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So a thought occurred to me, Chosen and Sternguard play reasonable similar (but not the same) roles in their respective armies, that of providing a firepower based Elite squad that can be tailored to gun down just about anything. They're not armed in the same way though. Because Sternguard have their Special Ammunition options being armed entirely with Combi-Meltas seems to be a popular configuration, with the Melta part picking up the slack that the Special Ammunition leaves open (at least in terms of killing stuff). Conversely, the Chosen don't have as widespread options in terms of armaments, but proportionately more can be armed with the coveted special weapons such as Melta Guns.

Why not armed a squad of Sternguard (10) with two Melta Guns and leave the rest with their Bolters instead of all Combi-Meltas? Why not arm a squad of Chosen with four Combi-Meltas and a Melta Gun? In the first case it's because a full Sternguard squad with Combi-Meltas can shoot 3 Melta shots a turn if need be and have three turns of shooting, and in the second case it's because you'd only have two turns of 3 Melta shots.

What do you think? Would Chosen benefit from popular Sternguard wisdom, or is the opposite the case, that Sternguard would benefit from Chosen tactical aptitude? Why? Why not?

Sternguard with a meltagun lose their magic bullets.
The combi-weapon lets them have magic bullets AND do exactly the same meltagun damage to the first tank target.

Chosen with a meltagun don't have magic bullets.

Both squads have 2 attacks each in combat.

I'd say Sternguard are just better than Chosen, but chaos has no magic bullets so they use what they have.

Sternguard can put out more damage. You could get a 10man sternguard unit 6 combi-meltas. That's vastly superior for popping the landraider right away. Against weaker tanks, you can fire 3 to destroy the first tank, save 3 for the next tank.

Taking meltaguns on sternguard takes away their 30" bullets, their 24" AP3 bullets, etc. The only time it would be better is if you're right next to landraiders for several turns in a row (not realistic.)

The enemy should swamp them before they can be within 6" of more than 1 tank.

The cookie cutter builds are what they are because they're based on intelligence and what actually works. Chosen are nothing like sternguard so they can't be played the same way.

Magic bullets? That's stupid jargon. Call it what it is: Special Ammunition. Similarly your reason for the 'cookie-cutter' builds being popular is laughable. I ask: Why is this smart? You say: 'Cause it's smart! And works! Good answer...

I think stern guard are full of win and chosen are full of eh whatever. special ammo is awesome. the extra attack is awesome. combi weapons on every guy is awesome. all chosen do is.... infiltrate. read: get out ahead of the rest of the army and get annihilated on turn 1.

If you think all they can do is infilitrate then you haven't played Chosen or haven't played them very well. Chosen are an amazing asset to an army because they can do their job very well. Plasma and they can hunt elite troops or MCs, Melta and they can hunt tanks and MCs or Flamers and they can hose swarms. All great setups just for different scenarios. However Sternguard with their different ammo types I think do the same as Chosen only a little better because of their ability to have many different types of ammo for different situations and still pack a melta shot. The down side to Sternguard is they are more expensive than Chosen. Down side to Chosen is they don't mutli task like Sternguard do. Just my thoughts.

Sigmatron:

Well, the whole "Multi-task" is kind of what I'm wondering about. I've found, for example, that a squad of five Chosen tends not to live long enough to make multi-shot Melta weapons a huge improvement on Combi-Meltas so why not make up the shortfall in anti-infantry power by retaining the Bolters in the Combi-Weapons?

Incidentally: My preferred configuration for Chosen is currently a ten-man squad with an Icon of Khorne, two Plasma Guns, two Flamers, and an Aspiring Champion with a Plasma Pistol, Power Weapon, and Melta Bombs. The notion is that they wreck transports and burn the infantry inside. The Icon of Khorne is just there for attacks of opportunity or if my opponent decides to lock them up in combat. Their utility is really anti-infantry and anti-vehicle (parsed as AV10-12).

I'd been play 'counts-as' with various configurations of Sternguard before I left Toronto, and now I'm in Ottawa (and still haven't made it to the FLGS) I want to add a Sternguard squad to my inventory. The cost of equipping them all with Combi-Meltas (and MkVI helmets...) is a little daunting, so I'm trying to figure what sort of alternatives there are, configuration-wise. It's a new town, there's a tournament in February, at my current rate of collecting and painting I might squeek by under the wire...

(Nota Bene: yes, I'm aware of Chapter House's combi-weapons, no, I'm not buying any)

I see Chosen as an infiltrating or outflanking unit. Then they should be able to reach their target quickly, eventually without being shot before.
The same holds for Sternguard. They can get a Drop Pod to go where they want to.

So similar roles dictates similar armaments?

Nurglitch, I am having a hard time seeing your 10 man squads usefulness. That is a boatload of points, and they dont really do anything exciting. Outflank seems weaker than deepstrike as far as chaos goes, thanks to the icon support. Also, if you use the 5 plasma shots to pop a transport you cant assault thanks to the rapid fire. Finally, in my experience with chaos the flamers are almost worthless compared to meltaguns, since assaulting does what flamers do.

In my chaos lists, I use termies to do what you use choosen for. A 5 man termie unit I run has 2 fists, 3 powerweaps, 1 heavy flamer and 4 combi melta. Less than 200 points, I can deep strike with icon support, still get the shooting, and with a 2+/5++ its harder to kill.

Thus I would think that chaos termies are a better match to marine sternguard. You trade special ammo for a power weapon, not a bad trade, you still get 5 point combi weapons, and you pay 5 points for a 2+/5++, which goes without saying is a fantastic value. Deepstrike washes the choosen outflank.

EDIT: To clarify why I think flamers are bad--in a 10 man squad, on the assault you deal 30 s4 attacks. Thus you are not lacking s4. Flamers are only s4, thus dont add anything new. If 30 s4 attacks are not sufficient to win combat, plus pistol shots, then the few extra s4 flamer wounds wont help much. Sure there are times when you are facing down 180 ork boyz, but that army is very rare, and lets be honest 2 flamers are not gonna carry you through that slog. Plus, you dont penetrate most armor with ap5, thus the cover negating benefit is limited to guard and orks.

Nurglitch wrote:So similar roles dictates similar armaments?

Both units are elite and so defending an objective is not their issue.
Their use is to disrupt enemy plans.
For this, they have an alpha-strike ability.
At this point, the armament comes into play.

I've just started using Chosen (again) and while they're similiar to Sternguard in the codex armies, they are quite different.

Sternguard are more specialised for anti infantry with the "magic bullets" as someone said, or special ammo as others say. These rounds are practically all anti infantry having no cover save, long range, wound on 2+ and AP3. Pretty much everything to deal with infantry. Then to compliment them you can take combis which have a more defined role i.e melta for tanks. Lets forget the heavy weaps at the mo...

Chosen are different because they can be configured for different roles because of the weapon options they have. They can be kitted for close combat, but that's not a good idea. More better is mass special weapons giving the Chosen a more definate role instead of pure anti infantry with a little bit extra on the side like Sternguard. Chosen can bust tanks, monstrous creatures, tough infantry and hordes with the likes of melta, plasma and flamer.

To answer the questions:

Both units have different roles. Sternguard is a fixed role with a little bit extra on the side and Chosen role is a variety of allsorts. Until Chosen get something definate like Sternguard for anti infantry (which I doubt) then they will be different units with different abilities. Personally, I think both perform well at what they're designed to do.

5 x Plasma Rifles will laugh at FNP units - the Sternguard can't match that for a sustained time. 5 x MG can pop any tank - Sternguard can't match that sustained fire of true MG. 5 x Flamers will drop hoards all day - now different but Sternguard can match this and do it from 30". Combi-weapons mean sternguard can do anything well for a short period of time but their magic rounds make them some of the best anti-infantry in the game at all times.

The difference is Sterngard can do all these reasonably well but Chosen can out shine them in a specific role. So if you are building an all comers list, Sternguard are superior but if you have a well defined role for them Chosen can do it better.

I use an autocannon, 4 plasma guns, and the icon of Tzeentch on my 9 man chosen squad. They are mounted in a rhino with extra armor and a havok launcher.

Early game they sit in the rhino and fire the autocannon at enemy transports or dreadnaughts. I generally have about 5-6 autocannons doing this for the first turn or two.

Later they can move 6" and fire 2 plasmaguns up to 12", or move 12", disembark, and fire all 4 plasma guns. I found the 5+ invulnerable save to be useful when disembarking.

They are about 60 points more expensive than my mechanized CSM squads. I haven't bothered to outflank with them yet, because I try to maximize my autocannon shots early in the game.

When playing city fight or using a non mechanized force for some reason, I have used a 5 man chosen squad with 4 plasma guns + autocannon or 5 plasma guns. I usually use no icon or maybe the icon of Slaanesh. These guys infiltrate and have done well.

Just because you infiltrate it doesn't mean you have to stick them right out in the enemy's face. Instead I put them in a good defensive position with good fields of fire covering the enemies avenues of approach. Sometimes I have them go to ground when shot at on turn 1 since they won't have a 12" or less shot anyway.

Sigmatron wrote:If you think all they can do is infilitrate then you haven't played Chosen or haven't played them very well. Chosen are an amazing asset to an army because they can do their job very well. Plasma and they can hunt elite troops or MCs, Melta and they can hunt tanks and MCs or Flamers and they can hose swarms. All great setups just for different scenarios. However Sternguard with their different ammo types I think do the same as Chosen only a little better because of their ability to have many different types of ammo for different situations and still pack a melta shot. The down side to Sternguard is they are more expensive than Chosen. Down side to Chosen is they don't mutli task like Sternguard do. Just my thoughts.

ahhhh.... the classic "well then you just dont know how to play." somehow I never get tired of it.....
there are better ways to put special weapons on the table than chosen. your basic chaos squad can take 4, a havoc squad can have 6. You dont need or want to infiltrate these guys, so you dont want to pay the extra points to do it. Yes special weapons are good at killing certain targets. thankyou for enlightening me.

Stern guard are better bc, as nurglitch said, the difference between a special and a combi is pretty close to zip if the squad is a priority target. besides that hitting with up to 10 combi weapons in 1 turn can be much stronger than hitting with 4-6 special weapons, because the 10 combis happen right away, leaving less stuff for your opponent to throw at you next turn. repeated a couple of times and it can be a 2-400 point swing in 1 turn. special ammo gives you flexibility that the specials dont have and gives you something to do after youve shot the combis. the sternguard are just plain better. AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:
there are better ways to put special weapons on the table than chosen. your basic chaos squad can take 4, a havoc squad can have 6.

How? Not disagree the chosen are expensive but .... CSM can take 2 specail weapons and havocs can take 4 ... unless you count combi-weapons?

AbaddonFidelis wrote: your basic chaos squad can take 4, a havoc squad can have 6.

Isn't that 2 and 4, or are we counting a combi weapon on the champion and a combi weapon on the rhino?

In that case Chosen could have at least 6.

@AbaddonFidelis

Yes Sternguard are more flexible but at a base cost of 25.
No codex so forgive if I am wrong but 5 PR are 75 pts and say a squad of 10 Chosen is a base of around 180 so for 5 points I have 5 PR and 5 bolters versus the 10 Sternguard.
5 S7 shots and 5 bolters versus 10 special bolter ammo out to 24". Definitely Sternguard are a better buy but not an option for CSM. Chosen with infiltrate are cheaper to place in a good firing position than Sterngard that need a Drop pod to do the same. If all you want is SW firebase, Havocs will do it cheaper but they lack infiltrate so you place with your army deployment. Infiltrate give CSM an ability to position Chosen where they will definitely do the most good. (especially when CSM deploys and goes 1st)

Put them in the same codex and I would chose Sternguard but as it is, Chosen is the CSM "equivalent."

yes I count the combi weapons


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DAaddict wrote:@AbaddonFidelis

Yes Sternguard are more flexible but at a base cost of 25.
No codex so forgive if I am wrong but 5 PR are 75 pts and say a squad of 10 Chosen is a base of around 180 so for 5 points I have 5 PR and 5 bolters versus the 10 Sternguard.
5 S7 shots and 5 bolters versus 10 special bolter ammo out to 24". Definitely Sternguard are a better buy but not an option for CSM. Chosen with infiltrate are cheaper to place in a good firing position than Sterngard that need a Drop pod to do the same. If all you want is SW firebase, Havocs will do it cheaper but they lack infiltrate so you place with your army deployment. Infiltrate give CSM an ability to position Chosen where they will definitely do the most good. (especially when CSM deploys and goes 1st)

Put them in the same codex and I would chose Sternguard but as it is, Chosen is the CSM "equivalent."

the issue with infiltrate as a mobility option is that it gets you there too fast. you dont want to be in their face on turn 1 with 1 unit, bc for that turn that 1 unit will be staring down their whole army. with no rhino, they can't hide in their metal box and they can't maneuver. So I think their mobility is actually worse with infiltrate than it would be without. the only other thing you can do with them is out flank, which requires holding them in reseres..... this imo is bad for alot of reasons. you either want your whole army on the table or your whole army in reserve, so you dont show up piecemeal. chosen probably are the closest thing csm have to stern guard.... I really think stern guard are stronger. csm have so many special weapon options its not really clear to me why chosen are needed. AF

Nurglitch wrote:
What do you think? Would Chosen benefit from popular Sternguard wisdom, or is the opposite the case, that Sternguard would benefit from Chosen tactical aptitude? Why? Why not?

I don't think one would benefit greatly from the other's advice or tactics.
While the squads are equivalent in their respective codex, they also have some significant differences beyond just the type of weapons they can use.
Drop Pods/Razorbacks/Rhinos will tend to use different tactics and builds then Infiltrating or Outflanking, at least in my opinion.
The fact that Chosen are "only" CSMs with Infiltrate is less significant then the differences between a Tactical Squad and Sternguard, this is one of the reasons that people (like AF) state that its almost better just to use more CSMs then pay extra for the Chosen whereas the Sternguard bring much more to the board then a Tactical Squad but you're paying alot more for those bonuses.

As for the weapons, I think the difference is really that you people don't like to pay to replace an "upgraded" weapon like the special ammo Bolters with a weapon that you can get elsewhere (meltaguns). I know I don't.

Nurglitch wrote:Magic bullets? That's stupid jargon. Call it what it is: Special Ammunition. Similarly your reason for the 'cookie-cutter' builds being popular is laughable. I ask: Why is this smart? You say: 'Cause it's smart! And works! Good answer...

It's smart and it works, and that's a good answer. Sorry if you don't like it. Drop the nerd rage attitude, it comes through in too many of your posts. That said...

You're almost always better off firing a meltagun at 12" than a regular bolter. This is why you don't give Chosen combiweapons.

Special Issue Ammunition vs. a Meltagun shot is situational. Rapidfiring Hellfire ammo into an MC is better than single-shotting meltagun fire, and rapidfiring Kraken rounds into light infantry in cover is better than single-shotting meltagun fire.

Oh noes! NuggzTheNinja is accusing me of nerd rage! How ever will I live up to his cool?

Seriously though, establishing a set of value-criteria and explaining why something satisfies that criteria is a good answer. Simply asserting that criteria makes a bad answer.

Which is interesting because you've managed to actually give a good answer, with which I just happen to disagree.

I don't think that it's almost always better for a Chosen to fire a Melta Gun than to fire a Bolter, and it's related to the reason I equip mine with Plasma Guns, and Flamethrowers. The Plasma Guns have a 24" range, like Bolters, meaning that the squad can engage targets 13"-24" away if they don't move. That means they can camp in cover where they were deployed and pot enemy transports without having to close to Rapid Fire range of those transports' contents.

Thanks to Drop Pods Sternguard have a much easier time getting close enough to use their Combi-Meltas at optimum range. However, I've noticed that it tends to leave them in range to be annihilated by whatever they didn't kill. They may kill a Land Raider, for example, but will in turn be wiped out by the Terminators spilling out of its wreckage.

They seem to survive better using the stand-off range of their Special Ammunition, and using the Combi-Meltas to mangle incoming Walkers and heavy tanks, rather than actively hunting them. By using Combi-Meltas they combine the consistent anti-infantry firepower with anti-tank opportunity fire.

Four Combi-Meltas and a Heavy Bolter or something similar in a unit of ten Chosen would seem to accomplish the same task: allow them to concentrate on anti-infantry work while giving them a capacity for targets of opportunity that would otherwise feth them in close combat.

Conversely it seems to me that a squad of Sternguard similarly configured would have similar abilities.

Sternguard guard get combi-weapons (at least when i uses them) as a last resort. They have one job shoot infantry. They do it well. Taking a special or Heavy weapon detracts from this but combi-weapons don't: I know that if nothing else I've 3 Meltagun shots i can turn on that rogue landraider or 2 flamers for the charging orks.

Chosen also have one job but its the job you build them for. Give them meltaguns they hunt tanks, Plasma H.Infantry and Light armour and give them flamers so they may roast Hordes of light infantry and then charge them. Make no mistakes those 18pts models are a throw-away unit giving you a chance to move the rest forwards.

For someone who has 8000 posts, this is a very odd question.

First of all Nurglitch, chosen are more akin to space marine command squads.

The point is Nurglitch, sternguard are priority 1 targets, they wont last long enough to take out more than one or 2 tanks. Dropping 10 all with combi meltas is a waste. Drop pod 5 with 5 combi meltas and you have a guaranteed high priority armour kill, plus some serious punch post-tank-destruction with your magic bulllets (I apologize).

you can combat squad them right out of the drop pod, so the pod actually delivers 2 5 man units. thats 2 devastating shooting attacks right out of the pod. assuming the pod doesnt deviate too badly it really can be devastating. AF

Jaon:

Post count is irrelevant. What is relevant is that, as I mentioned in my third post, I'm trying to build a squad with as few Combi-Meltas as possible because I want a WYSIWYG squad, and Combi-Meltas are a pig to get a hold of.

Edit: Oops, didn't mention this in the first post.

They are? Just buy 5 MGs from GW and cut the barrel of. Easy peasy

Azrael the Departed:

Difficulty level: No metal. If I'm going metal I might as well order some Sternguard Combi-Meltas.