly the tournament scene and non-casual players, that need consistency, who insist on elevating the designers rules above FW or the homebrew.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/08/02 12:02:42
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/08/02 12:11:45
Subject: Re:Do ForgeWorld rules require opponent consent?
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Khorne Chosen Marine Riding a Juggernaut
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I don't mind FW Models at all. I don't use many, but I've heard of Tournaments, or even GW Stores, disallowing them. I'd check with any Tournament Organiser or Opponent before hand, but I'd never disallow you the opportunity to use Models that you've spent Money on, spent Time on, and put Effort into, no way.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/08/02 12:11:51
Subject: Do ForgeWorld rules require opponent consent?
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Dispassionate Imperial Judge
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It's opponent's consent, but then so is EVERYTHING. You never have to play a game against someone's army unless you want to, and you can refuse to play a game for any reason, from using FW models to not liking their colour scheme.
The ONLY situation this ever actually becomes a valid issue is in tournaments, and a tournament will set out what is allowed and what isn't before.
So FW models are just as 'valid' as anything from the codex.
On a related issue, I'd consider it polite to inform your opponent that you're using FW stuff in any situation.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/08/02 12:33:00
Subject: Do ForgeWorld rules require opponent consent?
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Dakka Veteran
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Anyone care to quote the line (including page number) where it says forge world stuff is "official" for regular games of 40k ?
The problem with FW stuff is their rules aren't very balanced, or seem to be play tested. They want you to buy their expensive product, so they're going to make up rules to make you want to buy it.
Allowing Forge World in 40k makes it more of a game of who's got the biggest wallett than it even is at the moment
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/08/02 12:33:38
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