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I have a question regarding Grey Knight Heroes and them joining non-Grey Knight units. If a Grey Knight Hero joins a non-Grey Knight unit and the opponent declares a Psychic Power is being used against the unit which he is a part of, are you still capable of using The Aegis special rule since he is a member of the unit being targeted? Will this also work with The Shrouding?

Is the power targeting a unit of Grey Knights?

If not, then no you cannot use Aegis/Shrouding.

As above.

As soon as a non-GK [thing] joins or is joined by a GK [thing], the unit cannot be considered a GK-unit.

nosferatu1001 wrote:As above.

As soon as a non-GK [thing] joins or is joined by a GK [thing], the unit cannot be considered a GK-unit.

I think the only exception to this would be a power that specifically targets the Grey Knight character within the unit (like Mind War), as the Aegis also identifies that it works when a Grey Knight character is targeted.

Fair enough - should always mention the exceptions! Vindicare would be the same, if targetting the GK IC.

but if it's targeting the unit it is also targeting any ICs joined to it.

therefor i would say he gets his Aegis rule.

Sigh. No, no they wouldnt.

THey are targetting a non-GK unit. How do you know this? Because the unit isnt ENTIRELY composed of GKs. So when the Aegis rule tells you to apply this rule when you are targetting a unit of GKs, attempting to apply the rule when the unit isnt a GK unit is cheating.

So no, no Aegis rule.

Exactly as Nos and Yak said, thanks for catching the 'model specific' powers.

Exactly!

The rule says it works if you are targeting Grey Knights, not "Grey Knights and some other things".

For the same reason that a Storm Bolter isn't a Bolter, "Grey Knights and some other things" is not the same as "Grey Knights".

Doesn't that run against the line of reasoning for a couple of arguments at the monment thou reguarding 'the IC becomes part of the unit'?

ChrisCP wrote:Doesn't that run against the line of reasoning for a couple of arguments at the monment thou reguarding 'the IC becomes part of the unit'?

What arguments?

The IC counts as part of the unit for the purposes of movement and shooting, but doesn't actually BECOME part of the unit. The same way that pivoting is technically movement but doesn't count as movement yada yada yada.

Not sure, but I think Snikt might be an example. It's just made my bump itch that's all.

Snikrot isn't an IC at all, he is an Upgrade Character.

Yeah I know that =) But it's just made me start rifling my head for interactions.

Gwar! wrote:Exactly!

The rule says it works if you are targeting Grey Knights, not "Grey Knights and some other things".

For the same reason that a Storm Bolter isn't a Bolter, "Grey Knights and some other things" is not the same as "Grey Knights".

Then why does a storm bolter count as a bolt weapon in the exact codex where this is an issue (see Psycannon bolts)

The wording of Shrouding says that whenever a unit of GKs is targeted, make the dice rolls to reduce the range.

not, whenever a unit of GKs (And ONLY GKs, NOTHING ELSE) is targeted.

So, say a unit of Summoned Lesser Daemons is joined by a CSM IC (non daemon) and they are within 2" of an inquisitor who then casts Sanctuary. The Daemons must treat the 3" radius as Impassible, but the IC does not (necessarily, for our purposes, lets say its a sorcerer). The daemons are also still a "Unit of daemons" and as such, if the unit wished to assault, they would have to make a difficult terrain test (as the sorcerer must go as slow as his unit) and some of them WOULD be able to place attacks on the inquisitor (as they could be within 2 inches of the sorcerer and thus be out of the Sanctuary zone and within range of assisting the sorcerer).

The above is true because the unit which contains the IC (a Unit of NON-Daemons) and the Unit of Daemons is a COMBINATION of units and as such, rules which apply to certain units sill apply to their respective units.

So, a unit with 3 Sanguinary Priests, 10 Death Company, Astorath the Grim and Greyknight Grandmaster is such

A Unit of Grey Knights (the GKGM)
A Unit of Sanguinary Priests (The 3 priests)
A unit of Death Company
AND
Astorath the Grim (or, a Unit of Reclusiarchs (sp?) )

So rules which apply to individual groupings, would apply to each... so If I am a Long Fang wanting to fire krack Missiles at a unit of Sanguinary Gaurd with a GK:Hero and a Sanguinary Priest. Because I am firing at a Unit of Grey Knights (as one of the units in the "Multi-Character unit") I must roll for the Shrouding.

Aegis on the other hand, is less clear-cut. I'd say Aegis only works if the character himself is targeted (much like how Karn's blessing of the blood god works) as there is no such thing as a "Grey knight Squad". For this kind of Psychic defense, I would reccomend giving your "Hero" Unguents of Warding.

~DAR

I am not targetting the GKs, I am targetting the GK+[other]

No shrouding.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:Then why does a storm bolter count as a bolt weapon in the exact codex where this is an issue (see Psycannon bolts)

What does that have to do with anything? It doesn't say that a Storm Bolter is a Bolter, it says Psycannon Bolts may be used in a Storm Bolter...

nosferatu1001 wrote:I am not targetting the GKs, I am targetting the GK+[other]

No shrouding.

Targeting the GKs + others is also Targeting a GK.

Thus Shrouding.

You are assuming exclusivity, which does not follow "And" logic, but "And Only if" logic. As a unit consiting of a GKGM + Non GKS is both a GK AND not a GK you would follow both.

Also, prior precedence would state that without specifying (which they have had about 5 FAQ printings if they really wanted to state otherwise) that the unit MUST contain ONLY GKs (See Tau: Stealthsuits) it would be more logical to follow the practice of "If 1 GK then Shrouding". Similarly, if >0 GKs in a unit , Daemons must ALWAYS take a Difficult Terrain Test when assaulting the unit containing said GK(s), and the GK player would be able to use Aegis on such abilities that specifically target his GK characters (such as "Gift of Chaos" for an example)

@Gwar

I figured you had made a typo and meant to say "A Storm Bolter isn't a Bolt weapon". I have no idea what relevance the statement of "For the same reason that a Storm Bolter isn't a Bolter, "Grey Knights and some other things" is not the same as "Grey Knights". " Unless you are saying that "Not all models are GreyKnights" or "Not all GreyKnights are space marines" I mean, considering your "example" one could say."While a storm bolter is not a bolter, if a model with a storm bolter is in a unit with bolters then it would still be able to use the rules for a storm bolter".

Much like, if an inquisitor with the "Targeter" wargear joins a unit of Purgation, the wargear "Targeters" still functions.

I would simply like some references/sources for the people arguing that #1 Units must be ENTIERLY GK in order to gain the benefit of shrouding and/or #2 Where in the rule book that it states that ICs lose their "Original Army" type or "Codex Special rules" when they join an other unit... all I have seen is that "Special Rules with an * are lost by any IC/Unit Joined by IC without the special rules and that "Special rules that are unique to the Character/Unit are not conferred to joining/joined Units. This however, does not necessarily imply that they are lost (moreso that they remain, but are not shared by the rest of the unit, for example, Fire Control (on long fangs)) and as the Shrouding is not 'lost' and a unit of GKs is attached to the "Unit of anythingelse" if you are targeting the "Unit of anything else" then you are targeting the "Unit of GKs" and must roll for shrouding.

~DAR

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:Targeting the GKs + others is also Targeting a GK.

So, for example, A Tyranid Prime can join a Hive Tyrant?

I know that Gwar! says no to that one, for what amounts to the same reason he gave for the targeting--as I read it.

If you think "Yes" to my question then there is basically no reason to keep going; there will be no agreement unless you change your mind.


heh

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:I am not targetting the GKs, I am targetting the GK+[other]

No shrouding.

Targeting the GKs + others is also Targeting a GK.

Thus Shrouding.

~DAR

Again, no. It's targeting a unit that contains a GK, not target ing GK unit. The rule is quite specific about that. And tehy were discussing the Aegis suit, not shrouding, but neither would apply.

This one has been beaten to death, but the argument still stands that a unit with an attached GK IC, is not a 'unit of GK's.'

don_mondo wrote:

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:I am not targetting the GKs, I am targetting the GK+[other]

No shrouding.

Targeting the GKs + others is also Targeting a GK.

Thus Shrouding.

~DAR

Again, no. It's targeting a unit that contains a GK, not target ing GK unit. The rule is quite specific about that. And tehy were discussing the Aegis suit, not shrouding, but neither would apply.

This is where we seem to disagree.

The rule states, Verbatim:

The Shrouding
The combined psychic prayers of Grey Knights are focused in battle to constantly confuse and wrong-foot their enemies, blinding their corrupted senses with the shining light of their faith and resolution. Each time and enemy unit fires at a unit of Grey Knights it must check if it can see them. Roll 3d and multiply the result by 3...

Nothing says "If the Grey Knight has joined(or has been joined by) a unit of Non-Grey Knights, this rule does not apply.

Much like how Ragnar Blackmane has the ability to give all space wolf units within 12" furious charge (once per game). If a unit of Wolf guard joined by a GKGM would be in range of this ability, the Wolf Guard would gain Furious Charge, and the GKGM would not.
Wolf Priest Ulrik allows units of Space Wolves to reroll morale checks if they can draw line of sight to him. If a unit of Space Wolves is joined by say... an inquisitor, the unit would be able to reroll its moral check as it is a unit that contains space wolves.

@Calypso
I really don't see how the argument stands if there is no backing other then "I Said So" to keep it standing...

To me, this just seems like an exploitation due to old wording and should be Errated (either way) Because based on the current logic, a GKGM would not be able to join a squad of Blood Angels Assault Termis if they are arriving via teleportation as the GKGM has the "Grey Knight special rule: Deep Strike" as opposed to the "Mission Special Rule: Deep Strike" and it does not specifically state in the codex that a GK hero and Retinue (or any other unit with the teleportation deepstrike ability) "may be held in Reserve and enter play by Deep Strike" And on that note, there are currently no rules that support joining an Independent Character to a unit during deployment, and having the entire unit arrive together via Deep Strike nor are there any rules that counter being able to place a Blood Angels IC with Jump Pack in a squad of Deep Striking Terminators and benefit from the "Decent of Angels" special rule (The unit must move as slow as posisble, 1d6 is slower then 2d6)...

So yeah...

~DAR

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

The Shrouding
The combined psychic prayers of Grey Knights are focused in battle to constantly confuse and wrong-foot their enemies, blinding their corrupted senses with the shining light of their faith and resolution. Each time and enemy unit fires at a unit of Grey Knights it must check if it can see them. Roll 3d and multiply the result by 3...

The rule is explicit, it is a unit of Grey Knights. When you join a GKGM to IST, is it a unit of Grey Knights? No it is not, it is a unit of IST joined by a GKGM...How is this an opinion question

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
Much like how Ragnar Blackmane has the ability to give all space wolf units within 12" furious charge (once per game). If a unit of Wolf guard joined by a GKGM would be in range of this ability, the Wolf Guard would gain Furious Charge, and the GKGM would not.

Okay good we agree, if a unit tries to shoot at only the GKGM, it must test for Shrouding...

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
Wolf Priest Ulrik allows units of Space Wolves to reroll morale checks if they can draw line of sight to him. If a unit of Space Wolves is joined by say... an inquisitor, the unit would be able to reroll its moral check as it is a unit that contains space wolves.

Same idea as above

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
To me, this just seems like an exploitation due to old wording and should be Errated (either way)

Like GK Force Weapons?

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
Because based on the current logic, a GKGM would not be able to join a squad of Blood Angels Assault Termis if they are arriving via teleportation as the GKGM has the "Grey Knight special rule: Deep Strike" as opposed to the "Mission Special Rule: Deep Strike" and it does not specifically state in the codex that a GK hero and Retinue (or any other unit with the teleportation deepstrike ability) "may be held in Reserve and enter play by Deep Strike" And on that note, there are currently no rules that support joining an Independent Character to a unit during deployment, and having the entire unit arrive together via Deep Strike nor are there any rules that counter being able to place a Blood Angels IC with Jump Pack in a squad of Deep Striking Terminators and benefit from the "Decent of Angels" special rule (The unit must move as slow as posisble, 1d6 is slower then 2d6)...

For all of the above, pointing out rules problems with other units does not provide justification for making up rules when they are perfectly clear. Unit of GK, not 9 IST with a GKGM...

Edit: Fixed quotes

Edit2: I think most of those examples have RAW clear results, I am just not going to go off and address all of them.

DAR: Allow me to emphasize part of the rule you posted.

"The combined psychic prayers of Grey Knights are focused in battle to constantly confuse and wrong-foot their enemies, blinding their corrupted senses with the shining light of their faith and resolution. Each time and enemy unit fires at a unit of Grey Knights it must check if it can see them. Roll 3d and multiply the result by 3"

Now, please answer the following question with a "yes" or "no."

Is this "a unit of Grey Knights?"

Daemon Archon - if you use AND logic you get:

GK + Other = GK + Not GK = Not GK (with GK =1 and not GK = 0)

The rule explicitly requires you to be Targetting a UNIT of GK

If I target a Unit that does not entirely consist of GK, I am NOT targetting a unit of GK.

It really is as simple as that.

SaintHazard wrote:
Now, please answer the following question with a "yes" or "no."

Is this "a unit of Grey Knights?"

Trick question

It is BOTH a Unit of Grey Knights AND a Unit of Storm Troopers. Therefore if targeting the COMBINED unit, you would have to test for Shrouding based on the Grey Knight unit's special rules.

Show me in the rule book where it says that ICs Change/Lose their unit type when they join a separate unit.

"The rule explicitly requires you to be Targetting a UNIT of GK

If I target a Unit that does not entirely consist of GK, I am NOT targetting a unit of GK."

Main Rule Book: Page 47

Independent Characters are represented by individual models, which fight as units in their own right.

Page 48
Special Rules
When an independent character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the 'stubborn' special rule), the unit's special rules are NOT conferred upon the character, and the character's special rules are NOT conferred upon the unit. In some cases though, the independent character or the unit may lose their special rules as a result of the character joining the unit. For example, if an independent character without the 'infiltrate' special rule joins a unit of infiltrators during deployment, the unit cannot infiltrate(see the Universal Special Rules section for details).

Sooo....

When a GKGM joins a squad of Assault Marines His special rule of "Grey Knight" is not conferred to the assault marines (nor are the Assault Marines special rules of "Combat Tactics conferred to the GKGM)... but he does not LOSE it, and he is still a "Unit of Grey Knights in his own right " (As per Main Rule Book).

So... if the combined unit of the GKGM and the assault marines is targeted by the Psychic ability "Doom" the GKGM special rule of Aegis is activated (as at least 1 unit of Grey Knights is being targeted by a psychic ability, as per the Aegis ability of the Grey Knights special rule)

If the combined unit of the GKGM and the assault marines are being shot at by war-walkers, the war-walkers must first roll 3d6 and multiply the result by 3 as per "The Shrouding" ability of the Grey Knights special rule as at least 1 unit of Grey Knights (The GKGM, part of the combined unit) is being targeted by an Enemy Unit.


Nothing in the Main rule book contradicts this

Nothing in the Daemonhunters Codex contradicts this

Nothing in the 5th edition FAQ contradicts this

Nothing in ANY of the Daemonhunters FAQs (By GW or INAT, the local FAQ) contradicts this.

So again I ask, sources for your arguments please? (For instance, an example where something in the same light is present and has been ruled to the "A unit with a GK =/= a Unit of GK" argument)

A perfect example of how this works in how I am describing would be the BA Special rule "The Red Thirst". If it didnt work as described above, allied ICs (either Daemonhunter or which hunters) would be subject to the Red Thirst ability (as you all seem to be describing a combined unit as "Only 1 Unit" instead of "Multiple units combined

Again, if there is proof that I am wrong, kudos! That means I learned something! But if the proof isn't there, maybe its time to re-assess this situation, instead of merely shrugging it off as "No, it doesn't work cause I said so, and that guy agrees with me."

But if you join a Fearless IC to a non-fearless unit, then the unit doesn't gain fearless (unless it's a Chaplain as they give Fearless to the unit)

So a GK IC joining a non-GK unit, this doesn't make the unit a GK unit, it doesn't give them Shrouding or any other GK specific rules.

Oshova

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:Trick question

No, it really isn't.

It is BOTH a Unit of Grey Knights AND a Unit of Storm Troopers. Therefore if targeting the COMBINED unit, you would have to test for Shrouding based on the Grey Knight unit's special rules.

So it's not a "Grey Knights unit" then is it, it's a "Unit of Grey Knights AND a Unit of Storm Troopers".

Except that you can't pick out ICs in shooting. Even your own. That's where your argument falls flat.

Yes, that is "a unit of Grey Knight (SINGULAR)" attached to "a unit of Inquisitorial Stormtroopers."

However, what you're suggesting requires you to pick out the "unit of Grey Knight" individually, which basic IC rules explicitly forbid.

Even so, even if we go by your definitions, a "unit of Grey Knight" is not a "unit of Grey Knights."

I propose there must be multiple Grey Knights in the unit for it to be "a unit of Grey Knights." And there's the second part of your argument that falls flat.

It's not a bad argument, it just has a few gaping holes. Namely those above.

The proof is in the statement itself, it is not a unit of GK's, you need to PROVE it is which you cannot in order to have PERMISSION to use shrouding.

What can you say about the combined unit:

It has 1 GK in it, it has X non-GK

If it is not composed entirely of GK, it is not a unit of GK. End of discussion. It is a unit of 1 GK and X other models.

Special rules, gaining or losing them by joining a unit are COMPLETELY irrelevant. The single model is still a GK, but he is not in a unit of them.

The burden is on you, you can NO MORE PROVE it IS a unit of GK by any of the sources you cited. Therefore, you do not have PERMISSION to use shrouding...

Other examples are completely irrelevant, RT is a BA rule it has no bearing on the DH codex.