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So, in light of the recent discussion of "does difficult = dangerous?", I had a related question:

Do assault grenades help when assaulting a Venomthrope-affected unit? The rules say you're reduced to I1 if you're forced to take a dangerous terrain test. The rules for grenades say that you don't take the initiative penalty for assaulting through cover. So, is the initiative lowered for models assaulting a venomthrope-bubble with assault grenades?

I'd say yes, because while you're taking a dangerous terrain test, you're not assaulting through cover (or even taking a difficult terrain test) and therefore, grenades don't apply so, regardless, your Initiative is dropped.

/Discuss

I think assault grenades remove the Initiative penalty because it says in the Assault grenade rules "You don't suffer the penalty for assaulting through cover" it never says you must take a difficult terrain test, it just says assaulting through cover and a dangerous terrain test is listed under "Assaulting Through Cover."

It says you take a dangerous terrain test. Now if it was "assault as though assaulting through dangerous terrain" then you would take a difficult terrain test. It doesn't.

So you just take a dangerous terrain test.

Assaulting Through Cover: "...if an assaulting unit had to take a difficult or dangerous terrain test during their assault move, all of its models have their Initiative value lowered to 1 when attacking..." BRB pg 36

Spore Cloud: "...any non-vehicle enemy model that assaults one of these units must take a dangerous terrain test..." Nid Codex pg 45

Assault Grenades: "Models equipped with assault grenades don't suffer the penalty to their Initiative for assaulting enemies through cover, but fight as normal..." BRB pg 36

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In other words, assault grenades do prevent their Initiative value from being lowered to 1 when assaulting a unit in the Venomthrope "bubble". You would make the move, take dangerous terrain tests, and not gain your bonus attack for assaulting, but otherwise fight as normal.

Leonus wrote:Assaulting Through Cover: "...if an assaulting unit had to take a difficult or dangerous terrain test during their assault move, all of its models have their Initiative value lowered to 1 when attacking..." BRB pg 36

Spore Cloud: "...any non-vehicle enemy model that assaults one of these units must take a dangerous terrain test..." Nid Codex pg 45

Assault Grenades: "Models equipped with assault grenades don't suffer the penalty to their Initiative for assaulting enemies through cover, but fight as normal..." BRB pg 36

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In other words, assault grenades do prevent their Initiative value from being lowered to 1 when assaulting a unit in the Venomthrope "bubble". You would make the move, take dangerous terrain tests, and not gain your bonus attack for assaulting, but otherwise fight as normal.

I guess the question, then should be, "does taking a dangerous terrain test equate to assaulting through cover, even if you didn't move through cover at all?"

Assaulting a venomthrope bubble, you don't actually assault through cover. Literally, you assault through clear terrain and then you take a dangerous terrain test. Is the "cover" in the BRB literal or figurative?

puma713 wrote:
I guess the question, then should be, "does taking a dangerous terrain test equate to assaulting through cover, even if you didn't move through cover at all?"

Assaulting a venomthrope bubble, you don't actually assault through cover. Literally, you assault through clear terrain and then you take a dangerous terrain test. Is the "cover" in the BRB literal or figurative?

It's not the same as I read it. Assault grenades prevent Initiative reduction that results from assaulting through cover not from assaulting through Spore Cloud.

But, since the unit is not assaulting through cover why are we even reading the Assaulting Through Cover section? What possible purpose could reading the rules that activate under specific criteria, which are not met, have? The RaW for a normal assault + Spore Cloud are all that are relevant to the situation the OP describes. To say the same thing differently - the initiative reduction when forced to test difficult and/or dangerous terrain only apply when assaulting through cover.

Now if Spore Cloud functioned by making it such that you were "assaulting as though through cover" everything would be different.

The spore cloud is a form of cover, that's why it provides a cover save.

I wouldn't say that. It's just a rule that any friendly unit within 6" gets a cover save. Not exactly the same thing.

Yeah, the cloud itself doesn't make, define or involve terrain in any way. It make one take a Danger-T test. One or the results of takeing this test is one strikes at I1. One did not however assault through cover.

"if an assaulting unit had to take a difficult or dangerous terrain test during their assault move, all of its models have their Initiative value lowered to 1 when attacking,"

"Models equipped with assault grenades don’t suffer the penalty to their Initiative for assaulting enemies through cover, but fight as normal."

Taking DT-test =/= Assaulting through cover
Taking DT-test = I1

Yall seem to have missed an important point of my post. The first rule that I list is called "Assaulting Through Cover" and describes that you are "assaulting through cover" whenever you have to make a dangerous or difficult terrain test during your assault move.

So simply because Spore Cloud causes you to take a dangerous terrain test when you assault, the rule for assaulting through cover applies.

ChrisCP wrote:Yeah, the cloud itself doesn't make, define or involve terrain in any way. It make one take a Danger-T test. One or the results of takeing this test is one strikes at I1. One did not however assault through cover.

"if an assaulting unit had to take a difficult or dangerous terrain test during their assault move, all of its models have their Initiative value lowered to 1 when attacking,"

"Models equipped with assault grenades don’t suffer the penalty to their Initiative for assaulting enemies through cover, but fight as normal."

Taking DT-test =/= Assaulting through cover
Taking DT-test = I1

Page 36.

"ASSAULTING THROUGH COVER. If, following the rules for moving assaulting models (see page 34), any model in an assaulting unit will have to go through difficult or dangerous terrain as part of its assault move, the unit must take the relevant terrain test before moving."

Page 36.

"Assault Grenades. <snip> equipped with assault grenades don't suffer the penalty to their initiative for assaulting enemies through cover,"

Just read the underlined words. All I really added were the three words preceding one of the sentences you yourself quoted.

P.s. yes, I know, I'm repeating what Leonus wrote...

As pointed out by Leonus and Mahtamori, both rules apply to the situation because that's how the game is played irrelevent of whether you perceive the spore cloud as being cover or not.

Leonus wrote:Yall seem to have missed an important point of my post. The first rule that I list is called "Assaulting Through Cover" and describes that you are "assaulting through cover" whenever you have to make a dangerous or difficult terrain test during your assault move.

So simply because Spore Cloud causes you to take a dangerous terrain test when you assault, the rule for assaulting through cover applies.

The rules for assaulting through cover never once states that by virtue of taking a dangerous/difficult-T test you are assaulting through cover, in fact it states twice that assaulting through cover means you are moving through a specific type of terrain. This is not a two way street. Assaulting through Cover requires a test, taking a test does not mean you are assaulting through cover.

The rules in the section on Assaulting through Cover on page36 are just that, rules for assaulting through cover. Spore Cloud is not a terrain, it merely forces a test during the Assault phase and cover during the Shooting phase.

The Statement "The second disadvantage is that warriors who are assaulting through cover are subject to deadly salvos of close range fire as they slowly struggle to get to grips with their foe and may be ambushed by foes that are ready for them. to represent this, if an assaulting unit had to take a difficult or dangerous terrain test during their assault move, all the models have their Initiative value lowered to 1 when attacking, regardless of other Initiative modifiers."p36 BRB. only applies if assaulting through cover.

The section for Assaulting Through Cover starts with "If, following the rules for moving assaulting models (see page 34), any model in an assaulting unit will have to go through difficult or dangerous terrain as part of its assault move, the unit must take the relevant terrain test before moving."p34 BRB. Again, terrain, not test.

The assaulting unit uses it's normal Initiative (plus appropriate bonuses for assaulting) regardless of having Assault grenades with the added disadvantages of Spore Cloud, i.e. each model must roll a 1d6 and on a roll of 1 suffers a wound with no Armour/Cover save allowed.

Leez wrote:

Leonus wrote:Yall seem to have missed an important point of my post. The first rule that I list is called "Assaulting Through Cover" and describes that you are "assaulting through cover" whenever you have to make a dangerous or difficult terrain test during your assault move.

So simply because Spore Cloud causes you to take a dangerous terrain test when you assault, the rule for assaulting through cover applies.

The rules for assaulting through cover never once states that by virtue of taking a dangerous/difficult-T test you are assaulting through cover, in fact it states twice that assaulting through cover means you are moving through a specific type of terrain. This is not a two way street. Assaulting through Cover requires a test, taking a test does not mean you are assaulting through cover.

The rules in the section on Assaulting through Cover on page36 are just that, rules for assaulting through cover. Spore Cloud is not a terrain, it merely forces a test during the Assault phase and cover during the Shooting phase.

The Statement "The second disadvantage is that warriors who are assaulting through cover are subject to deadly salvos of close range fire as they slowly struggle to get to grips with their foe and may be ambushed by foes that are ready for them. to represent this, if an assaulting unit had to take a difficult or dangerous terrain test during their assault move, all the models have their Initiative value lowered to 1 when attacking, regardless of other Initiative modifiers."p36 BRB. only applies if assaulting through cover.

The section for Assaulting Through Cover starts with "If, following the rules for moving assaulting models (see page 34), any model in an assaulting unit will have to go through difficult or dangerous terrain as part of its assault move, the unit must take the relevant terrain test before moving."p34 BRB. Again, terrain, not test.

The assaulting unit uses it's normal Initiative (plus appropriate bonuses for assaulting) regardless of having Assault grenades with the added disadvantages of Spore Cloud, i.e. each model must roll a 1d6 and on a roll of 1 suffers a wound with no Armour/Cover save allowed.

Spore Cloud: Venemthropes emit a cloud of airbourne spores so dense that it shrouds everything nearby.

The Venomthrope unit and any friendly units within 6" of the unit, can claim a 5+ cover save against any shooting attacks. If addition, these units count as being armed with defensive grenades and any non-vehicle enemy model that assaults one of these units must take a dangerous terrain test to represent the toxic effects of the spore cloud. Should the Venomthrope be killed, these bonuses are immediately lost.

It gives cover, it surrounds the area with a toxic gas making it dangerous terrain. It gives all the prerequisites to being dangerous terrain as defined by the Assaulting through Cover mentioned in the BRB. Many players use dice to represent a crater after a vehicle explodes. Should the players not be in area terrain because the dice do not appear to be area terrain. What if the player puts down dice to represent the toxic cloud covering all of the friendly units under it, would that be sufficient?

Leez, you're quoting nearly all the relevant rules, so why not read them?

to represent this, if an assaulting unit had to take a difficult or dangerous terrain test during their assault move, all the models have their Initiative value lowered to 1 when attacking, regardless of other Initiative modifiers.

only applies if assaulting through cover.

No, this is incorrect. The rules give you exactly when it applies, and that is the underlined part you'll find up there.

"If, following the rules for moving assaulting models (see page 34), any model in an assaulting unit will have to go through difficult or dangerous terrain as part of its assault move, the unit must take the relevant terrain test before moving."p34 BRB. Again, terrain, not test.

First of all, the page reference is erroneous, it's still page 36. The text you quote here is the only instance in "Assault through cover" which specify "terrain". This section does not specify what "moving through cover" is, since it doesn't say what it is. This section simply tell you, if you missed it on page 32, that you must always roll for difficult or dangerous terrain if you move through it.

You could argue that the second paragraph would, in context (i.e. it'd be open to interpretation), be talking about terrain. However, the rules are explicit. You strike at initiative 1 if you took a difficult or dangerous terrain test, and it is not conditioned by those tests coming from terrain.

hamsterwheel wrote:

It gives cover, it surrounds the area with a toxic gas making it dangerous terrain.

This is not true. You can be 2" away from a Venomthrope and not take any sort of test. As long as you're not assaulting it, it is clear terrain.

hamsterwheel wrote:It gives all the prerequisites to being dangerous terrain as defined by the Assaulting through Cover mentioned in the BRB. Many players use dice to represent a crater after a vehicle explodes. Should the players not be in area terrain because the dice do not appear to be area terrain. What if the player puts down dice to represent the toxic cloud covering all of the friendly units under it, would that be sufficient?

If this is true, then the same argument would need to be applied to other granted cover saves, like the KFF. If taking a cover save = being in cover, then you've got a point. But it doesn't. There are things that expressly grant cover saves, like the KFF, the Venomthrope, Conceal, Turbo-boosting.

Are you in cover? Literally? No. Are you in cover? Figuratively? Maybe. Which is the BRB referring to? And how do you know?

When you move past a venomthrope, you're in clear terrain. Just like you're in clear terrain when you assault it, you're just forced to take a check.

I'm still in agreement with Leez.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mahtamori wrote:

You could argue that the second paragraph would, in context (i.e. it'd be open to interpretation), be talking about terrain. However, the rules are explicit. You strike at initiative 1 if you took a difficult or dangerous terrain test, and it is not conditioned by those tests coming from terrain.

Okay. And that's the crux of the problem. The dangerous terrain test is not coming from terrain. It's not even coming from "cover". It's coming from a special rule that doesn't change terrain types at all. So, you didn't "assault through cover" just because you took the test. You assaulted a unit that forces you to take a dangerous terrain test without any other qualifiers, thereby reducing your initiative to 1.

Now, do your grenades prevent that? Grenades simply affect "assaulting through cover". Did you? Literally? No. Figuratively? Maybe.

hamsterwheel wrote:
Spore Cloud: Venemthropes emit a cloud of airbourne spores so dense that it shrouds everything nearby.

The Venomthrope unit and any friendly units within 6" of the unit, can claim a 5+ cover save against any shooting attacks. If addition, these units count as being armed with defensive grenades and any non-vehicle enemy model that assaults one of these units must take a dangerous terrain test to represent the toxic effects of the spore cloud. Should the Venomthrope be killed, these bonuses are immediately lost.

It gives cover, it surrounds the area with a toxic gas making it dangerous terrain. It gives all the prerequisites to being dangerous terrain as defined by the Assaulting through Cover mentioned in the BRB. Many players use dice to represent a crater after a vehicle explodes. Should the players not be in area terrain because the dice do not appear to be area terrain. What if the player puts down dice to represent the toxic cloud covering all of the friendly units under it, would that be sufficient?

Spore Cloud does not grant cover, it grants a cover save. It does not create dangerous terrain it forces a dangerous terrain test. Your fluff based reasoning for why there is cover and dangerous terrain is nice, it would make for a great House Rule, but it's not RaW.

Mahtamori wrote:Leez, you're quoting nearly all the relevant rules, so why not read them?

to represent this, if an assaulting unit had to take a difficult or dangerous terrain test during their assault move, all the models have their Initiative value lowered to 1 when attacking, regardless of other Initiative modifiers.

only applies if assaulting through cover.

No, this is incorrect. The rules give you exactly when it applies, and that is the underlined part you'll find up there.

"If, following the rules for moving assaulting models (see page 34), any model in an assaulting unit will have to go through difficult or dangerous terrain as part of its assault move, the unit must take the relevant terrain test before moving."p34 BRB. Again, terrain, not test.

First of all, the page reference is erroneous, it's still page 36. The text you quote here is the only instance in "Assault through cover" which specify "terrain". This section does not specify what "moving through cover" is, since it doesn't say what it is. This section simply tell you, if you missed it on page 32, that you must always roll for difficult or dangerous terrain if you move through it.

I actually typed them out, so reading them was unavoidable. Let me ask, do you consult the rules for rending when no one is using a rending weapon? Do you look at the vehicle damage chart when two infantry units clash? How about figuring out which wounds deny a FNP roll when no model has that USR? They aren't applicable to the situation are they? Neither are the rules in the section demarcated with the sub-heading Assaulting Through Cover.

Mahtamori wrote:You could argue that the second paragraph would, in context (i.e. it'd be open to interpretation), be talking about terrain. However, the rules are explicit. You strike at initiative 1 if you took a difficult or dangerous terrain test, and it is not conditioned by those tests coming from terrain.

Since they are in the section marked off as Assaulting Through Cover, I am surprised anyone is trying to apply this rule when not assaulting through cover. Why would rules that dictates what happens when you assault through cover apply when you are in fact not assaulting through cover? Why would they even be consulted? They are not relevant.

And thank you for correcting my erroneous citation.

I reverse my position on this particular argument after re-reading the rules for Assaulting through Cover. The initial prerequisite to getting the two dis-advantages does call upon at least one model in a unit to move through difficult or dangerous terrain, which the spore cloud is not defined as specifically. At most you could attempt to make the argument that assaulting a unit in the spore cloud is defined as moving through dangerous terrain per the definition of dangerous terrain on page 14 of the BRB.

Dangerous Terrain
"As mentioned previously, some terrain features will be dangerous to move through. This is represented by the dangerous terrain test. Roll a D6 for every model that has entered, left, or moved through one or more areas of dangerous terrain during its move. On a roll of a 1, the model suffers a wound, with no armor or cover saves allowed."

But that would be stretch.

Edited: Spellling mistakes.

Threads like this make me think I should actually field those things--at least once (in a while?).

Of course, they also give me extra reasons not to.

Leez wrote:

Mahtamori wrote:Leez, you're quoting nearly all the relevant rules, so why not read them?

to represent this, if an assaulting unit had to take a difficult or dangerous terrain test during their assault move, all the models have their Initiative value lowered to 1 when attacking, regardless of other Initiative modifiers.

only applies if assaulting through cover.

No, this is incorrect. The rules give you exactly when it applies, and that is the underlined part you'll find up there.

"If, following the rules for moving assaulting models (see page 34), any model in an assaulting unit will have to go through difficult or dangerous terrain as part of its assault move, the unit must take the relevant terrain test before moving."p34 BRB. Again, terrain, not test.

First of all, the page reference is erroneous, it's still page 36. The text you quote here is the only instance in "Assault through cover" which specify "terrain". This section does not specify what "moving through cover" is, since it doesn't say what it is. This section simply tell you, if you missed it on page 32, that you must always roll for difficult or dangerous terrain if you move through it.

I actually typed them out, so reading them was unavoidable. Let me ask, do you consult the rules for rending when no one is using a rending weapon? Do you look at the vehicle damage chart when two infantry units clash? How about figuring out which wounds deny a FNP roll when no model has that USR? They aren't applicable to the situation are they? Neither are the rules in the section demarcated with the sub-heading Assaulting Through Cover.

Edit: actually, let's not play that game. Just try and keep the irrelevant comments to a minimum, ok? Suffice to say, if I don't find a conclusive answer in the rules, I try to broaden my search.

Leez wrote:

Mahtamori wrote:You could argue that the second paragraph would, in context (i.e. it'd be open to interpretation), be talking about terrain. However, the rules are explicit. You strike at initiative 1 if you took a difficult or dangerous terrain test, and it is not conditioned by those tests coming from terrain.

Since they are in the section marked off as Assaulting Through Cover, I am surprised anyone is trying to apply this rule when not assaulting through cover. Why would rules that dictates what happens when you assault through cover apply when you are in fact not assaulting through cover? Why would they even be consulted? They are not relevant.

And thank you for correcting my erroneous citation.

I'm arguing that the rules, literally, says you have your initiative lowered to 1 if you take a difficult or dangerous terrain test when you move to assault someone. I don't buy the argument that the rules hinge on the target literally being in cover, but I'll play your game:

Page 21. The Shooting Phase. Taking Armour saves sub-section. Cover Saves sub-sub-section.
"What counts as cover? Cover is basically anything that is hiding the target or protecting it from incoming shots."

...or is your argument actually that the unit assaulting has to move through a terrain feature that would grant THEM cover?

@ puma713: Grenades aren't targeting the cover, they're targeting the units which benefit from it. In essence, in the time the defending unit would take advantage of the problems the assaulting unit has, they are instead forced to minimize the effect of the grenades themselves.

It does, actually, not make sense that being in proximity to the Venomthrope doesn't do anything since it's a cloud surrounding it, I think we can agree on that.

Mahtamori wrote:

Page 21. The Shooting Phase. Taking Armour saves sub-section. Cover Saves sub-sub-section.
"What counts as cover? Cover is basically anything that is hiding the target or protecting it from incoming shots."

...or is your argument actually that the unit assaulting has to move through a terrain feature that would grant THEM cover?

No. We're suggesting that you do actually have to move through cover to be "assaulting through cover". Taking a dangerous terrain test =/= moving through cover. And having a cover save doesn't mean you're in cover at all. That means you'd be suggesting that you're moving through cover when you assault a Big Mek with a KFF, because they have a cover save. Or that you're moving through cover when you assault a skimmer that moved flat out, because they're obscured. But that's not the case.

You assault a venomthrope. Did you move through cover? No. Did you have to take a dangerous terrain test? Yes. Is the fact of taking a test indicative that you moved through cover? That's the question at hand.

I believe their point is that having a cover save ≠ being in cover.

Testing for dangerous terrain does not signify being in cover. If you want to insist then I also propose the following,

If my Space Wolves are in the Spore Cloud and you insist that because I am taking a dangerous terrain test, I am in cover, when you want your gaunts/genestealers to assault me, then they will strike last since I am, "in cover".

The same would then also apply to the Rune Priest power, Tempest Wrath. For the listed unit types, all terrain is both difficult and dangerous. Does this mean that my Space Wolves, assaulting a unit that is treating all terrain as difficult and dangerous is assaulting a unit in cover? How about shooting at said units in difficult/dangerous terrain due to Tempest Wrath? Do they now get cover saves?

Being in cover requires difficult/dangerous terrain tests however taking difficult/dangerous terrain tests does not require cover.

puma713 wrote:

Mahtamori wrote:

Page 21. The Shooting Phase. Taking Armour saves sub-section. Cover Saves sub-sub-section.
"What counts as cover? Cover is basically anything that is hiding the target or protecting it from incoming shots."

...or is your argument actually that the unit assaulting has to move through a terrain feature that would grant THEM cover?

No. We're suggesting that you do actually have to move through cover to be "assaulting through cover". Taking a dangerous terrain test =/= moving through cover. And having a cover save doesn't mean you're in cover at all. That means you'd be suggesting that you're moving through cover when you assault a Big Mek with a KFF, because they have a cover save. Or that you're moving through cover when you assault a skimmer that moved flat out, because they're obscured. But that's not the case.

You assault a venomthrope. Did you move through cover? No. Did you have to take a dangerous terrain test? Yes. Is the fact of taking a test indicative that you moved through cover? That's the question at hand.

Incidentally, I am not suggesting that move through cover applies to skimmers of KFF. As far as "should I read those rules", yes. But since Assault Through Cover rules require there to be a difficult or dangerous terrain test - no. KFF doesn't do that (as far as I'm aware).

It's the simple case of "did you take a DT test?" Yup. I'm not even considering if you have to move through anything first, since the rules actually don't specify if you have to move through anything for the rules to apply, nor do they specify what that something has to be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother Ramses wrote:Testing for dangerous terrain does not signify being in cover. If you want to insist then I also propose the following,

If my Space Wolves are in the Spore Cloud and you insist that because I am taking a dangerous terrain test, I am in cover, when you want your gaunts/genestealers to assault me, then they will strike last since I am, "in cover".

The same would then also apply to the Rune Priest power, Tempest Wrath. For the listed unit types, all terrain is both difficult and dangerous. Does this mean that my Space Wolves, assaulting a unit that is treating all terrain as difficult and dangerous is assaulting a unit in cover? How about shooting at said units in difficult/dangerous terrain due to Tempest Wrath? Do they now get cover saves?

Being in cover requires difficult/dangerous terrain tests however taking difficult/dangerous terrain tests does not require cover.

Does the Spore Cloud ability give your space wolves a cover save? No.
Do the rules for Tempest Wrath require your space wolves to take a difficult or dangerous terrain test when assaulting that unit? No.
Does a difficult or dangerous terrain test grant you a cover save? No.

Difficult or dangerous terrain has nothing to do with cover. They might have terrain features that provide cover, but that's a different story.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kirsanth wrote:I believe their point is that having a cover save ≠ being in cover.

I have quoted a rule on page 21 that specify that cover is anything that protects you from incoming shots. Being in cover would thus mean being in a situation which grants a cover save. I am also, strongly suggesting, that being in cover is insufficient to make enemies assaulting you strike at I1.

Just to clarify for Mahtarmori, the rules actually do require you to move through difficult or dangerous terrain.

Assaulting through Cover
"if, following the rules for moving assaulting models (see page 34), any model in an assaulting unit will have to go through difficult or dangerous terrain as part of its assault move, the unit must take the relevant terrain test before moving. This has two disadvantages. The first and most obvious is that such tests might cause the assault to fail altogether if the closest model cannot make it into contact with the enemy. Note that if a model stopped 1" away from the enemy in the Movement or Shooting phase, it can Assault even if it rolls a double 1 on its difficult terrain test.

The second disadvantage is that the warriors who are assaulting through cover are subject to deadly salvoes of close range fire as they slowly struggle to get to grips with their foe and may be ambushed by foes that are ready for them. To represent this, if an assaulting unit had to take a difficult or dangerous terrain test during their assault move, all of its models have their initiative lowered to 1 when attacking, regardless of other Initiative modifiers. Remember that assaulting models must try to engage as many enemies as possible - no holding back to avoid the test!"

Notice the disadvantages have the prerequisite of the first sentence which requires a model to go through difficult or dangerous terrain. The second disadvantage is not it's own rule in a vacuum. The disadvantages only come up if the requirement of the rule comes into play. In this particular case, if a model assaults and has to move through difficult or dangerous terrain.

hamsterwheel wrote:Just to clarify for Mahtarmori, the rules actually do require you to move through difficult or dangerous terrain.

Assaulting through Cover
"if, following the rules for moving assaulting models (see page 34), any model in an assaulting unit will have to go through difficult or dangerous terrain as part of its assault move, the unit must take the relevant terrain test before moving. This has two disadvantages. The first and most obvious is that such tests might cause the assault to fail altogether if the closest model cannot make it into contact with the enemy. Note that if a model stopped 1" away from the enemy in the Movement or Shooting phase, it can Assault even if it rolls a double 1 on its difficult terrain test.

The second disadvantage is that the warriors who are assaulting through cover are subject to deadly salvoes of close range fire as they slowly struggle to get to grips with their foe and may be ambushed by foes that are ready for them. To represent this, if an assaulting unit had to take a difficult or dangerous terrain test during their assault move, all of its models have their initiative lowered to 1 when attacking, regardless of other Initiative modifiers. Remember that assaulting models must try to engage as many enemies as possible - no holding back to avoid the test!"

Notice the disadvantages have the prerequisite of the first sentence which requires a model to go through difficult or dangerous terrain. The second disadvantage is not it's own rule in a vacuum. The disadvantages only come up if the requirement of the rule comes into play. In this particular case, if a model assaults and has to move through difficult or dangerous terrain.

This is an argument worth reading. I'll spend some time considering this. Thank you for not bickering over irrelevancies or "cover"

However Mat, you are proposing that the act of taking a dangerous terrain test signifies being in cover and thus assault grenades would apply.

So by your standard units in Tempest Wrath, that are having to take both dangerous and difficult terrain, are in cover. My Space Wolves attempting to assault them, would have to assault them as if they were in cover.

Brother Ramses wrote:However Mat, you are proposing that the act of taking a dangerous terrain test signifies being in cover and thus assault grenades would apply.

So by your standard units in Tempest Wrath, that are having to take both dangerous and difficult terrain, are in cover. My Space Wolves attempting to assault them, would have to assault them as if they were in cover.

No. I am saying that being in a situation that grants you a cover save means you are in cover, as per the rules on page 21.

Dangerous or difficult terrain does not grant you cover by virtue of being dangerous or difficult terrain. Assaulting a unit which is in cover does not mean you get to strike at initiative 1, either, unless you have to make a DT test with any model when assaulting.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'll continue contemplating first and second consequences.

So if my gants are behind my gargoyles when you shoot, you need to strike my gants at I1 in assault?

You realize also, that cover saves never apply in CC, so the counter-example is a bit awkward.

kirsanth wrote:So if my gants are behind my gargoyles when you shoot, you need to strike my gants at I1 in assault?

You realize also, that cover saves never apply in CC, so the counter-example is a bit awkward.

No. Please, please! read what I'm writing.

Being in cover does NOT mean you are protected by it when someone assaults you. The assaulting unit MUST take a difficult terrain test in order to receive any penalties at all.

Cover. Is. Irrelevant.