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Last week we played our second friendly game of the night, turned out to be annihilation, and my opponent stole initiative. My line was all out in the open and I took the pain. Oh the pain. I lost 500 points in the first 2 turns. Very unfortunate. But it points to a issue that's been developing.
As my opponent gets used to his army he has progressively added more and more heavy weapons and tanks. Its becoming difficult to counter. Any ideas?

His list looks similar to this
1 Basilisk
2 Lemun Russ's
1 x10 PBS
2 Platoons - with 2 heavy weapons squads within totting lascannons and ML.

I was running;
1 CS with jetpack and Lash
10 Raptors + AC + PW + 2 Meltas
x2 3 Bikes + 2 Meltas
x2 6 Noise marines with sonic blasters
5 CSM
x2 3 Termies + combi

We both just came back to the game and are feeling out our lists. I was thinking of running this list to counter;

HQ
Demon Prince + Wings +MoS + LoS 155
ELITE
3 Terminators + 3 Combi Weapons (Melta) 115
3 Terminators + 3 Combi Weapons (Plasma) 115
3 Terminators + 3 Combi Weapons (Plasma) 115
TROOPS
8 CSM + 1 Flamer + Rhino 160
7 CSM + Rhino 140
HEAVY
2 Obliterator 150
2 Obliterator 150
2 Obliterator 150
FAST ATT
DEMONS
TOTAL 1250

I'm looking for a well rounded alternative. Any help would be appreciated

Demon Prince with LoS isn't useful against heavy mech armies. I'd drop that if I were you.

He hasn't started taking transports yet. What would you take as a alternative HQ? Just the Demon Prince + Wings


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How about this;


HQ
Demon Prince + Wings 130
ELITE
3 Terminators + 3 Combi Weapons (Melta) 115
3 Terminators + 3 Combi Weapons (Plasma) 115
3 Terminators + 3 Combi Weapons (Plasma) 115
TROOPS
7 CSM + AC + PF + 1 Flamer + Rhino + Havok Launcher 200
7 CSM + AC + PF + 1 Flamer + Rhino + Havok Launcher 200
HEAVY
2 Obliterator 150
2 Obliterator 150
1 Obliterator 75

TOTAL 1250

You're running way too light on the troops. For Chaos, the Elite/Heavy/Fast section is there to support the troops.

For 1250 games I would aim to have 3-4 full squads of CSMs, PM or Berserkers in Rhinos. Daemon Princes, Oblits or Defilers will be used to fill in the points and hopefully draw some of those anti-tank weapons away from the Rhinos.

Hug terrain, pop smoke, get up close, multi-assault various squads and tanks and watch your troops run amok in their lines.

Hmm what about something like this;

HQ
Demon Prince + Wings + MoN 150
ELITE
3 Terminators + 3 Combi Weapons (Melta) 115
3 Terminators + 3 Combi Weapons (Melta) 115

TROOPS
5 CSM + AC + PW + 1 Flamer + Rhino + Havok Launcher 145
5 CSM + AC + PW + 1 Flamer + Rhino + Havok Launcher 145
5 CSM + AC + PW + 1 Flamer + Rhino + Havok Launcher 145
5 CSM + AC + PW + 1 Flamer + Rhino 130
HEAVY
2 Obliterator 150
2 Obliterator 150

TOTAL 1245

Better but I'd leave those HL at home, you should be racing your Rhinos towards his line, not hanging back and dropping cupcakes on him.

My gut instinct is that you're much better off with 10 man squads instead of 5 man. I understand about target saturation but I think you could get 3x10 man squads in there fine if you trim some points.

Drop the Obliterators and add Havocs with Autocannons. Give the Daemon Prince Nurgle's Rot for cleaning up all that infantry. Drop the Terminators and add Chosen with an Autocannon. Drop the Aspiring Champion and his Power Weapon, and the Havoc Launchers, and fill out your Chaos Space Marine Squads with Melta Guns.

Im still worrying about his LR front 14 but I have been hankering to use the chosen. Here is the list taking the suggestions you both presented. Thanks for suggestions, i've had pretty good luck so far but those pie plates sitting on a AV14 make me pretty nervous.

HQ
Demon Prince + Wings + MoN + Nurgle's Rot 165
ELITE
5 Chosen + 1 Autocannon 110
5 Chosen + 1 Autocannon 110
TROOPS
10 CSM + 2 Meltas + Rhino 205
10 CSM + 2 Meltas + Rhino 205
10 CSM + 2 Meltas + Rhino 205
HEAVY
5 Havocs + 3 Autocannon 135
5 Havocs + 2 Autocannon 115
TOTAL 1250

Bhale wrote:Im still worrying about his LR front 14

I think its a losing proposition to try and shoot down AV14 from across the board, Chaos just doesn't have the raw firepower for that.
Instead, get up close with either Melta weapons or try to assault that rear armor since its only AV10.

Yup. The notion behind the Autocannons is that they'll knock out nasty stuff like the Basilisk and still be handy against infantry. However, remember that Leman Russes don't have great side armour, so position your Havocs on your flanks so you have the opportunity if the tanks turn to face something nasty like the other Havoc squad. This is how you crossfire stuff in 40k.

Make sure that you infiltrate your Chosen into cover, else they are just going to be chewed up and spat out. It might even be something to sacrifice the third Autocannon in the first Havoc Squad to buy the Chosen squads some Flamers if he tries to winkle you out of cover with waves of infantry, or they run out of armoured targets.

If the board has line of sight blocking terrain, deploy the Daemon Prince out of line of sight and run him up close. Otherwise leave him in reserves and Deep Strike. Remember that he can use Nurgle's Rot in close combat and that it affects models in close combat. Sometimes it's better not to use it until the Daemon Prince is well and truly bogged down in Guardsmen, rather than allowing models in his assault range to be removed.

Something to consider is that if he has the first turn, you might consider leaving your Chaos Space Marines in reserve to that he can't shoot them before you can blow smoke, but that's only if you can't deploy them to get cover saves from his shooting. Otherwise you'll want those juicy targets to take some of the threat out of your Chosen squads.

Now, looking at his army, you need a target priority. I'd say the Psycker Battle Squad and the Basilisk are what you want to concentrate on first, and go after the Leman Russes in the second turn because in the second turn you'll have had the option to move 24" into position with those twin-Meltas.

If he has the Basilisk firing barrages, then you'll need to go after it with the Daemon Prince, but otherwise consider that Chimeras have long sides and pathetic side armour, so you might want to split your Chosen as well as your Havocs so he has to face in one direct.

Very good points about setting up the crossfire and the target priority list.
A new problem that concerns me is moving 12" and then getting target distroyed killing the squad thats inside them. Guess i'll have to get used to that.

Don't worry so much about it. If the Rhino is destroyed, then each guy in the squad takes a S3 AP- hit, which means the Chaos Space Marines are wounded on 5+ and then get their Sv3+. Expect one of them to buy it if their Rhino gets blown up. Could be better, could be worse, but it's equivalent to taking a squad's worth of lasgun fire. They're Ld9 so you shouldn't worry too much about pinning, and then they'll get cover from the ensuing crater.

I thought if the rhino was destroyed after moving flat out that the passengers couldn't disembark, including the emergency disembark from a vehicle destroyed result?

Rhino's can't move flat out. Unless you're BA.

Even if they could, the "no-disembark" only applies in that movement phase, meaning it really only applies to a Fast Skimmer that fails a Dangerous Terrain Test after moving Flat out.

Well that's good to know. It made me really question a strategy that could easily see your army squished. I'm looking forward to when I have strong grasp of the rules.

I was hoping to see some uber IG list that somehow fit 14 large blasts into 1250 points.


Where are the 14 blasts exactly?

I think op meant 4, not 14. Proberly just a typo.

Oh sorry, I meant armor 14 referring to the LR front armor. He usually only drops four large blast templates.

prolly been said befor, DP MON warptime wings. if you take noise amrines, take blastmasters

Just a quick update. The battle was a Seize ground Spearhead mission with myself deploying first. He did not take initiative.

I choose a table that would leave my opponent with a quater lacking in usable cover. My 3 havocs squads were spread out, 1 on a hill, 1 behind some bushes close to a building, and the 3rd in the open with a clear line of site into my opponents quarter.

After my opponent deployed I placed my 2 Chosen squads. One in a bunker near his lines the other on the opposite side of the board sitting on a objective I wanted to claim.

The battle went well and I only lost 1 Rhino, and 1 Havoc Squad while acquiring 2 objectives. It was a good game and we both learned alot. Thank you Nurglitch, Minigun, and everyone else for the help.
For the blood god!

Lol, who said russes have weak side armor? Armor value 13 in the side is weak?

Bhale:

Glad we could help. What were the army lists involved? Maybe make a battle-report next time if you have a camera in your phone?

scuddman:

AV14 is immune to Autocannons. AV13 is not. Weak is a relative concept.

Are you thinking of adding or changing anything with your list after that last game?

Bhale wrote:Im still worrying about his LR front 14 but I have been hankering to use the chosen. Here is the list taking the suggestions you both presented. Thanks for suggestions, i've had pretty good luck so far but those pie plates sitting on a AV14 make me pretty nervous.

HQ
Demon Prince + Wings + MoN + Nurgle's Rot 165
ELITE
5 Chosen + 1 Autocannon 110
5 Chosen + 1 Autocannon 110
TROOPS
10 CSM + 2 Meltas + Rhino 205
10 CSM + 2 Meltas + Rhino 205
10 CSM + 2 Meltas + Rhino 205
HEAVY
5 Havocs + 3 Autocannon 135
5 Havocs + 2 Autocannon 115
TOTAL 1250

thats pretty neat. The only things I would change in that list is making the DP a spartan prince (Wings/warptime, no mark) for some points for more AC's. Also, I've found ML's to be a good choice for havocs too. the versatility of frag and krak rounds is great against a force like guard, with chimera chassis being AV12 front and 10 side, and frag missiles are great for platoons in blobs if the only armour you in your LOS is say the front of a Russ. That's personal preference (just trying to give you ideas ) though.

IF you do want to take chosen, they work alright outflanking in a rhino with a bunch of special weapons. There's nothing like coming in the deep flank of your opponent with 4 meltaguns!

I don't have the spreadsheets here but my list was;
Demon Prince + Wings
2 x5 Chosen with one AC
2 x10 CSM + 2 Meltas + Rhino
1 x5 CSM (just for scoring)
3 x5 Havocs + 3 AC

My opponent fielded something like this;
2 Lemon Russes
1 x10 PBS
1 x6 Heavy Weapon Squad + 3 LG
1 x6 Heavy Weapon Squad + 3 ML
2 x10 Guard Troops
2 x5 Command Squad
I apologize for the lack of details but I don't know his army that well.

I found that the third Havoc Squad wasn't worth it and next time i'll just take another 10 man CSM squad.

I'm afraid that my army looks awful and we both still proxy. On top of that the terrain we use is still mostly just boxes and books so I won't be doing any battle reps until next summer sadly. Well maybe, we'll see.

We are pumping up the points to 1500 so maybe next game i'll take;
1 DP + wings
3 full CSM squads + 2 Meltas + 2 Rhinos
1 5 man CSM
2 5 Chosen + AC
1 10 Chosen + 4 Meltas + Rhino
2 5 Havocs + 3 AC
I still have to crunch the numbers but that sounds fun.

So we are playing another game tomorrow at 1500 points, here are two lists i'm playing with;

HQ
Demon Prince + Wings + MoN + Nurgle's Rot 165
Demon Prince + Wings + MoN + Nurgle's Rot 165
ELITE
5 Chosen + 1 Autocannon 110
5 Chosen + 1 Autocannon 110
TROOPS
5 CSM 75
10 CSM + 2 Meltas + Rhino 205
10 CSM + 2 Meltas + Rhino 205
10 CSM + 2 Flamers + Rhino 195
HEAVY
5 Havocs + 3 Autocannon 135
5 Havocs + 3 Autocannon 135
TOTAL 1500

HQ
Kharn the Betrayer 165
ELITE
5 Chosen + 1 Autocannon 110
5 Chosen + 1 Autocannon 110
TROOPS
10 CSM + 2 Meltas + Rhino + Combi-Melta 215
10 CSM + 2 Meltas + Rhino + Combi-Melta 215
9 CSM 135
HEAVY
5 Havocs + 4 Autocannon 155
5 Havocs + 4 Autocannon 155
1 Land Raider + Demonic Possession 240
TOTAL 1500

I feel pretty good about the first list and im unsure about the second. As a side note im really liking the idea of giving my chosen a personnal Icon so they can warp in 5 LD squads.
This really belongs in a new thread but I have two newb questions for you dakka-ers
1) If I obliterate a target in the shooting phase can I freely assault a new target? I don't think you can but the exception of transports confuse things and i'd like some clarrification.
2) Can I decide combi weapons on the fly. With the wysiwyg rule I assume that it has to be stated in your list but here's hoping.

I like list 1 much better but I think it needs some adjusting.
1) I don't see the point in 5 naked CSMs. I'd rather see 6 Lesser Daemons for 3 points more.
2) Since you're hurting for points, I'd drop the powers off the Princes. Its almost enough for another Rhino or some Icons.
3) Without Champions, I think your CSMs at least need IoCG. LD9 is just ok for such an expensive unit.

Hmm what about this?
HQ
Demon Prince + Wings + MoN 150
Demon Prince + Wings + MoN 150
ELITE
5 Chosen + 1 Autocannon 110
5 Chosen + 1 Autocannon 110

TROOPS
5 CSM 75
10 CSM + 2 Meltas + Rhino + MoCG 215
10 CSM + 2 Meltas + Rhino +MoCG 215
10 CSM + 2 Flamers + Rhino + MoCG 205

HEAVY
5 Havocs + 3 Autocannon 135
5 Havocs + 3 Autocannon 135
TOTAL 1500


Here is yet another list I like. The idea of using Vindies or Predators as a screen makes me happy, maybe its not effective at 1500. Has anyone else tried something like this?
HQ
Demon Prince + Wings 130
ELITE
5 Chosen + 1 Autocannon 110
5 Chosen + 1 Autocannon 110
TROOPS
5 CSM 75
10 CSM + 2 Meltas + Rhino +MoCG 215
10 CSM + 2 Meltas + Rhino +MoCG 215
10 CSM + 1 Flamers + Rhino +MoCG 200
HEAVY
5 Havocs + 4 Autocannon 155
Vindicator + DP 145
Vindicator + DP 145

I like the 5 man naked squad when I know who im playing and know he doesnt infiltrate or deepstrike or anything, its one cheap victory point.
I do like running simple Demon Princes so I can agree with that one.
I haven't been pushed to the point where I need the IoCG but I can appreciate the risk.

I appreciate the help, keep it up