Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I've heard of a few programs that many TO's use to run their tournaments and Im curious on everyone's opinion on which is the most efficient, easiest to use and in general the best. Please post your thoughts!

I just use an excel spreadsheet

I recommend OVERLORD, an independently developed program designed for this specific purpose.

THIS THREAD on WargamerAU should point you in the right direction - it is not available from the website at the moment due to a new version coming out soon, but the people you need to contact in the meantime are in this thread.

I looked at overlord and it looks nice.. but that price is a killer. If you run 1 tournament a month with 30 people you're looking at a license costing 324$ a year

People bitch about army builder being a 30$ investment..

I think WoTC has a free system out that they use for MTG. Its a swiss style system.

Granted it will only work with a W/L/D style tournament and it will use strength of schedule for tie breakers.

However it is free and really easy to use.

We use swiss perfect.

I've written a program that does most everything. It will allow you to define different scoring methods, have both player (per game) and judge (per tournament) scoring.

It will make pairings based on your group (for the first round) and then by battle points (or total if you so desire) for successive rounds.

It will also assure that players don't get duplicate opponents, or duplicate tables.

It will print pairings and results.

It runs on PC's or Mac's

It's free.

It's not perfect, but I'm working on it off and on.

Known problems are that initial scoring schemes can be difficult to set up, but it runs quite well, and the default scoring scheme is pretty easy to modify and ubiquitous.

Oh, and as for the "just use a spreadsheet" response? Sorry Mondo, but the time it takes to make pairings so that you don't get duplicate players and duplicate tables is way too much. Using a spreadsheet will keep your players waiting on the organizers, and keep everyone there longer than they need to be.

Here are the links;

Download the instructions

Download the software

If you can find it, there's an older version of Overlord that is freeware. Its got some bugs (mostly database related) and it sounds like the new version owned by RankingsHQ is more stable -- but it's too costly for frequent tournaments.

I have also used excel but its not ideal for certain tasks (avoiding the same table assignment and opponent). You can setup some checks though that make it a bit less time consuming. Really unwieldy though for larger tournaments unless you are a wiz with pivot tables or macros or something.

Swiss perfect seems pretty good as far as matchups and tie breaks, but doesn't seem ideal if running battlepoint a style tournament. I am still gonna try it out in a very small club tournament this weekend.

Kirasu wrote:I looked at overlord and it looks nice.. but that price is a killer. If you run 1 tournament a month with 30 people you're looking at a license costing 324$ a year

People bitch about army builder being a 30$ investment..

Oh... Version 1 was free, but I see now they've stopped offering it for download. Dig around and you might be able to find a copy... bummer.

barontuman wrote:I've written a program that does most everything. It will allow you to define different scoring methods, have both player (per game) and judge (per tournament) scoring.

It will make pairings based on your group (for the first round) and then by battle points (or total if you so desire) for successive rounds.

It will also assure that players don't get duplicate opponents, or duplicate tables.

It will print pairings and results.

It runs on PC's or Mac's

It's free.

It's not perfect, but I'm working on it off and on.

Known problems are that initial scoring schemes can be difficult to set up, but it runs quite well, and the default scoring scheme is pretty easy to modify and ubiquitous.

Oh, and as for the "just use a spreadsheet" response? Sorry Mondo, but the time it takes to make pairings so that you don't get duplicate players and duplicate tables is way too much. Using a spreadsheet will keep your players waiting on the organizers, and keep everyone there longer than they need to be.

Here are the links;

Download the instructions

Download the software

This looks quite reasonable, with that 'Vassal' feel. Great work. Overlord looks quite good, but I suppose you could have two or three separate files Kirasu, for the different parts of the tournament, then another for the final. Just a suggestion to save money!

Just want to throw in my quick thanks to Barontuman for posting the Tournament Marshal program. Quite easy to implement and our organizer had laptop issues so I provided the program and my laptop for use in our local Ard boyz. While it wouldn't assign tables the first round for some reason(eassily fixed with a few dice rolls to manually randomize first pairings) it worked like a charm for the second two rounds and made tallying who was where and assigning tables (that folks had not yet played on) and pairings by points in mere seconds. I like how it adjusted to our event with no issues, and could even let us manually move pairings around when the number of people shifted. I also like the ability to save tournaments so we cna keep a log of how different armies and players are doing in our area with no extra work. Very nice for an app provided for free. So thanks again!

I'm currently working on a program, literally as I type this I have the dev environment open.

This will be for the Northern Warlords event in the coming month and will replace last years excel spreadsheet. I was wondering what functionality people actually want out of such a piece of software?

Currently mine'll have teams, table allocations, customisable scoring, bs score checker (er, I mean validation of entry to catch user errors).

I'm also planning to have the following extra functionality:

An option that will allow players to enter their own scores rather than hand them in (freeing up the tournament staff and making round turnaround quicker).

A "check out my score" function, allowing a player to check out their current position, scorings, past match ups and also those of any other player (or team) at the event.

A rolling display showing current top 10 ranking, current team rankings, time until the round ends and maybe other stuff.

We'll be running 40k and WHFB at the event, to the ability to have two (or more) events in one system.

It'll run off a DB so I can have loads of machines connected to it to enter score, run displays to projectors etc again to reduce turnaround time.

Overlord is nice, but the event has something like 200 entrants, putting that beyond our budget and anyway I wanted a coding project to play with.

So, what would you want in a tourney organiser program?

The biggest thing I want is the ability to own a full copy of the software. (no paying for each tournament)

Well i'll make mine available when it's finished although as I'm not getting paid:

1: I wont support it. If it crashes your PC, wipes a clients Database, fries your cat and leaves a mars bar trodden in to your carpet, tough.

2: Unless I can be arsed to convert it to MySQL your gonna have to use MSSQL Server.

3: I am very, very unlikely to create any kind of installer so you'd get some DB Scripts and a couple of executables. Creating the DB and configing it to work would not be my problem.

Dont mind paying for software just don't want to have to pay for every event. (or any time I am trying to do fake events to get people up to speed for running the event)

Seems Wolflair is coming up with a program as well:

http://www.wolflair.com/index.php?context=tournament_ace

If it's anywhere near reasonable, I'll probably buy a license for it.

@Mephistoles1

Thanks for the kind words, and I'm glad that it worked for you.

@Koppo

Good luck on your program. I'll be working on a second version with many of the features that you're describing. Good luck with them.

I intend to use MySQL as a start so that you don't have to buy SQLServer. Using a database will allow a lot of extra functionality like you describe. In fact, I'm even considering allowing mobile devices (like cell phones) to allow data entry. This would allow players as well as judges to enter in their scores, get updates, see when the next round ends, etc.

You might consider joining me in developing my software, rather than starting from scratch. I think that you'll be surprised at how complicated the algorithms are for pairing and matching can be, and it seems rather a waste to duplicate the effort.

I'll have to take a look at what wolflair is working on and a few others.

The guys that want all the money for using Overloard each time can eat my shorts. Running 1-3 tournaments a month, some of them free ones like 'ardboyz, there is no way I want to pay a per person fee. Really soured me on the whole rankingsHQ stuff in general.

Sell the program for a one time or yearly fee. Per person is idiotic. JMHO

mikhaila wrote:I'll have to take a look at what wolflair is working on and a few others.

The guys that want all the money for using Overloard each time can eat my shorts. Running 1-3 tournaments a month, some of them free ones like 'ardboyz, there is no way I want to pay a per person fee. Really soured me on the whole rankingsHQ stuff in general.

Sell the program for a one time or yearly fee. Per person is idiotic. JMHO

They charge per person? WTF? We should chat, I think a meeting of the local minds can hopeful come up with a solution. I think there are enough local computer guys who might be able to come up with some themselves. Per person is ridiculous, i'll vouch for the number of events consider the number of time i've been able to say "see you next weekend." 20-40 guys per event for local RT's at 3-4 events per month adds up quick. Then adding you run about a GT a month..

@barontuman
I'll be reusing (at least in concept at the least) a matching and sorting routine that I created for last year's VBA powered speadsheet which was nothing more than simple iterative check following a sort. It worked, although I am sure I can do it simpler and faster in T-SQL (I'm using a presentation layer/data access layer concept which makes it easier for integration with separate programs, like one running on a mobile device).

I'm pressed for time, this has to be ready before the end of next week so I can test it (or better yet, get one of the testers at work to test it for me) but I'll post up a link to the code when I can, although a warn you I am not a coder by nature and the way it is written may make your eyes bleed

Wolflair's program will be charged by the player as well that is why I probably won't use it even though it is a great package. Personally I don't want all of the internet bells and whistles I just want to be able to get table assignements and pairings quickly.

Scratch that one too then. Per player charge on software isn't worth looking at. I want something that helps run a tournament. Not register players, take money, or sweep the floor and do the dishes. No way will I even look at something that charges based on how many people there is at a tournament.

mikhaila wrote:Scratch that one too then. Per player charge on software isn't worth looking at. I want something that helps run a tournament. Not register players, take money, or sweep the floor and do the dishes. No way will I even look at something that charges based on how many people there is at a tournament.

An excel spread sheet works well....

frgsinwntr wrote:

mikhaila wrote:Scratch that one too then. Per player charge on software isn't worth looking at. I want something that helps run a tournament. Not register players, take money, or sweep the floor and do the dishes. No way will I even look at something that charges based on how many people there is at a tournament.

An excel spread sheet works well....

Using one.) But keep hoping for better. Had high hopes from Wolf'sLair, sigh.

A per player/per event licence is probbaly not the best way to go for a charging plan as those who have most need of it find that it becomes prohibitively expensive very quickly. I'm not sure about other systems but 40K and WHFB tournaments on this side of the pond don't really turn a profit.

For the cost you could probably hire temp for a day and use excel

For those that are interested (which may well be 0) here is some T-SQL to allocate players to each other. It seems to run quick but could probbaly be optimised. It is actually quite simple except where it has to deal with situations where players who have not played each other are running out.

Comments and suggestions are always welcome, I may make team exclusions optional later.

*Edit-Seems this code box does not like T-SQL syntax, but if you can read SQL then you can probably figure it out

ALTER PROCEDURE [dbo].[SPCreateDraw] -- Add the parameters for the stored procedure here @EventID int, @RoundSeq int, @OverWriteDraw int, @ErrorReturn int = 0 output AS BEGIN -- SET NOCOUNT ON added to prevent extra result sets from -- interfering with SELECT statements. SET NOCOUNT ON; --First things first, if @OverWriteDraw is 0 then check to see if this round has alreday been drawn --and only draw it if it has not been drawn yet, otherwise carry on... if @OverWriteDraw = 0 begin select * from Draws where event_id = @EventID and round_seq = @RoundSeq if @@ROWCOUNT > 0 begin set @ErrorReturn = -1 return end end --Ok re-write time, this time get the top undrawn player, then get the top --undrawn player that is not him, nor sombody he has played or --on his team (unless his team is null, in which case ignore it) --oh, and then iterate it untill we have none left --oh, and make sure they have not dropped out this round. --OK, first make a temp table in memory to keep all this data declare @DrawTable Table( PlayerID int, TeamID int, Total int, TableNo int) --As this is going to be iterative start the loop Declare @AllDone bit = 0 Declare @TableNum int = 1 --Make the data structure to hold the player info Declare @CurrentPlayerID int Declare @CurrentPlayerTeamID int Declare @CurrentPlayerTotal int -- Get the stand in players team no declare @StandInTeam int select @StandInTeam = team_id from Teams where team_name = 'STAND IN PLAYERS' while @AllDone = 0 begin --And now lets get the top player and put him in our table insert into @DrawTable(PlayerID,TeamID, Total, TableNo) select top 1 player_id,team_id, COALESCE(dbo.PlayerTotal(player_id),0) as 'Total', @TableNum from players where event_id = 1-- @EventID --and now the exclusions and player_id not in (select playerid from @DrawTable) --exclude players alreday done and player_id not in (select player_id from dbo.Round_Dropouts where round_seq = @RoundSeq) --exlude dropouts and team_id not in(@StandInTeam) --We don't want to allocate stand ins order by 'Total' desc if @@ROWCOUNT = 0 --if we did not actually insert anything then all players must be drawn or have dropped out begin set @AllDone = -1 BREAK end --Ok now lets find him an opponent --Well first we want to find out what player we just placed select @CurrentPlayerID = playerid , @CurrentPlayerTeamID = COALESCE(TeamID,-1) from @DrawTable where TableNo = @TableNum --First lets get all his previous opponents declare @PrevOpps Table(PrevPlayerID int) insert into @PrevOpps (PrevPlayerID) select draws_1.player_id FROM Draws INNER JOIN Draws AS Draws_1 ON Draws.draw_table = Draws_1.draw_table AND Draws.event_id = Draws_1.event_id AND Draws.round_seq = Draws_1.round_seq WHERE (Draws.player_id = @CurrentPlayerID) AND (Draws_1.player_id <> @CurrentPlayerID) --Now do the select and insert insert into @DrawTable(PlayerID,TeamID, Total, TableNo) select top 1 player_id,team_id, COALESCE(dbo.PlayerTotal(player_id),0) as 'Total', @TableNum from players where event_id = @EventID --and now the exclusions and player_id not in (select playerid from @DrawTable) --exclude players alreday done and player_id not in (select player_id from dbo.Round_Dropouts where round_seq = @RoundSeq) --exlude dropouts and player_id not in (select PrevPlayerID from @PrevOpps)--exclude previuous opponents and team_id not in (@CurrentPlayerTeamID, @StandInTeam)--exlude team mates and stand in players order by 'Total' desc --if we did not actually insert anything then we have run out of players or this person --has already played everybody who is not in thier team if @@ROWCOUNT = 0 begin --Ok if it were that this player has played every one before then just sod it and match --him up with the best unallocated player that is not a team member or a stand in insert into @DrawTable(PlayerID,TeamID, Total, TableNo) select top 1 player_id,team_id, COALESCE(dbo.PlayerTotal(player_id),0) as 'Total', @TableNum from players where event_id = @EventID --and now the exclusions and player_id not in (select playerid from @DrawTable) --exclude players alreday done and player_id not in (select player_id from dbo.Round_Dropouts where round_seq = @RoundSeq) --exlude dropouts and team_id not in (@CurrentPlayerTeamID, @StandInTeam)--exlude team mates and stand in players order by 'Total' desc --Ok did we manage it that time? if @@ROWCOUNT = 0 begin --If we are here then we did not, ok give him a stand in insert into @DrawTable(PlayerID,TeamID, Total, TableNo) select top 1 player_id,team_id, COALESCE(dbo.PlayerTotal(player_id),0) as 'Total', @TableNum from players where event_id = @EventID --and now the exclusions and player_id not in (select playerid from @DrawTable) --exclude players alreday done and player_id not in (select player_id from dbo.Round_Dropouts where round_seq = @RoundSeq) --exlude dropouts and team_id not in (@CurrentPlayerTeamID)--exlude team mates order by 'Total' desc if @@ROWCOUNT = 0 --If they still don't have an opponent then we have no players left who are not in thier team --and we are freash out of stand ins, so give them a team member begin insert into @DrawTable(PlayerID,TeamID, Total, TableNo) select top 1 player_id,team_id, COALESCE(dbo.PlayerTotal(player_id),0) as 'Total', @TableNum from players where event_id = @EventID --and now the exclusions and player_id not in (select playerid from @DrawTable) --exclude players alreday done and player_id not in (select player_id from dbo.Round_Dropouts where round_seq = @RoundSeq) --exlude dropouts order by 'Total' desc --If they still don't have an opponent after this then add a stand in, have him stand out or somthing. Any UI will have to show unallocated players set @ErrorReturn = -2 end end end set @TableNum = @TableNum +1 end --end of the master while @@@@@@@@@ --Ok, write this into the draws insert into Draws (event_id, round_seq, player_id,draw_table) Select @EventID, @RoundSeq, PlayerID, TableNo from @DrawTable END

A question that no one is really asking but how many people are you looking to attend or run in your event? That can change drastically on how you handle things.

Your not going to use excel in a 400 person event I will tell you that right now. Excel is great for 10-50, and 100 is pushing it. Yes, the Excel can handle the math and the programming but you don't have enough time between rounds to fix rows and data entry points.


If you want to use something to handle more then 100 people there are other software programs out there but you are almost better off building something yourself if you can.

@Koppo - That's the same sort of algorithm that I first used, and it's typical of how it's done by hand as well.

The corner cases miss a lot of instances in smaller (<20 player), and in larger tournaments your algorithm runs in around O*n^(n-1). Add to that, each iteration requires one or more database calls, and it'll start to bog down pretty dramatically in larger tournaments. Mine runs in O*(n^3), which is dramatically faster, and since it runs in memory, is virtually instant regardless of the size of the tournament.

Even more, because you're using a top-down only approach, it will tend to get the top table right 100%, but the next tables could be less than optimal. Using the Hungarian algorithm works on the entire list, minimizing any unwanted matches due to teams, previous pairings, or battle point differences.

@Darkwynn - I would say that even for a tournament of 30, you're really pushing it using Excel. There are just so many situations (like making non-duplicate table assignments) that are really time consuming. Is it possible? Yes. Is it fun for the organizer, or the people who are waiting for their table assignments? No way!

For those who have not tried Tournament Marshal, what have you got to lose?

If you have tried it and not liked it, I'd really like to hear why you didn't, as I'm improving it often, and will incorporate your suggestions into future versions.

@barontuman You are, of course, correct.

Do you have any examples of the Hungarian Algorithm being implemented in an SQL 2008 environment? If I can get the allocations done without having to use iterative calls to the DB I would be happier. Also can it be used to handle a psudo-random allocation where players are allocated randomly, except for team mates and previous opponents.

Running time is probably not an issue, the max expected time to actually create a round is <5 seconds, which is fine as far as user expectation goes.

I'm not a mathematician, I'm a systems analyst so things like this are not my strong suit. As i have said in the past this program will have the required functionality, it'll just do it badly.

As for using excel, the one I used last year was much slower than this but still managed <5 seconds with a 150+ person tournament (although it would have got slower the more people that were added and the more rounds that were played).

I too am developing my own software for this, It started as something to use for my clubs events but I've decided to release it to the public and if people want I'll support it with more features. It's in beta and can use suggestions to make it better. I intend this to always be free. I will never ask for money or for a fee.

It can be found at Tournament Manager

@ Koppo,

Hungarian algorithm needs an array and as far as I can tell, SQL just won't work that way. It needs a "real" programming environment. No offense intended, but SQL will only get you so far. I'd be interested to see some actual benchmarks. 5 seconds is perfectly reasonable, but I'd be surprised to see an actual environment benchmark.

@ Grokin,

First run : it doesn't install on the start menu, if you're going to have an install program, you might as well install it where a user can find it. You say that it's free, but you have an "evaluation period?" Also, after entering one player in, I clicked on it and got an Unhandled exception error. The player entry system is pretty slow and typing and mouse intensive. It would show down a large tournament registration.

Why not just use mine? Yours looks like it's heading down the same path, and mine has already undergone extensive testing, supports printing, HTML export, better user interface, drag and drop round adjustments, and will support concurrent multiple users soon.