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Thread for knights tactica

Alright, I have been trying and trying to make a Cawlstar make sense post FAQ. I give up. I don't like it anymore. It has too many counters and I can't cover the weaknesses anymore. This is what I am thinking for sunday instead. I have all these models.

SISTERS command - Celestine+Gem, 2x cannoness with combiplasma

STYGIES battalion - TPD, Engi, 1x9 omnispex rangers, 2x9 omnispex vanguard, 3x1 icarusonager, 1x4 dragoons

BLANGELS battalion - smash/mephiston/sparesmash + 3x5 scouts

I call it herohammer. STYGIES anchors my lines with a wad of -1 to be shot stuff that is pretty tough and is good against screens and flyers. Then I have 4 heroes to go in and bring the pain on the heavy targets. STYGIES requires less CP than MARS to make work and provides me with all kinds of deployment flexibility. I am liking 9 man squads of STYGIES troops for anti screen and forward objective camping. The omnispex doubles their damage output against 3+ models in cover and punishes tree whoring nurgle armies and also punishes eldar rangers who rely on the +2 to cover saves. I only have 5 sisters of silence bodies to act as sisters of battle, so I am limited to bringing some cannonesses modeled from the sisters of silence.

Wulfey wrote:
Alright, I have been trying and trying to make a Cawlstar make sense post FAQ. I give up. I don't like it anymore. It has too many counters and I can't cover the weaknesses anymore. This is what I am thinking for sunday instead. I have all these models.

SISTERS command - Celestine+Gem, 2x cannoness with combiplasma

STYGIES battalion - TPD, Engi, 1x9 omnispex rangers, 2x9 omnispex vanguard, 3x1 icarusonager, 1x4 dragoons

BLANGELS battalion - smash/mephiston/sparesmash + 3x5 scouts

I call it herohammer. STYGIES anchors my lines with a wad of -1 to be shot stuff that is pretty tough and is good against screens and flyers. Then I have 4 heroes to go in and bring the pain on the heavy targets. STYGIES requires less CP than MARS to make work and provides me with all kinds of deployment flexibility. I am liking 9 man squads of STYGIES troops for anti screen and forward objective camping. The omnispex doubles their damage output against 3+ models in cover and punishes tree whoring nurgle armies and also punishes eldar rangers who rely on the +2 to cover saves. I only have 5 sisters of silence bodies to act as sisters of battle, so I am limited to bringing some cannonesses modeled from the sisters of silence.

I like your list, but am concerned that it may have trouble with gunlines that can keep you from getting into close combat with important targets. Overwatch Tau can punish this list pretty hard.

Celestine can circumvent multiple layers of wrapping by flying 24", but the BLANGELS cannot. In addition, do you think that you can really extract the point value out of the cannonesses? What targets are they intended to go after?

Wulfey wrote:
Alright, I have been trying and trying to make a Cawlstar make sense post FAQ. I give up. I don't like it anymore. It has too many counters and I can't cover the weaknesses anymore. This is what I am thinking for sunday instead. I have all these models.

SISTERS command - Celestine+Gem, 2x cannoness with combiplasma

STYGIES battalion - TPD, Engi, 1x9 omnispex rangers, 2x9 omnispex vanguard, 3x1 icarusonager, 1x4 dragoons

BLANGELS battalion - smash/mephiston/sparesmash + 3x5 scouts

I call it herohammer. STYGIES anchors my lines with a wad of -1 to be shot stuff that is pretty tough and is good against screens and flyers. Then I have 4 heroes to go in and bring the pain on the heavy targets. STYGIES requires less CP than MARS to make work and provides me with all kinds of deployment flexibility. I am liking 9 man squads of STYGIES troops for anti screen and forward objective camping. The omnispex doubles their damage output against 3+ models in cover and punishes tree whoring nurgle armies and also punishes eldar rangers who rely on the +2 to cover saves. I only have 5 sisters of silence bodies to act as sisters of battle, so I am limited to bringing some cannonesses modeled from the sisters of silence.

What exactly is your issue with making Cawlstar work? It is point-and-click and our answer to a vast array of problems.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Wulfey wrote:
Alright, I have been trying and trying to make a Cawlstar make sense post FAQ. I give up. I don't like it anymore. It has too many counters and I can't cover the weaknesses anymore. This is what I am thinking for sunday instead. I have all these models.

SISTERS command - Celestine+Gem, 2x cannoness with combiplasma

STYGIES battalion - TPD, Engi, 1x9 omnispex rangers, 2x9 omnispex vanguard, 3x1 icarusonager, 1x4 dragoons

BLANGELS battalion - smash/mephiston/sparesmash + 3x5 scouts

I call it herohammer. STYGIES anchors my lines with a wad of -1 to be shot stuff that is pretty tough and is good against screens and flyers. Then I have 4 heroes to go in and bring the pain on the heavy targets. STYGIES requires less CP than MARS to make work and provides me with all kinds of deployment flexibility. I am liking 9 man squads of STYGIES troops for anti screen and forward objective camping. The omnispex doubles their damage output against 3+ models in cover and punishes tree whoring nurgle armies and also punishes eldar rangers who rely on the +2 to cover saves. I only have 5 sisters of silence bodies to act as sisters of battle, so I am limited to bringing some cannonesses modeled from the sisters of silence.

What exactly is your issue with making Cawlstar work? It is point-and-click and our answer to a vast array of problems.

It requires a huge investment and is effectively all in on a single strategy. If my opponent brings too much T7 that shoots, I can't kill it all. If my opponent brings some super sneaky wrap around fast melee stuff I can't screen out, then I lose. If there is too much terrain and I can't get LOS, I am boned. Don't get me wrong, I have been running it for a year. But when you get countered you are countered hard. 5 robots performed catastrophically versus Tau stormsurges, even shooting first, due to the storm surges being able to spam the mortal wound missiles that bypass my defenses (I forgot about the 5+ ignore mortal wound strategem). I do like how the list is point and click and has a very short movement phase. And running it with the warhammer dice app lets me finish games 30 minutes early. Post FAQ it is super hard to get that balance between firepower, counter melee, non-LOS, and screening right. If I just gave up on scouts xor gave up on celestine I think then the cawlstar would have enough CP to work, but ... hrm ... so indecisive ...

EDIT: wait .. .I think I found how to save the cawlstar. The problem was not having enough CP. This frees up 2 more CP using the plasma-cannonesses. Hmm this list looks very easy to play.

BLANGELS - 2x slam captain, 3x5 scouts
MARS - Cawl, Engi, 3x5 rangers, 1x5 dakkabots, 2x1 neutrons
SISTERS - Celestine, 2x plasmacannonnesses

It might be that you are just doing too much with your list? I dunno, haven't played in a while and don't dabble in Soup.

So, is agripinaa any worth trying? I have my skitarii painted in ryza colours, but I kinda like the overwatch bonus agripinaa has. And my guard army would like them as an addittion to their ranks.

Wulfey wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Wulfey wrote:
Alright, I have been trying and trying to make a Cawlstar make sense post FAQ. I give up. I don't like it anymore. It has too many counters and I can't cover the weaknesses anymore. This is what I am thinking for sunday instead. I have all these models.

SISTERS command - Celestine+Gem, 2x cannoness with combiplasma

STYGIES battalion - TPD, Engi, 1x9 omnispex rangers, 2x9 omnispex vanguard, 3x1 icarusonager, 1x4 dragoons

BLANGELS battalion - smash/mephiston/sparesmash + 3x5 scouts

I call it herohammer. STYGIES anchors my lines with a wad of -1 to be shot stuff that is pretty tough and is good against screens and flyers. Then I have 4 heroes to go in and bring the pain on the heavy targets. STYGIES requires less CP than MARS to make work and provides me with all kinds of deployment flexibility. I am liking 9 man squads of STYGIES troops for anti screen and forward objective camping. The omnispex doubles their damage output against 3+ models in cover and punishes tree whoring nurgle armies and also punishes eldar rangers who rely on the +2 to cover saves. I only have 5 sisters of silence bodies to act as sisters of battle, so I am limited to bringing some cannonesses modeled from the sisters of silence.

What exactly is your issue with making Cawlstar work? It is point-and-click and our answer to a vast array of problems.

It requires a huge investment and is effectively all in on a single strategy. If my opponent brings too much T7 that shoots, I can't kill it all. If my opponent brings some super sneaky wrap around fast melee stuff I can't screen out, then I lose. If there is too much terrain and I can't get LOS, I am boned. Don't get me wrong, I have been running it for a year. But when you get countered you are countered hard. 5 robots performed catastrophically versus Tau stormsurges, even shooting first, due to the storm surges being able to spam the mortal wound missiles that bypass my defenses (I forgot about the 5+ ignore mortal wound strategem). I do like how the list is point and click and has a very short movement phase. And running it with the warhammer dice app lets me finish games 30 minutes early. Post FAQ it is super hard to get that balance between firepower, counter melee, non-LOS, and screening right. If I just gave up on scouts xor gave up on celestine I think then the cawlstar would have enough CP to work, but ... hrm ... so indecisive ...

EDIT: wait .. .I think I found how to save the cawlstar. The problem was not having enough CP. This frees up 2 more CP using the plasma-cannonesses. Hmm this list looks very easy to play.

BLANGELS - 2x slam captain, 3x5 scouts
MARS - Cawl, Engi, 3x5 rangers, 1x5 dakkabots, 2x1 neutrons
SISTERS - Celestine, 2x plasmacannonnesses

Who’s your warlord in the above scenario? You using one of the slams or going enginseer
For CP gain?

So in ITC I can actually choose that at the start of the game. I am not sure which one is the way to go. I need to run some simulations in node. I need to ask the blood angels guys if it worth it to give him a WLT. Artisan of war is pretty cool, takes his hammer up to 4 damage. If I see a baneblade he is my WL for sure. If I don't have the primest of smash targets, go enginseer and the raiment of the technomarty and 6+/6+. I could even have Celestine be WL for 6+++ and give a relic sword to one of the girls if I see an enemy that I know is coming into my lines. This is kind of why I almost want to run 2 smash captains just so I have the option to possibly go double BLANGELS relics and have two smashers who take all my CP. Meph I am not super sold on, but he takes less CP to get working than a smash captain.

Wulfey wrote:
... go enginseer and the raiment of the technomarty ...

depiction of the raiment of the technomarty, 41.440 Colorized

Wulfey wrote:
If I just gave up on scouts xor gave up on celestine I think then the cawlstar would have enough CP to work, but ... hrm ... so indecisive ...

EDIT: wait .. .I think I found how to save the cawlstar. The problem was not having enough CP. This frees up 2 more CP using the plasma-cannonesses. Hmm this list looks very easy to play.

BLANGELS - 2x slam captain, 3x5 scouts
MARS - Cawl, Engi, 3x5 rangers, 1x5 dakkabots, 2x1 neutrons
SISTERS - Celestine, 2x plasmacannonnesses

I agree that this is the problem. That is why I am still anchored to the 5+/5+ Commander with two Battalions. You need to forego Scouts and Celestine for the Cawlstar.

My worries for your list are that you don't have enough screening bodies in general now. Remember that not needing to worry about T1 charge means we need to worry about T2 charge. Durability and/or body count matter more for screens now.

I do disagree with your statement on hard counters though. I think Kastelans can handle even T7s, given enough CP. You have also got Dragoons, which open up T7s like tin cans, and Neutron Crawlers, which are inconsistent at times, but can do spectacular kills. Furthermore, there are extremes in every meta. Indeed, every top 8 army is an exercise in extremes as a dominant strategy (every edition is led by a few non-interactive, all-in strategies). 200 zombies with their horde abuse, Dark Reaper spam for their shooting alpha abuse, Slamguinius for the T1 charge abuse, Flyrant spam because of course something that is good at everything can also fly, etc. But a lot of those strategies are gone, and the FAQ has done a reasonable job making balanced armies the norm. Plus, for the first time ever, we can adopt a dominant strategy. How cool is that?

 Spreelock wrote:
So, is agripinaa any worth trying? I have my skitarii painted in ryza colours, but I kinda like the overwatch bonus agripinaa has. And my guard army would like them as an addittion to their ranks.

Most of the forge world dogma rules are just not good, sadly.

 LexOdin9 wrote:

Wulfey wrote:
... go enginseer and the raiment of the technomarty ...

depiction of the raiment of the technomarty, 41.440 Colorized

Spoiler:

Debate: What is the best AdMech relic? Autocaduceus of Arkhan Land or Raiment of the Technomartyrs?

 ph34r wrote:

 Spreelock wrote:
So, is agripinaa any worth trying? I have my skitarii painted in ryza colours, but I kinda like the overwatch bonus agripinaa has. And my guard army would like them as an addittion to their ranks.

Most of the forge world dogma rules are just not good, sadly.

I theoretically LOVE Graia for a strong back field and a solid warlord trait. Charge my Rangers? Have fun being shot by the ones not dead after being charged!

Ultimately I want to do Deep Strike Lucius Vanguard, Graia Rangers, and Stygies Crawlers for a whole list. I haven't put together a list for this army in VERY long though.

Well, at first glance, the codex simply does not offer any no-brainer choices for anything (dogmas/relics). And canticles are simply bonus, not something you can build your list on (compared to drukhari combat drugs). After serious brain storming, agripinaa would perform better than ryza (imo).

 Spreelock wrote:
Well, at first glance, the codex simply does not offer any no-brainer choices for anything (dogmas/relics). And canticles are simply bonus, not something you can build your list on (compared to drukhari combat drugs). After serious brain storming, agripinaa would perform better than ryza (imo).

I think that's mostly a fact, actually. Overwatch bonus is good even for our melee units as some of them have a surprising amount of shots, and sometimes opponents will like to charge you first just to deny any bonus you might get.

Metallica is objectively the single worst thing ever in the game though; yes I'm talking about all of 8th edition. The trait is super specific, the Relic might be the single worst in the game due to availability, the Warlord Trait is meh and mostly comparable to Graia (though they do have pros and cons to each), and the Strategem is pretty tame.

Suzuteo wrote:

 LexOdin9 wrote:

Wulfey wrote:
... go enginseer and the raiment of the technomarty ...

depiction of the raiment of the technomarty, 41.440 Colorized

Spoiler:

Debate: What is the best AdMech relic? Autocaduceus of Arkhan Land or Raiment of the Technomartyrs?

Have you had much mileage with the phosphoenix? I tend to use it for increased shooting but has proved fruitless so far.

 Ideasweasel wrote:

Have you had much mileage with the phosphoenix? I tend to use it for increased shooting but has proved fruitless so far.

The phosphoenix isn't a pistol so I think it's quite limiting. A TPD when in a bind can be pretty good to hold up some chaff or semi-strong assault units from charging your backlines. The 5-shot pistol is quite useful then, and it doesn't "cost" you a relic

PiñaColada wrote:

 Ideasweasel wrote:

Have you had much mileage with the phosphoenix? I tend to use it for increased shooting but has proved fruitless so far.

The phosphoenix isn't a pistol so I think it's quite limiting. A TPD when in a bind can be pretty good to hold up some chaff or semi-strong assault units from charging your backlines. The 5-shot pistol is quite useful then, and it doesn't "cost" you a relic

Yeah I’m thinking of ditching it. Have had zero games where it has been of any use. Might go for Lands pimp cane instead

Suzuteo wrote:


Debate: What is the best AdMech relic? Autocaduceus of Arkhan Land or Raiment of the Technomartyrs?

Well I am only new to Admech, but the Raiment looks so terrible on paper I don't think I would ever take it. Is it 6+++ and fire again on a 6 when doing overwatch? Neither of these are going to happen very often unless you have incredible luck ( saving on average 1 out of 6 wounds on a 5 wound model, and the overwatch one still only gives you 1/6 chance of hitting with your bonus shot).

Am I missing something?

Mark.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:


Metallica is objectively the single worst thing ever in the game though; yes I'm talking about all of 8th edition. The trait is super specific, the Relic might be the single worst in the game due to availability, the Warlord Trait is meh and mostly comparable to Graia (though they do have pros and cons to each), and the Strategem is pretty tame.

*looks at whole Metalica army*



Glad no one objects to count-as.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Spreelock wrote:
Well, at first glance, the codex simply does not offer any no-brainer choices for anything (dogmas/relics). And canticles are simply bonus, not something you can build your list on (compared to drukhari combat drugs). After serious brain storming, agripinaa would perform better than ryza (imo).

I think that's mostly a fact, actually. Overwatch bonus is good even for our melee units as some of them have a surprising amount of shots, and sometimes opponents will like to charge you first just to deny any bonus you might get.

Metallica is objectively the single worst thing ever in the game though; yes I'm talking about all of 8th edition. The trait is super specific, the Relic might be the single worst in the game due to availability, the Warlord Trait is meh and mostly comparable to Graia (though they do have pros and cons to each), and the Strategem is pretty tame.

To rub salt in the wound, it's the hardest scheme to paint and the decals have been out of print for years. I had to get my decals custom made.

It's kind of hilarious how specific their trait is too. It really only affects vanguard, and phosphor pistols on dominuses. I mean having the option to advance and shoot with rangers is cute but it doesn't work for pistols on infiltrators for example. It should've been like the necron trait where we at least got to ignore the penalty for moving with heavy weapons or something.

Oh well, I'll stick with them and if I have to play a tournament I'll run them as stygies I guess

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

To rub salt in the wound, it's the hardest scheme to paint and the decals have been out of print for years. I had to get my decals custom made.

The decals went OOP last year, I believe. Still gone, but not that long ago. That being said, I can't find them on eBay or anything. I would love to get more of the crenelated lines for my robes.

GW needs to stop this mess with decals. The Knight one was the worst culprit, imo. It was far too limited in its release and getting them became absurdly expensive.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Spreelock wrote:
Well, at first glance, the codex simply does not offer any no-brainer choices for anything (dogmas/relics). And canticles are simply bonus, not something you can build your list on (compared to drukhari combat drugs). After serious brain storming, agripinaa would perform better than ryza (imo).

I think that's mostly a fact, actually. Overwatch bonus is good even for our melee units as some of them have a surprising amount of shots, and sometimes opponents will like to charge you first just to deny any bonus you might get.

Metallica is objectively the single worst thing ever in the game though; yes I'm talking about all of 8th edition. The trait is super specific, the Relic might be the single worst in the game due to availability, the Warlord Trait is meh and mostly comparable to Graia (though they do have pros and cons to each), and the Strategem is pretty tame.

To rub salt in the wound, it's the hardest scheme to paint and the decals have been out of print for years. I had to get my decals custom made.

It's kind of hilarious how specific their trait is too. It really only affects vanguard, and phosphor pistols on dominuses. I mean having the option to advance and shoot with rangers is cute but it doesn't work for pistols on infiltrators for example. It should've been like the necron trait where we at least got to ignore the penalty for moving with heavy weapons or something.

Oh well, I'll stick with them and if I have to play a tournament I'll run them as stygies I guess

The only models we have with heavy weapons that dont already ignore movement penalties are TPD and Ballistarii lol

the Lucius Dogma is actually really good against primaris, makes all their fancy bolters into bog standard SM bolters with extra range.

So guys what are your experience regarding a large enough screen: Are 30 Guardsman + 15 Skitarii enough for you?

In my experience, I have run 30-50 man guard screens. They still all die. People bring bolters now because they expect chaff. And when it comes to admech screens, if it aint STYGIES, don't bring it. You need STYGIES rangers screens or gtfo. Also, the truly fast melee units have ways to simply hop over screens. What matters more than screen quantity is screen space. I won my last game because a mortar team advanced and 1 of them got behind terrain and I pulled his friends as casualties and then spent CP to pass morale. That 1 survivor who got up farther than he should pushed the obliterator deepstrike out of range of my basilisks and won me the game.

Also, no matter how thick your screen is, it won't hold back 90 dice from a genestealer/bloodletter/ork bomb. But a suicide scout squad can space out their deepstrike and speed bump them so they are nicely in LOS for your robots.

So that leaves three screen units.

Skitarii - low space, no scout, and not durable for points unless STYGIES, but sometimes you need to take them as a tax. I will likely run MARS rangers just as backfield spacers and campers to keep deepstrikes at bay.

Scouts - irritating to bring because of the no-soup nerf, but these will save you from alpha legion infiltrates and all other manner of first turn tricks that bypass the DS nerf

Guard - ultra flimsy and generally crappy shooters and irritating to play because their shooting isn't all the same type (las pistol / las rifle / mortar). BUT they have one of the best screen tricks in the game - the MOVE MOVE MOVE order allows them to move 12 + 2d6 a turn, which is absolutely massive when it comes to screening by distance.

We could just spam Dragoons, right? Three units of three with a throwaway HQ? That would give us spacing and durability? And that Outrider wouldn't be too pricey and has the bonus of being able to do other stuff.

EDIT:
If you put them length-wise at coherency, you have quite an area of coverage. Back this up with another line of them and leave no room for full units or big stuff to jump comfortably over you and that might be the screen we need... which is funny, because that was what we started with in our Index days!

That's a lot of cash for something that's not too pricey. 9 x $50 USD = $450 for just the dragoons. That's almost the cost of another 2000 point army.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
That's a lot of cash for something that's not too pricey. 9 x $50 USD = $450 for just the dragoons. That's almost the cost of another 2000 point army.

Expensive hobby is expensive. But the idea seems good to me, even if I will wince and grind my teeth when I swipe my card buying these things...

And to compound this, they are misery to build and paint. Truly, this strategy is pure masochism.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
That's a lot of cash for something that's not too pricey. 9 x $50 USD = $450 for just the dragoons. That's almost the cost of another 2000 point army.

This is why I don't run hardcore dragoon lists. I know that a 9 dragoon list is legit. But I don't want to thrown down 300 bucks for 5 more dragoons.

EDIT: for 1274 points, you can make a beastly powerful STYGIES detachment. But I only own 4 dragoons! And when I went to buy another one the store didn't have any. This list paired with a smash battalion and some guard arti would be legit terrifying.

TPD + Enginseer
3x8 rangers
2x4 dragoons.
3x1 icarus onagers