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It's bigger than trade deals, the ECJ, the European commission, the Irish border etc etc
It's who we are as an island, a nation, a people...it cuts right to the heart of our identity.
It's a golden thread, a chain, that links to the Suffragettes, the Chartists, the Levellers, and even as far back as Magna Carta.
It's a continuation of that desire and yearning for freedom, for liberty, and justice.
There is a radical backbone to the nation's psyche, and that's why voting for Brexit, against a tidal wave of propaganda, was the radical thing to do.
As an old school libertarian and progressive, I almost wept at the sight of so called 'progressives' standing shoulder to shoulder with big banks and business, as they urged us to Remain.
But the working classes of Britain, God bless them, held fast, and sent the EU packing.
June 24th was one of the proudest days of my life...
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
It's bigger than trade deals, the ECJ, the European commission, the Irish border etc etc
It's who we are as an island, a nation, a people...it cuts right to the heart of our identity.
It's a golden thread, a chain, that links to the Suffragettes, the Chartists, the Levellers, and even as far back as Magna Carta.
It's a continuation of that desire and yearning for freedom, for liberty, and justice.
There is a radical backbone to the nation's psyche, and that's why voting for Brexit, against a tidal wave of propaganda, was the radical thing to do.
As an old school libertarian and progressive, I almost wept at the sight of so called 'progressives' standing shoulder to shoulder with big banks and business, as they urged us to Remain.
But the working classes of Britain, God bless them, held fast, and sent the EU packing.
June 24th was one of the proudest days of my life...
I'm sorry, but you're claiming that Remain was the side pouring out the tidal wave of propaganda? Not the gutter press like The Sun and Daily Mail and their ilk who have been consistently making up absolute bollocks about the EU for decades?
That the working class of britain have been persuaded to vote against their best interest (let's face it, the Tories aren't going to put the burden of the UK's economic difficulties post-Brexit on themselves and their financiers) is nothing to be proud of. It is akin to the poor americans who vote for Republicans so they don't get socialised healthcare.
The rest of this post is just the usual meaningless prattle which you seem to be spouting in every other post. For someone constantly decrying that the UK lacks any coherent vision or substantial plan for the future you certainly don't mind constantly posting absolutely meaningless drivel which sounds nice but has absolutely no substance. You are effectively doing the same thing as Theresa May when she was vomiting out "Red, white and blue brexit" whenever asked what her actual plan was.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/08/23 14:48:20
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
It's bigger than trade deals, the ECJ, the European commission, the Irish border etc etc
It's who we are as an island, a nation, a people...it cuts right to the heart of our identity.
It's a golden thread, a chain, that links to the Suffragettes, the Chartists, the Levellers, and even as far back as Magna Carta.
It's a continuation of that desire and yearning for freedom, for liberty, and justice.
There is a radical backbone to the nation's psyche, and that's why voting for Brexit, against a tidal wave of propaganda, was the radical thing to do.
As an old school libertarian and progressive, I almost wept at the sight of so called 'progressives' standing shoulder to shoulder with big banks and business, as they urged us to Remain.
But the working classes of Britain, God bless them, held fast, and sent the EU packing.
June 24th was one of the proudest days of my life...
Careful, if you salute any harder you may strain something.
Why the Government believes the UK’s continued membership of a reformed European Union makes us a safer and more secure country
CHAPTER 1 - INTRODUCTION
On 23 June 2016 the British people will make a historic choice - whether to remain a member of a reformed European Union (EU) on the terms agreed at the February 2016 European Council or to leave. Irrespective of the outcome, this country will continue to face serious challenges and threats to our security and our way of life from a range of sources across the globe, as well as closer to home. This document sets out the Government’s view that the best way to safeguard the safety and security of the UK and British citizens is for the UK to remain a member of a reformed EU, continuing to control its national borders as today and cooperating with EU partners where it is in the national interest to do so.
Oh good.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/23 15:50:16
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: On the subject of EU negotiations, I've been watching a lot youtube videos on what Yanis Varoufakis, the former Greek finance minister, has to say on Brexit and the EU.
He has a lot of good things to say about the EU, and a lot of bad things. Well worth the watch and recommended to anybody.
Two conclusions can be drawn from his dealings with Brussels and what he has to say about them:
1. Do not trust the EU an inch. Not one inch. They will leak, lie, and distort during these Brexit negotiations.
2. The EU are not interested in negotiations. They will pretend to negotiate, there will be the illusion of negotiations, but no actual negotiations will take place.
And yet despite his knowledge of the EU's worst aspects Varoufakis strongly backed Remain...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/23 17:21:35
People here have used a skydiving metaphor for this, and if I was to look at it that way, the EU is the plane, the UK want to get off and its the EU who is refusing us the parachute to make the exit as painless/easy as possible.
Following that metaphor through, I woudl argue that the plane in question was never intended to be for skydiving, the UK is stood at the door screaming that it wants to jump out, with the EU trying to stop them causing catastrophic depressurization, but the UK is continuing to scream "This plane is going to Madrid! I wanted to go to Barcelona! Give me a parachute. I'm leaving anyway!" Whilst the EU tries to explain that you can get an onward journey to Barcelona, but the UK is the drunk passenger that won't accept this and says they will jump anyway if the EU refuses to land where they want.
The proposals from the UK side in general have been delusional, and mostly playing to the UK leave crowd, knowing they have no plan.
Then your argument is wrong. If the plane was never meant for skydiving then Article 52 would never have been written into the constitution. We got onto that plane knowing that we could skydive.
And whether you consider the proposals as delusional, they are a starting point to which the EU response has been no. In this particular case the EU is playing to the remain crowd by saying no, they the remainers get to say look the UK has no plan. Sorry I think you may find that the leavers aren't that bothered and are quite prepared to accept the hard brexit option.
Cheers
Andrew
The problem was Article 52 was an emergency parachute intended for the possibly of throwing a rogue state out, not for countries wanting to jump ship. There was never any intention that it would involve a nice soothe gentle landing, which is why we are in the situation we are in.
So basically...The EU was never supposed to be an organisation that you can voluntarily withdraw from, once a member state you're expected to ALWAYS be a member state and the EU didn't even bother to plan and design mechanisms for the possibility of a member state withdrawal.
Lovely...Its starting to sound like a protection racket.
It's bigger than trade deals, the ECJ, the European commission, the Irish border etc etc
It's who we are as an island, a nation, a people...it cuts right to the heart of our identity.
It's a golden thread, a chain, that links to the Suffragettes, the Chartists, the Levellers, and even as far back as Magna Carta.
It's a continuation of that desire and yearning for freedom, for liberty, and justice.
There is a radical backbone to the nation's psyche, and that's why voting for Brexit, against a tidal wave of propaganda, was the radical thing to do.
As an old school libertarian and progressive, I almost wept at the sight of so called 'progressives' standing shoulder to shoulder with big banks and business, as they urged us to Remain.
But the working classes of Britain, God bless them, held fast, and sent the EU packing.
June 24th was one of the proudest days of my life...
I'm sorry, but you're claiming that Remain was the side pouring out the tidal wave of propaganda? Not the gutter press like The Sun and Daily Mail and their ilk who have been consistently making up absolute bollocks about the EU for decades?
That the working class of britain have been persuaded to vote against their best interest (let's face it, the Tories aren't going to put the burden of the UK's economic difficulties post-Brexit on themselves and their financiers) is nothing to be proud of. It is akin to the poor americans who vote for Republicans so they don't get socialised healthcare.
The rest of this post is just the usual meaningless prattle which you seem to be spouting in every other post. For someone constantly decrying that the UK lacks any coherent vision or substantial plan for the future you certainly don't mind constantly posting absolutely meaningless drivel which sounds nice but has absolutely no substance. You are effectively doing the same thing as Theresa May when she was vomiting out "Red, white and blue brexit" whenever asked what her actual plan was.
Oh look here we go again...
most leavers didnt know what they vote for
leavers are stupid
leavers are ignorant
etc etc etc
Let's assume that a vote is called where you get to choose between one of the three alternatives below. Whether the winner is decided in a second run-off between the two top alternatives, through single transferrable vote or something else is irrelevant for your accusations of loading the quesion.
The UK should accept [insert name of EU deal here] and leave the European Union. and be labelled a small minded bigoted racist
The UK should not accept [insert name of EU deal here] and leave the European Union. and be labelled a small minded bigoted racist
The UK should not accept [insert name of EU deal here] and remain in the European Union. and be labelled a fair minded liberal progressive and wonderful person
Where is the loaded question? Bear in mind that a loaded question is a question like "have you stopped beating your wife?" that makes unwarranted assumptions in such a manner that the respondee have to agree to something that isn't the subject of the question. Where am I doing that?
I've amended your questions to show how they are loaded. I tried telling you earlier, but for some reason it seem to have been missed. Whether or not you consider the questions to be open and fair minded they would be subverted via the press and social media into the above format.
Steve, Article 50 was never a parachute for ejecting a rogue state. That should have been obvious when it can only be triggered by the state in question.
Cheers
Andrew
I don't care what the flag says, I'm SCOTTISH!!!
Best definition of the word Battleship?
Mr Nobody wrote:
Does a canoe with a machine gun count?
Kerr imagined that the exit procedure might be triggered after an authoritarian leader took power in a member country and the EU responded by suspending that country’s right to vote on EU decisions.
“It seemed to me very likely that a dictatorial regime would then, in high dudgeon, want to storm out. And to have a procedure for storming out seemed to be quite a sensible thing to do — to avoid the legal chaos of going with no agreement,”
Lord Kerr, author of article 50.
insaniak wrote: Sometimes, Exterminatus is the only option.
And sometimes, it's just a case of too much scotch combined with too many buttons...
Kerr imagined that the exit procedure might be triggered after an authoritarian leader took power in a member country and the EU responded by suspending that country’s right to vote on EU decisions.
“It seemed to me very likely that a dictatorial regime would then, in high dudgeon, want to storm out. And to have a procedure for storming out seemed to be quite a sensible thing to do — to avoid the legal chaos of going with no agreement,”
Lord Kerr, author of article 50.
You did read that? Article 50 has nothing to do with throwing someone out and everything to do with someone leaving.
Cheers
Andrew
I don't care what the flag says, I'm SCOTTISH!!!
Best definition of the word Battleship?
Mr Nobody wrote:
Does a canoe with a machine gun count?
AndrewC wrote: Firstly let me apologise, I have no idea where it came from but we should be referring to Article 50 and not Article 52. Sorry about that.
Let's assume that a vote is called where you get to choose between one of the three alternatives below. Whether the winner is decided in a second run-off between the two top alternatives, through single transferrable vote or something else is irrelevant for your accusations of loading the quesion.
The UK should accept [insert name of EU deal here] and leave the European Union. and be labelled a small minded bigoted racist
The UK should not accept [insert name of EU deal here] and leave the European Union. and be labelled a small minded bigoted racist
The UK should not accept [insert name of EU deal here] and remain in the European Union. and be labelled a fair minded liberal progressive and wonderful person
Where is the loaded question? Bear in mind that a loaded question is a question like "have you stopped beating your wife?" that makes unwarranted assumptions in such a manner that the respondee have to agree to something that isn't the subject of the question. Where am I doing that?
I've amended your questions to show how they are loaded. I tried telling you earlier, but for some reason it seem to have been missed. Whether or not you consider the questions to be open and fair minded they would be subverted via the press and social media into the above format.
Steve, Article 50 was never a parachute for ejecting a rogue state. That should have been obvious when it can only be triggered by the state in question.
Cheers
Andrew
So the questions actually aren't loaded at all then, you're just adding stuff in your mind to make them so?
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
Kilkrazy wrote: Even though there is an element of truth in that, it's very unfair to characterise all Leave voters that way.
You're one to talk, you're one of the biggest proponents of the "Leavers are stupid" angle. Remember all those stats and surveys you were posting saying that Leave voters are uneducated?
Kerr imagined that the exit procedure might be triggered after an authoritarian leader took power in a member country and the EU responded by suspending that country’s right to vote on EU decisions.
“It seemed to me very likely that a dictatorial regime would then, in high dudgeon, want to storm out. And to have a procedure for storming out seemed to be quite a sensible thing to do — to avoid the legal chaos of going with no agreement,”
Lord Kerr, author of article 50.
You did read that? Article 50 has nothing to do with throwing someone out and everything to do with someone leaving.
Cheers
Andrew
Thrown/pushed. Potato/potato. Put in a position where they would have no other option as all rights would be suspended. What it's not for, as was my point, as you well know, was for countries to decide they no longer wish to be part of the club and leave gracefully and cleanly.
It's clear you have no interest in reasoned discourse, only in points scoring and going over the same old same old, so I cannot be bothered any more.
insaniak wrote: Sometimes, Exterminatus is the only option.
And sometimes, it's just a case of too much scotch combined with too many buttons...
Wishing I was back at the South Atlantic, closer to ice than the sun
AlmightyWalrus wrote: So the questions actually aren't loaded at all then, you're just adding stuff in your mind to make them so?
You're not listening are you? Everything to do with Brexit has become toxic within the UK. It doesn't matter what stance or position you take, you will be labelled in context.
It may be that because you're in Sweden you don't see the levels of hostility that can be raised with this subject or are hoping for a level of maturity in the UK. But questions, such as these, always have context. And the context of Brexit has become racism.
It doesn't matter how hard you try racism will come into it. Pro brexit are anti immigration racist bigoted members of the national front. Pro remainers are the holy people seeking the promised land cast out by the unbelievers. I thought the Scottish had the persecution complex to a fine art when it came to the English and independence, but we are amateurs compared to what's going on with leaving the EU.
Once you understand that, then any question becomes loaded.
I hope that makes the my position a little clearer as to why the original proposal was met with dismissal.
Cheers
Andrew
I don't care what the flag says, I'm SCOTTISH!!!
Best definition of the word Battleship?
Mr Nobody wrote:
Does a canoe with a machine gun count?
Wishing I was back at the South Atlantic, closer to ice than the sun
Steve steveson wrote: Thrown/pushed. Potato/potato. Put in a position where they would have no other option as all rights would be suspended. What it's not for, as was my point, as you well know, was for countries to decide they no longer wish to be part of the club and leave gracefully and cleanly.
It's clear you have no interest in reasoned discourse, only in points scoring and going over the same old same old, so I cannot be bothered any more.
I have every interest in a reasoned discussion, but I also like to be certain on the points of discussion. If article 50 is not the process for someone who wants to leave the EU, then what is? Lord Kerr has stated that it was put in to allow someone to voluntarily leave the EU of their own volition, because if there wasn't then it was impossible to leave.
Cheers
Andrew
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AlmightyWalrus wrote: If any question about Brexit is loaded you're fethed. Simple as that.
Quoted for truth!
Do you have a spare room? I may want to visit for an extended period.
Cheers
Andrew
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/23 21:08:46
I don't care what the flag says, I'm SCOTTISH!!!
Best definition of the word Battleship?
Mr Nobody wrote:
Does a canoe with a machine gun count?
Howard A Treesong wrote:The more people a government rules over, the more diluted the voice of the individual. I saw Mario's post last night and thought that it concerns primarily the well being and convenience of companies and governments, not people and workers. As power is consolidated into larger forms of government located more distantly, it is the wealthy and corporations which benefit, the power of the individual is diminished.
That's both true and false at the same time. Sure, the more people you have the more diluted one vote is but it also give you economies of scale to make things possible that just don't work on a small scale. If you have a really local government then it's easier to govern a town/city but that same government will have a hard time creating a national rail or highway system. You need government to work at an useful scale. For example the same local government is really bad at making companies pay their taxes while some theoretical world government could make tax avoidance impossible (although the question of "would they do it?" is another topic).
And when it comes to big scale governments (those concerned with hundreds of millions of people) then it looks to me like the EU is actually one of the better ones when it comes to working for the people (and not just for corporations). Of course I would have liked the EU to not feth up the 2008 recession recover with their austerity agenda, I would love it if they could make it harder for big companies to avoid taxes inside the EU just by pushing everything around, and I would love it if the EU were to offer a better safety net and more support for its citizens (and higher taxes for the rich) but I also prefer it to the US system (that's much more driven by lobbying) or the Chinese system (however that totalitarian-communist-capitalist hybrid works). In the end the scale doesn't matter too much because the main question is if the system works well for its citizens. I think the EU is one of the okay ones when it comes to actually doing something against some corporate abuse (just read about the Apple, Google, or Facebook fanboys whining about how the EU is abusing their favourite corporate overlord) but it could still do better.
It's bigger than trade deals, the ECJ, the European commission, the Irish border etc etc
It's who we are as an island, a nation, a people...it cuts right to the heart of our identity.
It's a golden thread, a chain, that links to the Suffragettes, the Chartists, the Levellers, and even as far back as Magna Carta.
It's a continuation of that desire and yearning for freedom, for liberty, and justice.
There is a radical backbone to the nation's psyche, and that's why voting for Brexit, against a tidal wave of propaganda, was the radical thing to do.
As an old school libertarian and progressive, I almost wept at the sight of so called 'progressives' standing shoulder to shoulder with big banks and business, as they urged us to Remain.
But the working classes of Britain, God bless them, held fast, and sent the EU packing.
June 24th was one of the proudest days of my life...
I'm sorry, but you're claiming that Remain was the side pouring out the tidal wave of propaganda? Not the gutter press like The Sun and Daily Mail and their ilk who have been consistently making up absolute bollocks about the EU for decades?
That the working class of britain have been persuaded to vote against their best interest (let's face it, the Tories aren't going to put the burden of the UK's economic difficulties post-Brexit on themselves and their financiers) is nothing to be proud of. It is akin to the poor americans who vote for Republicans so they don't get socialised healthcare.
The rest of this post is just the usual meaningless prattle which you seem to be spouting in every other post. For someone constantly decrying that the UK lacks any coherent vision or substantial plan for the future you certainly don't mind constantly posting absolutely meaningless drivel which sounds nice but has absolutely no substance. You are effectively doing the same thing as Theresa May when she was vomiting out "Red, white and blue brexit" whenever asked what her actual plan was.
Oh look here we go again...
most leavers didnt know what they vote for
To be fair, aside from just simply "not part of the EU", that's a perfectly accurate statement, because there wasn't any vision, proposal, roadmap, or plan for what removing the UK from the EU would entail or lead to...
Which still appears to be the case by and large.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
Kilkrazy wrote: Even though there is an element of truth in that, it's very unfair to characterise all Leave voters that way.
You're one to talk, you're one of the biggest proponents of the "Leavers are stupid" angle. Remember all those stats and surveys you were posting saying that Leave voters are uneducated?
No one has ever said that. This comment is however stupid. All surveys indicate that those with higher education levels support remaining in the EU and that by doing so will benefit the UK. They do not explain why this is the case however. It could be that as individuals those with higher qualifications see greater potential in being able to work anywhere in the EU and the freedom that brings to generate new relationships and not be limited by populist government idiot notions and "not from round here" sentiments. It could be argued that these same benefits are not seen by less educated people as they, for example, are less able to benefit from these opportunities (such as only understanding English). A lower education level does not however mean someone is stupid, yet some seem to infer that is the case. At worst it can perhaps be described that lower education limits an individual's ability to make the most of their intelligence as they have less training in how to apply it. However I repeat mixing the concept of cleverness and education *is* a stupid thing to do as it either willfully or unknowingly confusing two different concepts.
It doesn't matter how hard you try racism will come into it. Pro brexit are anti immigration racist bigoted members of the national front. Pro remainers are the holy people seeking the promised land cast out by the unbelievers. I thought the Scottish had the persecution complex to a fine art when it came to the English and independence, but we are amateurs compared to what's going on with leaving the EU.
This is just emotional tripe. There are significant concerns that the decision to leave was swayed by those with anti immigration sentiments. You only have to look at UKIPs posters on Brexit to see that they tried to influence those with such feelings. The anti immigration vote almost certainly swayed the result, but that doesn't mean everyone is. However it does appear to 'galvanised' certain groups and that for some has emboldened them to express bigotry and racism in ways that previously would have been classified as such (those that grumbled about is quietly are now more open and so on). It does not mean they are all members of the national front. I can point to examples in my own family where they didn't want to use a lawyers firm as to quote "they were all Asians" that even a couple of years ago wouldn't have been expressed. You can daily browse the BBC comments to find similar views. In some ways Brexit has become anti immigration rhetoric because simply these people are the ones shouting loudest (and those opposed to it are therefore fighting back as they do not trust the government) because we have a Tory government actively promoting anti immigration policies whilst trying to tell people not to follow their example.
In some ways the Brexit vote was in itself bigoted because it excluded about 3% of the population from voting - which are now being offered settled rights. On day one of leaving the EU another referendum would give the opposite result simply as those given settled rights would then be allowed to vote on the issue. Yet despite this such people will never get a say if the current government continues.
Finally I'd point out that whilst in Canada and the US I've had some anecodotal views of the U.K. And it's direction and the message is clear. The opinion we are giving people around the world is that we have become a petty self centred bigoted nation. This is likely to be unfair for a large proportion of the population, but many of those loudly supporting Brexit are bigots and racists and is giving the impression that the uk is no longer friendly or welcoming. The nation is in effect being tarnished by what the country has let Brexit become about.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/08/24 06:50:56
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
Also a) if voting leave is such an unpopular, shameful thing, why did so many do it? Your assertion that people won't vote to leave is demonstrably false, as the arguments haven't changed since last year.
b) your portrayal of remain voters being seen as the "good" side is also false. We are frequently and vocally branded as spineless, wishy-washy, liberal traitors. The judges who ruled that our government had to obey our own laws were branded as "enemies of the state" FFS!
Zed wrote: *All statements reflect my opinion at this moment. if some sort of pretty new model gets released (or if I change my mind at random) I reserve the right to jump on any bandwagon at will.
Wishing I was back at the South Atlantic, closer to ice than the sun
Whirlwind, I'm not sure whether your contradicting me or agreeing with me. You start of calling it tripe and then perfectly illustrating the point that the situation is no longer logic but emotion at this stage.
Jadenim. Firstly I don't think anyone thought that leave would win, and a lot of it was a protest vote. This labelling of voters has only really come about after the results. Name calling if you like because some people didn't like the results and so wanted to belittle the opposition to explain why they lost. Yes my portrayal of one side good other side bad is a little on the extreme side, but it better illustrated what I was trying to get across. The insults are passing both ways.
Cheers
Andrew
I don't care what the flag says, I'm SCOTTISH!!!
Best definition of the word Battleship?
Mr Nobody wrote:
Does a canoe with a machine gun count?
I wonder how many people voted Leave as a protest and would vote Remain if given the chance of a second referendum, now that the difficulties associated with leaving are more apparent.
Radio 4 had an interesting piece this morning with Jon Snow, who did a major speech last night about how the mainstream media is out of touch with "ordinary people".
But we've still got our Nationalistic Pride and "Sovereignty" to give control to unaccountable oligarchs.... Rule Brittania, Leading the way to the bottom.
Thousand Sons: 3850pts / Space Marines Deathwatch 5000pts / Dark Eldar Webway Corsairs 2000pts / Scrapheap Challenged Orks 1500pts / Black Death 1500pts
It's bigger than trade deals, the ECJ, the European commission, the Irish border etc etc
It's who we are as an island, a nation, a people...it cuts right to the heart of our identity.
It's a golden thread, a chain, that links to the Suffragettes, the Chartists, the Levellers, and even as far back as Magna Carta.
It's a continuation of that desire and yearning for freedom, for liberty, and justice.
There is a radical backbone to the nation's psyche, and that's why voting for Brexit, against a tidal wave of propaganda, was the radical thing to do.
As an old school libertarian and progressive, I almost wept at the sight of so called 'progressives' standing shoulder to shoulder with big banks and business, as they urged us to Remain.
But the working classes of Britain, God bless them, held fast, and sent the EU packing.
June 24th was one of the proudest days of my life...
Long time lurker in the thread here - just a curious question to DINLT: Are you, by chance, planning to run for local government at some point? Because, to be honest, the last few weeks sometimes sounded like you're trying out different forms of patriotic, catchy phrases to convince citizens to vote for your side.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/24 19:16:59
Witzkatz wrote: Long time lurker in the thread here - just a curious question to DINLT: Are you, by chance, planning to run for local government at some point? Because, to be honest, the last few weeks sometimes sounded like you're trying out different forms of patriotic, catchy phrases to convince citizens to vote for your side.
Why do I always get these questions?
I have no interest in running for political office.
Just because I'm anti-EU, doesn't make me anti-European. The EU and Europe are not one and the same, and as I've said before, the EU deserves some credit for convincing people that the line between the two is blurred. It's a masterful propaganda exercise on the EU's part.
I love Europe, I've travelled all over, and have some wonderful memories of a great continent, and it's because I love Europe so much that I'm opposed to the EU.
If you isolate ordinary people from those leaders and institutions that rule them, and block them off with extra layers (ECJ, commisions this, comissions that) then people become bitter and detached from the decision making process.
It's everywhere, and it's been going on for years. People like Trump and Farage are symptoms of this. Sadly, the EU elite, and the elite in each nation cannot see this, so the resentment boils, and boils, and boils, and will burst one day...
Hopefully, it will be quick like the downfall of the Soviet Union, but with the EU? I don't know.
I don't want trouble or violence in Europe. Never! And I don't doubt the good intentions of the original founders. Who can argue against peace in Europe? Not I.
But the EU is going down a path that I fear will lead to trouble. The people that run the EU are fools, but sadly, they are the worst type of fools: fools with good intentions, and that will make it worse.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
Post 2017/08/24 19:59:51 Subject: Re:The UK General Election
Witzkatz wrote:
Long time lurker in the thread here - just a curious question to DINLT: Are you, by chance, planning to run for local government at some point? Because, to be honest, the last few weeks sometimes sounded like you're trying out different forms of patriotic, catchy phrases to convince citizens to vote for your side.
Why do I always get these questions?
I have no interest in running for political office.
Just because I'm anti-EU, doesn't make me anti-European. The EU and Europe are not one and the same, and as I've said before, the EU deserves some credit for convincing people that the line between the two is blurred. It's a masterful propaganda exercise on the EU's part.
I love Europe, I've travelled all over, and have some wonderful memories of a great continent, and it's because I love Europe so much that I'm opposed to the EU.
If you isolate ordinary people from those leaders and institutions that rule them, and block them off with extra layers (ECJ, commisions this, comissions that) then people become bitter and detached from the decision making process.
It's everywhere, and it's been going on for years. People like Trump and Farage are symptoms of this. Sadly, the EU elite, and the elite in each nation cannot see this, so the resentment boils, and boils, and boils, and will burst one day...
Hopefully, it will be quick like the downfall of the Soviet Union, but with the EU? I don't know.
I don't want trouble or violence in Europe. Never! And I don't doubt the good intentions of the original founders. Who can argue against peace in Europe? Not I.
But the EU is going down a path that I fear will lead to trouble. The people that run the EU are fools, but sadly, they are the worst type of fools: fools with good intentions, and that will make it worse.
I understand and agree that the more levels and hurdles you put between the citizen and the highest levels of government, there will be feelings of detachment. I'm much more inclined myself to bother with the problems of my home town and my state, less with German national politics, to be honest - I think it's a tribal part of human nature.
However, if the world is supposed to continue developing not only on a technological level, but also on a political level, I think the concept of a more united Europe does not HAVE to be a bad thing from the get go. I see that it can be viewed as such, and I see the problems with the EU. What I'm trying to say is, I think it's worth giving a try, and not every try has to be foolish or foolhardy. Some EU officials might be in it for money, cronyism and power; others, though, might be in it because they genuinely try to steer our little continent through the trials of the next century. Instead of wishing for its downfall, I'd prefer to make the effort and try to identify and vote in those people who seem like the most competent and trustworthy and stabilize this thing.
(I don't think I have to add that I'd have preferred the UK to stay in the EU and try to solve issues WITH it from within instead of leaving the rest of its members to do or die after this post eh )
Thousand Sons: 3850pts / 
Space Marines Deathwatch 5000pts / 
Dark Eldar Webway Corsairs 2000pts / 
Scrapheap Challenged Orks 1500pts / 
Black Death 1500pts
