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Silentz wrote: It's not super hard to kill one ranger though, is it? Feels like this tactic sounds good on paper but in reality you will get 1 ranger plinked dead and then you're toast.
Also what people aren't twigging is that if you're stuck up a building, you can't fall back out of combat.
Take casualties from the middle first. And most ruins aren't that big, especially second floor ruins, so you don't truly even need all 5ish dudes to cover the area. I have a hunch this ruling may not last.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/20 17:43:29
Alright, trying to keep the admech dream alive. I think I found my new soup. Guard is dead. Long live slamguinius. 12 base CP, I spend 1 before game starts and give WLT and relic to slam. Then I have 11 CP to spend on either slam or the dakkabots to lay the pain train. This is 1332 points of admech, which is more than I previously ran.
Wulfey wrote: Alright, trying to keep the admech dream alive. I think I found my new soup. Guard is dead. Long live slamguinius. 12 base CP, I spend 1 before game starts and give WLT and relic to slam. Then I have 11 CP to spend on either slam or the dakkabots to lay the pain train. This is 1332 points of admech, which is more than I previously ran.
Wulfey wrote: Alright, trying to keep the admech dream alive. I think I found my new soup. Guard is dead. Long live slamguinius. 12 base CP, I spend 1 before game starts and give WLT and relic to slam. Then I have 11 CP to spend on either slam or the dakkabots to lay the pain train. This is 1332 points of admech, which is more than I previously ran.
Doesn't matter - your chargers can pop right up in the middle of them. Whatever you are charging in will presumably kill something (otherwise why are you bothering?) and then more can consolidate up.
The worst they can probably do is take from the opposite side to where you are, so your charge is longer.
TO of Death Before Dishonour - A Warhammer 40k Tournament with a focus on great battles between well painted, thematic armies on tables with full terrain.
Doesn't matter - your chargers can pop right up in the middle of them. Whatever you are charging in will presumably kill something (otherwise why are you bothering?) and then more can consolidate up.
The worst they can probably do is take from the opposite side to where you are, so your charge is longer.
Going to be hard for them to pop in and still be outside of 1" from every dude you have. We use mostly GW terrain at my LGS too, and those top floors are especially tight.
Also, with Stygies and Canticles, they'd have to put a fair amount of shooting to clear a spot, which is good.
LexOdin9 wrote: I like how my Celestine aux has been spreading about amongst my fellow admech players. (maybe we had the same idea at about the same time?)
If I had 45-51 points I would put some bolter girls with her. But I think it is worth spending 1CP to make sure that I have more raw firepower in the main detachments. And yes, celestine is really needed with admech. When I left her at home, I went 1-2. When I brought her, I was 2-1 and sometimes even 3-0. She brings way way too much to the table to not be brought.
LexOdin9 wrote: I like how my Celestine aux has been spreading about amongst my fellow admech players. (maybe we had the same idea at about the same time?)
If I had 45-51 points I would put some bolter girls with her. But I think it is worth spending 1CP to make sure that I have more raw firepower in the main detachments. And yes, celestine is really needed with admech. When I left her at home, I went 1-2. When I brought her, I was 2-1 and sometimes even 3-0. She brings way way too much to the table to not be brought.
I agree, I also think rangers are more valuable than bolter girls since the ranger rifles have (1) longer range, (2) are cheaper, (3) can get the same 3+ save from cover, (4) can potentially be more accurate, (5) can potentially get AP -1 on a roll of 6, which is in total enough for me to never want to bring Sisters troops.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/20 23:46:54
Sigh. The only reason for us to run fluffy Iron Hands...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wulfey wrote: Alright, trying to keep the admech dream alive. I think I found my new soup. Guard is dead. Long live slamguinius. 12 base CP, I spend 1 before game starts and give WLT and relic to slam. Then I have 11 CP to spend on either slam or the dakkabots to lay the pain train. This is 1332 points of admech, which is more than I previously ran.
I don't think you're allowed to have Geminae in an Auxiliary detachment. One unit only, which is Celestine.
While Slamguinius, Mephiston, 3x5 Scouts + Celestine Aux is interesting, I do question if it is worth giving up 2 Commanders, 30 Infantry + 6x Dragoons Aux. I actually think we're giving up what we are good at to shore up a weakness we may no longer have. You can just castle up if you're really that afraid of a turn one berserker charge.
Here's the pro/cons in my mind for doing Slamguinius:
+Scout deployment
+Uses Psychic phase
+Slightly higher wounds volume
-No turn one alpha strike
-No CP recycling
-Higher starting CP cost
-Low strength wounds
-Lower body count
-Narrower castle
-A lot of "eggs in one basket"
-Not very fluffy (if you care about that sort of thing)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/21 01:14:20
If you don't think the new ruins rules are very easily abuseable - you're a bad player.
Even if they kill 1 ranger, they can still only hit you with 1 model in melee and you can hit him with the entire unit almost
Going to be hard for them to pop in and still be outside of 1" from every dude you have. We use mostly GW terrain at my LGS too, and those top floors are especially tight.
Also, with Stygies and Canticles, they'd have to put a fair amount of shooting to clear a spot, which is good.
Hold on MNOP - we're not talking about walking up the ruin so you have to stay outside 1"... we're talking about charging into the ruin so they have to be within 1".
rvd1ofakind wrote:
If you don't think the new ruins rules are very easily abuseable - you're a bad player.
Even if they kill 1 ranger, they can still only hit you with 1 model in melee and you can hit him with the entire unit almost
Ok so... what unit are your rangers being charged with in this scenario? What exciting, kickass melee unit that wants to eat your rangers alive is fighting here where they do no damage and you do loads? I would say the "Bad player" is the person charging Rangers - a unit that is AWFUL in melee - with something thats even more awful.
However let's say... they attack with something good like genestealers, for the sake of argument. One genestealer is going to kill 1-3 of your rangers, and his mates can then pile in up the ruin. Your squad is now down to 2-4 rangers and they are not going to do much in return.
Look on the other side of this... I'll be the player with Transuranic Arquebus snipers up in a ruin. You can attack me with trash tier melee units and lock me up - as long as you've got 1 model in combat and the rest of the unit beneath me, I'm stuck in combat and the expensive guns are useless.
There are tactics both ends of this and although it is gameable under certain circumstances, if you're attacking with a melee unit that is good, I wouldnt be too worried about it.
You do need to shoot space to melee first though - that's the only thing.
BTW your questions on Signals from the Frontline had me laughing. Reece all "I dont even know what that question means!" lol
TO of Death Before Dishonour - A Warhammer 40k Tournament with a focus on great battles between well painted, thematic armies on tables with full terrain.
Reece quite often is terrible at reading questions...
And if genestealers spend 2-3 turns killing me instead of 1 AND they have to shoot 1-2 guys of a ruin - where do I sign up?
Also a warlord can sit on the top floor and deny slay the warlord because it'll be quite hard to have him as the closest target especially with high AP guns as those tend to be artillery
Either way, me and my FLGS found this rule really really stupid and will play as before - wobbly model
rvd1ofakind wrote: Reece quite often is terrible at reading questions...
And if genestealers spend 2-3 turns killing me instead of 1 AND they have to shoot 1-2 guys of a ruin - where do I sign up?
Also a warlord can sit on the top floor and deny slay the warlord because it'll be quite hard to have him as the closest target especially with high AP guns as those tend to be artillery
Either way, me and my FLGS found this rule really really stupid and will play as before - wobbly model
Has nothing to do with wobbly model. That one is still in the game btw. You just play the way that you can attack although you cant position your models. Just like it should be played.
Personally I think that fly units are so so so good right now. coming to think about dropping in a unit of custodes bikers that are 9 inches away (diagonally) from a unit up in a building and now I can charge for what, 2 to 3 inches since fly units ignore diagonal movement? yes please
wobbly model is for a model that you can place but would fall over because of uneven ground.
Not for models hanging in air with 0.01mm of their base touching a floor.
If I'm looking at getting some kataphron destroyers, what's the best loadout for them? I know they're not amazing but they look cool and I figured it'd be fun to have a unit to paint.
From what I could tell grav/phosphor lines up well, but the plasma seems really random and risky, with the flamers being more expensive and situational.
'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader
"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell
MrMoustaffa wrote: If I'm looking at getting some kataphron destroyers, what's the best loadout for them? I know they're not amazing but they look cool and I figured it'd be fun to have a unit to paint.
From what I could tell grav/phosphor lines up well, but the plasma seems really random and risky, with the flamers being more expensive and situational.
I've never regretted my plasma Destroyers. I've melted a 800 pts Farsight bomb with these dudes and 1 Robot on Elimination Volley with overcharged plasma. I rolled more than 12 shots though so yes it's quite random, but when it works your opponent will curse them.
Grav is nice against elite multi-wound models, I've found them perfect against Rubric because they negate their +1 to save against single damage weapons. Flamers are too costly, I keep it cheap with the phosphor even if it doesn't kill much. My Kataphrons always died to shooting anyway.
6 Dragoons infiltrated gotta be the best bad ass play of the game post faq. Set them 12" from enemies for a superb -2 and a jere cost of 400ish points. Superb lethal best of!!!
The reason why I insist on the scouts is that the turn 1 infiltration/assault tricks still exist, they are just more complicated to execute than they were. Veil, Deceiver, Infiltrate, Vangaurd, Alpha Legion, all these things can still show up on your deployment line turn 1. If you don't have scouts, these things will eat you. I used to just take the scouts and use Celestine/Commander instead of Slam/Meph, but I can't do that anymore. So if I need scouts to get to 3-0, and I need to put 2 space marine HQs in there, what do I put in those slots? I can't think of any space marine HQs that can possibly compete with Slam/Meph. Yes they want a lot of CP, but they are very good at turning that CP into damage. I basically have a choice of 3 things from this list of components:
If I don't run (1), what am I doing here. I am admech. I insist on scouts based on my discussion above, so why not get the 2 best HQs I can, so I take (2). So now we get to (3) Cel versus (4) guard. Here is the thing about guard, every point of shooting there competes with my admech shooting. I brought guard because I needed something to hit something hiding out of LOS. But Slam/Meph/Cel can do that job too.
Now there is something I might run on a larf in a test game before it gets nerfed. Consider the following yet-to-be-nerfed admech soup detachment. Do I really need that second canticle?
Cawl MARS, Enginseer GRAIA [6+/6+ WLT, +1CP relic, gives access to 4+ deny strategem]
3x5 MARS rangers
1x6 MARS dakkabots
1x4 STYGIES dragoons [now I can infiltrate them without eating a detachment]
This leaves my other 2 detachments to be Celestine and Slam/Meph/Scouts. This would be the heaviest hitting imperium melee list in the game at this point. Talk about a terrifying turn 1 melee death strike! Slam covers 27" on average using the strategem, the dragoons are 9" away, and Celestine can fly 24". The funny thing about stacking all those things is that Slam is pretty much the perfect helper for dragoons because he is immune to overwatch and can let dragoons get into combat against things that would waste them in overwatch.
Wulfey wrote: The reason why I insist on the scouts is that the turn 1 infiltration/assault tricks still exist, they are just more complicated to execute than they were. Veil, Deceiver, Infiltrate, Vangaurd, Alpha Legion, all these things can still show up on your deployment line turn 1. If you don't have scouts, these things will eat you. I used to just take the scouts and use Celestine/Commander instead of Slam/Meph, but I can't do that anymore. So if I need scouts to get to 3-0, and I need to put 2 space marine HQs in there, what do I put in those slots? I can't think of any space marine HQs that can possibly compete with Slam/Meph. Yes they want a lot of CP, but they are very good at turning that CP into damage. I basically have a choice of 3 things from this list of components:
If I don't run (1), what am I doing here. I am admech. I insist on scouts based on my discussion above, so why not get the 2 best HQs I can, so I take (2). So now we get to (3) Cel versus (4) guard. Here is the thing about guard, every point of shooting there competes with my admech shooting. I brought guard because I needed something to hit something hiding out of LOS. But Slam/Meph/Cel can do that job too.
Now there is something I might run on a larf in a test game before it gets nerfed. Consider the following yet-to-be-nerfed admech soup detachment. Do I really need that second canticle?
Cawl MARS, Enginseer GRAIA [6+/6+ WLT, +1CP relic, gives access to 4+ deny strategem]
3x5 MARS rangers
1x6 MARS dakkabots
1x4 STYGIES dragoons [now I can infiltrate them without eating a detachment]
This leaves my other 2 detachments to be Celestine and Slam/Meph/Scouts. This would be the heaviest hitting imperium melee list in the game at this point. Talk about a terrifying turn 1 melee death strike! Slam covers 27" on average using the strategem, the dragoons are 9" away, and Celestine can fly 24". The funny thing about stacking all those things is that Slam is pretty much the perfect helper for dragoons because he is immune to overwatch and can let dragoons get into combat against things that would waste them in overwatch.
In my meta we have officially gone over to beer and pretzels, Me and a buddy drew up a campaign. While deep strike shenanigans turn one are somewhat harder to pull off in normal games, we have a few ways that allow players to deep strike entire armies in one turn.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/21 23:00:06
The reason why I insist on the scouts is that the turn 1 infiltration/assault tricks still exist, they are just more complicated to execute than they were. Veil, Deceiver, Infiltrate, Vangaurd, Alpha Legion, all these things can still show up on your deployment line turn 1. If you don't have scouts, these things will eat you. I used to just take the scouts and use Celestine/Commander instead of Slam/Meph, but I can't do that anymore. So if I need scouts to get to 3-0, and I need to put 2 space marine HQs in there, what do I put in those slots? I can't think of any space marine HQs that can possibly compete with Slam/Meph. Yes they want a lot of CP, but they are very good at turning that CP into damage. I basically have a choice of 3 things from this list of components:
If I don't run (1), what am I doing here. I am admech. I insist on scouts based on my discussion above, so why not get the 2 best HQs I can, so I take (2). So now we get to (3) Cel versus (4) guard. Here is the thing about guard, every point of shooting there competes with my admech shooting. I brought guard because I needed something to hit something hiding out of LOS. But Slam/Meph/Cel can do that job too.
Now there is something I might run on a larf in a test game before it gets nerfed. Consider the following yet-to-be-nerfed admech soup detachment. Do I really need that second canticle?
Cawl MARS, Enginseer GRAIA [6+/6+ WLT, +1CP relic, gives access to 4+ deny strategem]
3x5 MARS rangers
1x6 MARS dakkabots
1x4 STYGIES dragoons [now I can infiltrate them without eating a detachment]
This leaves my other 2 detachments to be Celestine and Slam/Meph/Scouts. This would be the heaviest hitting imperium melee list in the game at this point. Talk about a terrifying turn 1 melee death strike! Slam covers 27" on average using the strategem, the dragoons are 9" away, and Celestine can fly 24". The funny thing about stacking all those things is that Slam is pretty much the perfect helper for dragoons because he is immune to overwatch and can let dragoons get into combat against things that would waste them in overwatch.
Just so I'm sure I understand, no one in this detachment is benefitting from doctrines - instead you're taking the different forge worlds for their relics and stratagems (and Mars for the cawl bubble). Is that correct?
Only other thing is the +1 CP relic is only available to a Dominus
Wulfey wrote: The reason why I insist on the scouts is that the turn 1 infiltration/assault tricks still exist, they are just more complicated to execute than they were. Veil, Deceiver, Infiltrate, Vangaurd, Alpha Legion, all these things can still show up on your deployment line turn 1. If you don't have scouts, these things will eat you. I used to just take the scouts and use Celestine/Commander instead of Slam/Meph, but I can't do that anymore. So if I need scouts to get to 3-0, and I need to put 2 space marine HQs in there, what do I put in those slots? I can't think of any space marine HQs that can possibly compete with Slam/Meph. Yes they want a lot of CP, but they are very good at turning that CP into damage. I basically have a choice of 3 things from this list of components:
If I don't run (1), what am I doing here. I am admech. I insist on scouts based on my discussion above, so why not get the 2 best HQs I can, so I take (2). So now we get to (3) Cel versus (4) guard. Here is the thing about guard, every point of shooting there competes with my admech shooting. I brought guard because I needed something to hit something hiding out of LOS. But Slam/Meph/Cel can do that job too.
Now there is something I might run on a larf in a test game before it gets nerfed. Consider the following yet-to-be-nerfed admech soup detachment. Do I really need that second canticle?
Cawl MARS, Enginseer GRAIA [6+/6+ WLT, +1CP relic, gives access to 4+ deny strategem]
3x5 MARS rangers
1x6 MARS dakkabots
1x4 STYGIES dragoons [now I can infiltrate them without eating a detachment]
This leaves my other 2 detachments to be Celestine and Slam/Meph/Scouts. This would be the heaviest hitting imperium melee list in the game at this point. Talk about a terrifying turn 1 melee death strike! Slam covers 27" on average using the strategem, the dragoons are 9" away, and Celestine can fly 24". The funny thing about stacking all those things is that Slam is pretty much the perfect helper for dragoons because he is immune to overwatch and can let dragoons get into combat against things that would waste them in overwatch.
Don't you run into CP issues with how hungry both the BA and AdMech can be?
So on the CP issues, I think I have just barely enough for 2 rounds of wrath of mars and 1 double swing from slamguinius. 12 base CP from 2x battalion, 3, and -1 from Cel. Make slam the WL for the free relic, -1 to give him black rage. -1 for the robots to override. Either -2 to make slam move on turn 1, or -3 to make him UWOF 3d6. -4 for 2 rounds of wrath of mars. And then either -2 or -3 to have slam swing again. That leaves 1 more CP to save for rerolling Cel's resurrection. I really need to get in a test game this weekend somehow to prepare for next weekend. I am packing up my models now, who knows, maybe someone is at game kastle.
Hmm too bad about not having that graia relic. I really needed that to work. Back to the drawing board I guess.
Wulfey wrote: So on the CP issues, I think I have just barely enough for 2 rounds of wrath of mars and 1 double swing from slamguinius. 12 base CP from 2x battalion, 3, and -1 from Cel. Make slam the WL for the free relic, -1 to give him black rage. -1 for the robots to override. Either -2 to make slam move on turn 1, or -3 to make him UWOF 3d6. -4 for 2 rounds of wrath of mars. And then either -2 or -3 to have slam swing again. That leaves 1 more CP to save for rerolling Cel's resurrection. I really need to get in a test game this weekend somehow to prepare for next weekend. I am packing up my models now, who knows, maybe someone is at game kastle.
Hmm too bad about not having that graia relic. I really needed that to work. Back to the drawing board I guess.
Can you free up enough points to run Celestine in a patrol? That'd give you an extra CP
Wulfey wrote: So on the CP issues, I think I have just barely enough for 2 rounds of wrath of mars and 1 double swing from slamguinius. 12 base CP from 2x battalion, 3, and -1 from Cel. Make slam the WL for the free relic, -1 to give him black rage. -1 for the robots to override. Either -2 to make slam move on turn 1, or -3 to make him UWOF 3d6. -4 for 2 rounds of wrath of mars. And then either -2 or -3 to have slam swing again. That leaves 1 more CP to save for rerolling Cel's resurrection. I really need to get in a test game this weekend somehow to prepare for next weekend. I am packing up my models now, who knows, maybe someone is at game kastle.
Hmm too bad about not having that graia relic. I really needed that to work. Back to the drawing board I guess.
Can you free up enough points to run Celestine in a patrol? That'd give you an extra CP
You're always going to lose something either way. The point to running the Aux is to maximize your point efficiency, at the cost of 1 CP. Is 1 CP worth an army that does a bit less damage total per point spent?
Also, what will you cut? It's really hard to figure that out.
Wulfey wrote: So on the CP issues, I think I have just barely enough for 2 rounds of wrath of mars and 1 double swing from slamguinius. 12 base CP from 2x battalion, 3, and -1 from Cel. Make slam the WL for the free relic, -1 to give him black rage. -1 for the robots to override. Either -2 to make slam move on turn 1, or -3 to make him UWOF 3d6. -4 for 2 rounds of wrath of mars. And then either -2 or -3 to have slam swing again. That leaves 1 more CP to save for rerolling Cel's resurrection. I really need to get in a test game this weekend somehow to prepare for next weekend. I am packing up my models now, who knows, maybe someone is at game kastle.
Hmm too bad about not having that graia relic. I really needed that to work. Back to the drawing board I guess.
Can you free up enough points to run Celestine in a patrol? That'd give you an extra CP
You're always going to lose something either way. The point to running the Aux is to maximize your point efficiency, at the cost of 1 CP. Is 1 CP worth an army that does a bit less damage total per point spent?
Also, what will you cut? It's really hard to figure that out.
Well if the list is running Vanguard or Rangers, Sisters can be pretty cheap blocking wounds too.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Wulfey wrote: So on the CP issues, I think I have just barely enough for 2 rounds of wrath of mars and 1 double swing from slamguinius. 12 base CP from 2x battalion, 3, and -1 from Cel. Make slam the WL for the free relic, -1 to give him black rage. -1 for the robots to override. Either -2 to make slam move on turn 1, or -3 to make him UWOF 3d6. -4 for 2 rounds of wrath of mars. And then either -2 or -3 to have slam swing again. That leaves 1 more CP to save for rerolling Cel's resurrection. I really need to get in a test game this weekend somehow to prepare for next weekend. I am packing up my models now, who knows, maybe someone is at game kastle.
Hmm too bad about not having that graia relic. I really needed that to work. Back to the drawing board I guess.
I don’t know much about blood angels. But with your graia idea, can you not just stick a relic on on slam for the cost of a command point and chance your luck on the enginseers 6+6+ to get them back?
That way you still get all your shiny blood angels toys and a good chance of being able to do your melee bomb shenanigans as well as nuke bots?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh just been reading up on slam. All his good stuff happens if he’s the WL. Gotcha
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/22 08:55:28
And most ruins aren't that big, especially second floor ruins, so you don't truly even need all 5ish dudes to cover the area. I have a hunch this ruling may not last.
