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2019/11/10 19:27:48
Subject: Psychic Awakening N&R - New trailer page 106
Rihgu wrote: Why does everybody think "supplement level" means doctrines + enhanced traits? Those are both things added by the codex, not the supplement.
All the supplements add are... stratagems, relics, warlord traits... you know, like what Black Legion got in Vigilus.
Expecting anything more than that based on "supplement level" seems really strange.
Shhhh don’t spoil there fun CSM love to bang on about how hard done to they are.
Your last point is especially laughable and comical, because not only the 7th ed Valkyrie shown dumber things (like being able to throw the troopers without parachutes out of its hatches, no harm done) - Irbis
2019/11/10 20:04:03
Subject: Psychic Awakening N&R - New trailer page 106
Rihgu wrote: Why does everybody think "supplement level" means doctrines + enhanced traits? Those are both things added by the codex, not the supplement.
All the supplements add are... stratagems, relics, warlord traits... you know, like what Black Legion got in Vigilus.
Expecting anything more than that based on "supplement level" seems really strange.
How many stratagems, relics and WL traits do the supplements add again?
Don't they also offer bonuses to the doctrines for each chapter?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/10 20:04:25
2019/11/10 20:06:50
Subject: Re:Psychic Awakening N&R - OP updated with rumoured release schedule
- Cult troops get +1W
- Basic CSM get pt reduction to rival loyalists
- WL traits, relics and strats in the book will be good improvement and capture all legions in the Dex that have since missed love (WE, AL, EC etc)
I really hope this rumor is wrong, as GW presented it as the CSM "supplement equivalent" to the loyalist marines, but if there is no upgraded traits or equivilant to doctrines, then its very much not going to equalize even with this. meaning CSM either remains stuck as inferior until round 3, and only then try again-or wait for yet ANOTHER book.
Not to mention 2W cult marines makes me somewhat sad, as the rubrics gain very little from it compared to other cult marines (being a plasma bait already), and I'm a tzeentcher.
We have known for quite some time that CSM will not get new Traits neither Doctrines and PA is pretty much all about BT.
Move on, already.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/10 20:07:30
2019/11/10 20:07:04
Subject: Psychic Awakening N&R - New trailer page 106
Rihgu wrote: Why does everybody think "supplement level" means doctrines + enhanced traits? Those are both things added by the codex, not the supplement.
All the supplements add are... stratagems, relics, warlord traits... you know, like what Black Legion got in Vigilus.
Expecting anything more than that based on "supplement level" seems really strange.
How many stratagems, relics and WL traits do the supplements add again?
Don't they also offer bonuses to the doctrines for each chapter?
I wouldn't be able to tell you that exactly. They do offer bonuses to the doctrines but that's because doctrines were a thing already provided by the codex itself. There's no doctrine for CSM for a supplement to enhance.
Shhhh don’t spoil there fun CSM love to bang on about how hard done to they are.
I'm a Black Legion player myself. I'm not saying we're not hard done I just don't get why people are expecting anything beyond WL traits, stratagems and relics.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Based on that small little datasheet on the Community article, it doesn't look like Helbrecht is getting any changes. That's a shame.
He get a whooping 1 extra Attack i think up to 5 from 4 if i'm not mistaken.
2019/11/10 20:10:53
Subject: Psychic Awakening N&R - New trailer page 106
Rihgu wrote: Why does everybody think "supplement level" means doctrines + enhanced traits? Those are both things added by the codex, not the supplement.
All the supplements add are... stratagems, relics, warlord traits... you know, like what Black Legion got in Vigilus.
Expecting anything more than that based on "supplement level" seems really strange.
How many stratagems, relics and WL traits do the supplements add again?
Don't they also offer bonuses to the doctrines for each chapter?
I wouldn't be able to tell you that exactly. They do offer bonuses to the doctrines but that's because doctrines were a thing already provided by the codex itself. There's no doctrine for CSM for a supplement to enhance.
Shhhh don’t spoil there fun CSM love to bang on about how hard done to they are.
I'm a Black Legion player myself. I'm not saying we're not hard done I just don't get why people are expecting anything beyond WL traits, stratagems and relics.
GW have said 'supplement level' rules.
The SM supplements contain vastly more than what PA1 had for Eldar and Dark Eldar players. Like way, waaaay more.
2019/11/10 20:15:25
Subject: Re:Psychic Awakening N&R - New trailer page 106
It then presents a host of new rules for the Space Marines – including a codex expansion’s worth of rules for the storied Black Templars Chapter – and loads of awesome new content for the story’s antagonists, the Heretic Astartes.
The french rumour monger (who proved to be extremely reliable) already told us CSM are getting the equivalent of Vigilus for the missing Traitor Legions (no new Traits or equivalent to Doctrines). Only BT will get the full "supplement" ala Iron Hands, Salamanders etc.
And this quote from Warhammer Community nails it.
Can we put an end to these speculations which were born out of some strange interpretations of ONE sentence ?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/11/10 20:17:10
2019/11/10 20:16:07
Subject: Psychic Awakening N&R - New trailer page 106
Rihgu wrote: Why does everybody think "supplement level" means doctrines + enhanced traits? Those are both things added by the codex, not the supplement.
All the supplements add are... stratagems, relics, warlord traits... you know, like what Black Legion got in Vigilus.
Expecting anything more than that based on "supplement level" seems really strange.
How many stratagems, relics and WL traits do the supplements add again?
Don't they also offer bonuses to the doctrines for each chapter?
I wouldn't be able to tell you that exactly. They do offer bonuses to the doctrines but that's because doctrines were a thing already provided by the codex itself. There's no doctrine for CSM for a supplement to enhance.
Shhhh don’t spoil there fun CSM love to bang on about how hard done to they are.
I'm a Black Legion player myself. I'm not saying we're not hard done I just don't get why people are expecting anything beyond WL traits, stratagems and relics.
I play Alpha Legion among others so I understand but CSM complaining reached meme status long ago even when it is warranted it’s hard not to giggle when your remember Dakka having a 200+ thread that the CSM complaining was quarantined too from 5th to 7th edition.
Your last point is especially laughable and comical, because not only the 7th ed Valkyrie shown dumber things (like being able to throw the troopers without parachutes out of its hatches, no harm done) - Irbis
2019/11/10 20:24:56
Subject: Re:Psychic Awakening N&R - OP updated with rumoured release schedule
- Cult troops get +1W
- Basic CSM get pt reduction to rival loyalists
- WL traits, relics and strats in the book will be good improvement and capture all legions in the Dex that have since missed love (WE, AL, EC etc)
I really hope this rumor is wrong, as GW presented it as the CSM "supplement equivalent" to the loyalist marines, but if there is no upgraded traits or equivilant to doctrines, then its very much not going to equalize even with this. meaning CSM either remains stuck as inferior until round 3, and only then try again-or wait for yet ANOTHER book.
Not to mention 2W cult marines makes me somewhat sad, as the rubrics gain very little from it compared to other cult marines (being a plasma bait already), and I'm a tzeentcher.
Didn't Rubrics always used to be 2W marines? Thought they had kept that when they got the new book.
And as always, "supplement equivalent" means like the supplements, what they added compared to the main book - it's just a bit of extra flavour, not a re-balancing to make them equal.
Rubrics have never been 2W, at least not from 5th edition and beyond, no idea about earlier.
And the loyalist supplements have the extra trait when you are monodex, that is based around docrtines. if CSM do not have ANY equivilant, we remain in the scenario where the "regular CSM" are miles below the "regular marine", despite being in all logic supposdly superior. (because when you are tempted with power, getting WEAKER doesn't make much sense.)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/10 20:25:22
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now.
2019/11/10 20:40:06
Subject: Psychic Awakening N&R - New trailer page 106
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Based on that small little datasheet on the Community article, it doesn't look like Helbrecht is getting any changes. That's a shame.
He get a whooping 1 extra Attack i think up to 5 from 4 if i'm not mistaken.
Huh. Well can't everything at a first glance right?
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2019/11/10 21:30:37
Subject: Psychic Awakening N&R - New trailer page 106
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Based on that small little datasheet on the Community article, it doesn't look like Helbrecht is getting any changes. That's a shame.
He get a whooping 1 extra Attack i think up to 5 from 4 if i'm not mistaken.
Huh. Well can't everything at a first glance right?
He also got the new better CM aura and they fixed his +1 strength aura to be conga-lineable.
- Cult troops get +1W
- Basic CSM get pt reduction to rival loyalists
- WL traits, relics and strats in the book will be good improvement and capture all legions in the Dex that have since missed love (WE, AL, EC etc)
I really hope this rumor is wrong, as GW presented it as the CSM "supplement equivalent" to the loyalist marines, but if there is no upgraded traits or equivilant to doctrines, then its very much not going to equalize even with this. meaning CSM either remains stuck as inferior until round 3, and only then try again-or wait for yet ANOTHER book.
Not to mention 2W cult marines makes me somewhat sad, as the rubrics gain very little from it compared to other cult marines (being a plasma bait already), and I'm a tzeentcher.
Didn't Rubrics always used to be 2W marines? Thought they had kept that when they got the new book.
And as always, "supplement equivalent" means like the supplements, what they added compared to the main book - it's just a bit of extra flavour, not a re-balancing to make them equal.
Rubrics have never been 2W, at least not from 5th edition and beyond, no idea about earlier.
And the loyalist supplements have the extra trait when you are monodex, that is based around docrtines. if CSM do not have ANY equivilant, we remain in the scenario where the "regular CSM" are miles below the "regular marine", despite being in all logic supposdly superior. (because when you are tempted with power, getting WEAKER doesn't make much sense.)
It does if the people who tempted you were LYING and you're just an IDIOT who thought trusting something called 'THE CHAOS GODS' was a good idea.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/10 21:32:19
2019/11/10 21:38:04
Subject: Psychic Awakening N&R - New trailer page 106
BoomWolf wrote: (because when you are tempted with power, getting WEAKER doesn't make much sense.)
Yup, because when you make deal with the devil, he always delivers instead of just scooping up the whole pot at the end of the game, all while laughing how naive idiots totally believed all the promises that were never serious to begin with, eh?
2019/11/10 22:12:54
Subject: Re:Psychic Awakening N&R - OP updated with rumoured release schedule
BoomWolf wrote: Rubrics have never been 2W, at least not from 5th edition and beyond, no idea about earlier.
Rubric Marines were 2 wounds in 3rd edition.
I actually thought it fit their background quite well, as they were able to shrug off more small arms fire but higher strength weapons would blast them apart--due to instant death.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/10 22:13:52
2019/11/10 22:16:10
Subject: Psychic Awakening N&R - New trailer page 106
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I expected the Chapter Master part for consistency. However I thought his aura was the same. Was it on model basis rather than unit basis?
It was model by model.
2019/11/10 22:45:30
Subject: Re:Psychic Awakening N&R - New trailer page 106
It then presents a host of new rules for the Space Marines – including a codex expansion’s worth of rules for the storied Black Templars Chapter – and loads of awesome new content for the story’s antagonists, the Heretic Astartes.
The french rumour monger (who proved to be extremely reliable) already told us CSM are getting the equivalent of Vigilus for the missing Traitor Legions (no new Traits or equivalent to Doctrines). Only BT will get the full "supplement" ala Iron Hands, Salamanders etc.
And this quote from Warhammer Community nails it.
Can we put an end to these speculations which were born out of some strange interpretations of ONE sentence ?
Good catch there. I'm still going to wait for the reviews before I'm absolutely convinced, but this is still fairly damning. I really hope that there's a bunch of 2.0 codexes coming out in quick succession soon to make up for their mistakes.
2019/11/11 01:39:33
Subject: Re:Psychic Awakening N&R - New trailer page 106
It then presents a host of new rules for the Space Marines – including a codex expansion’s worth of rules for the storied Black Templars Chapter – and loads of awesome new content for the story’s antagonists, the Heretic Astartes.
The french rumour monger (who proved to be extremely reliable) already told us CSM are getting the equivalent of Vigilus for the missing Traitor Legions (no new Traits or equivalent to Doctrines). Only BT will get the full "supplement" ala Iron Hands, Salamanders etc.
And this quote from Warhammer Community nails it.
Can we put an end to these speculations which were born out of some strange interpretations of ONE sentence ?
Good catch there. I'm still going to wait for the reviews before I'm absolutely convinced, but this is still fairly damning. I really hope that there's a bunch of 2.0 codexes coming out in quick succession soon to make up for their mistakes.
As much as I would like this (as someone playing CSM, Daemons, DG, and Thousand Sons, who are some of the oldest rules designs and mistakes), I am skeptical this will happen. Especially for CSM who recently got screwed on their 1.5 rather than 2.0 codex.
However, it does the raise the question - what is next in 8th edition? Obviously they will keep pumping out Psychic Awakening for easy dollars and extra high-priced kits here and there.
But what about codexes? We are about to get Sisters, we already got Chaos Knights. Inquisition is about to be in White Dwarf. We've got supplements for SM chapters. Legions are getting a half-hearted option with a PA book rather than full codexes or full supplements (at least it saves money!).
Unless they introduce brand new factions, they are now out of armies that still need codexes. Emperor's Children and World Eaters are obvious options, but sadly that seems less likely given that in a few weeks they will have some extra rules in a PA book. So I am not sure what they will do other than more campaign books...seems like 2.0 codexes is the obvious option.
I'm going to take a guess that we'll see eldar and dark eldar 2.0 sometime within the next year. likely with the independant release of the stuff from the boxed set that came out
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/11 01:45:00
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2019/11/11 02:00:14
Subject: Psychic Awakening N&R - New trailer page 106
Nids and BA are also a fair guess given they are next up on PA3, abd and its pretty close. (before the end of the year iirc)
Traitor guard got a small taste in Blackstone fortress, and it might lead to a full release seeing how FW do not seem to make 40k rules anymore. (seriusly, it's all still index, and very poor writing quality even for that)
Gk seems like a natural fit, also DG. They were from the first 8th, and aged extremely poorly.
Well, Gk were poor before they aged...
TS probably not soon, but in dire need of a rework now that practically every marine chapter out-psyker them.
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now.
2019/11/11 02:21:10
Subject: Re:Psychic Awakening N&R - New trailer page 106
how does every marine chapter out psyker them? a vanilla marine player should have access to three disiplines, although one would be limited to a single specialist unit only capable of buffing other specialist units. this is about what 1k sons can do, and 1k sons have more psyker units yes?
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2019/11/11 02:33:54
Subject: Re:Psychic Awakening N&R - OP updated with rumoured release schedule
BoomWolf wrote: (because when you are tempted with power, getting WEAKER doesn't make much sense.)
Yup, because when you make deal with the devil, he always delivers instead of just scooping up the whole pot at the end of the game, all while laughing how naive idiots totally believed all the promises that were never serious to begin with, eh?
If chaos was lying, you'd think marines would wise up to that pretty quickly and realize there's no point. It's pretty obvious that yes, at least in the short term does make you more powerful at the expense of becoming a pawn in the chaos gods schemes.
I don't exactly see loyalist marines ascending to be daemon princes, or summoning armies of daemons to do their bidding, or you know, not aging over 10,000 years. The switcheroo is things like chaos spawn, or the fleshmetal virus, or classic gotchas like "I don't want to die to plague" so nurgle makes you unable to die to them, but you suffer from them for eternity. Or you grow in power but each bit of power you get makes you have even less free will.
The whole point is that it's the old switcheroo, but you gotta have something actually worth having if you want to convince people to sell their soul. You never hear someone selling their soul to be the world's greatest kazoo player after all. If chaos marines were actually weaker than regular marines, the average marine would go "wow those guys are losers, definitely won't make that mistake." and no marines would fall to chaos ever again.
The real dichotomy between loyalist and chaos marine should be that loyalists have better synergy, tactics and teamwork, they're still part of a team and bound by duty, oaths, etc. Chaos marines should be more powerful as individuals, each striving for their own glory and agendas. 1v1 chaos marines should win a fight or battle because individually they're stronger, but lose wars because their leaders are all egotistical jerks focused on their own goals and schemes.
Hopefully, the traits and abilities chaos marines get in the new book reflect that.
As for black Templar, well, I expect them to be good at being mad and punching things. Hopefully crusader squads go up to 2 attacks base to represent them being extra angry but I ain't holding my breath.
'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader
"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell
2019/11/11 03:06:52
Subject: Re:Psychic Awakening N&R - OP updated with rumoured release schedule
BoomWolf wrote: (because when you are tempted with power, getting WEAKER doesn't make much sense.)
Yup, because when you make deal with the devil, he always delivers instead of just scooping up the whole pot at the end of the game, all while laughing how naive idiots totally believed all the promises that were never serious to begin with, eh?
If chaos was lying, you'd think marines would wise up to that pretty quickly and realize there's no point. It's pretty obvious that yes, at least in the short term does make you more powerful at the expense of becoming a pawn in the chaos gods schemes.
I don't exactly see loyalist marines ascending to be daemon princes, or summoning armies of daemons to do their bidding, or you know, not aging over 10,000 years
Imma stop you right there. You don't see the enormous majority of Chaos follows doing any of those things either(except the not aging bit but that's as much up to warp shenanigans as anything else)
Chaos tricks fools and weakling into following it by giving the few competent people that fall just enough power to be something to strive for and entice.
Your average word bearer or iron warrior is a delusional idiot so blinded by the incredibly slight possibility that he may one day get a reward from a chaos god better than a butt tentacle (he won't) that he doesn't realize(or care) that he's just as much cannon fodder as your average cultist.
It's an excellent allegory to american capitalism actually.
The only ones who even might have a reason to be stronger 1v1 against a loyalist counterpart are nurgle followers and that's because nurgle hands out his 'gifts' like horrible rancid candy.
2019/11/11 03:18:26
Subject: Re:Psychic Awakening N&R - OP updated with rumoured release schedule
BoomWolf wrote: (because when you are tempted with power, getting WEAKER doesn't make much sense.)
Yup, because when you make deal with the devil, he always delivers instead of just scooping up the whole pot at the end of the game, all while laughing how naive idiots totally believed all the promises that were never serious to begin with, eh?
If chaos was lying, you'd think marines would wise up to that pretty quickly and realize there's no point. It's pretty obvious that yes, at least in the short term does make you more powerful at the expense of becoming a pawn in the chaos gods schemes.
I don't exactly see loyalist marines ascending to be daemon princes, or summoning armies of daemons to do their bidding, or you know, not aging over 10,000 years
Imma stop you right there. You don't see the enormous majority of Chaos follows doing any of those things either(except the not aging bit but that's as much up to warp shenanigans as anything else)
Chaos tricks fools and weakling into following it by giving the few competent people that fall just enough power to be something to strive for and entice.
Your average word bearer or iron warrior is a delusional idiot so blinded by the incredibly slight possibility that he may one day get a reward from a chaos god better than a butt tentacle (he won't) that he doesn't realize(or care) that he's just as much cannon fodder as your average cultist.
Ha!
Well said - especially the Word Bearer part!
Chaos really feels like it’s more of a disease with a mind then anything else.
It really is a bad deal for 99.9999999999999999% of anyone who signs up.
-
2019/11/11 03:23:21
Subject: Psychic Awakening N&R - New trailer page 106
That's one thing I never got. Why can't Chaos just give a ton of mutations to its followers? Why not ascend a legion into Daemon princes? Sure, a huge chunk will devolve into spawns, but the ones that don't will be uber powerful. I can't imagine it would drain the gods of that much power to do so. Chaos must really not want to win that badly.
2019/11/11 03:52:27
Subject: Re:Psychic Awakening N&R - OP updated with rumoured release schedule
ERJAK wrote: Your average word bearer or iron warrior is a delusional idiot so blinded by the incredibly slight possibility that he may one day get a reward from a chaos god better than a butt tentacle (he won't) that he doesn't realize(or care) that he's just as much cannon fodder as your average cultist.
Whilst you are correct that your average CSM isn't going around summoning legions of Daemons and becoming a Daemon Prince, the idea that they are naught but oblivious cannon fodder and akin to Cultists in their importance couldn't be further from the truth. They are still Space Marines, whatever their allegiances may be. They are not throwaway troops that their commanders send to the slaughter with wild abandon.
They are as much the elite of the elite as they would be if still Loyalist - moreso in a lot of cases, due to centuries and sometimes millennia of fighting (Warp time shenanigans notwithstanding). To compare them to cultists is to completely mischaracterise them.
ERJAK wrote: It's an excellent allegory to american capitalism actually.
That is a tremendous stretch.
GaroRobe wrote: Why can't Chaos just give a ton of mutations to its followers?
Because "Chaos" doesn't work that way. Chaos isn't a single entity or concept. It can no less give a man a tentacle as "The Imperium" can give a man a gun.
And whilst I am loathe to quote someone like ADB, I have to in this instance:
Spoiler:
ADB wrote:What is Chaos?
This question is at the heart of the book you hold in your hands. On the face of it, the answer is quite simple. Chaos is the dark force that exists in the warp. This force is exemplified by the four Dark Gods of Chaos: Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle and Slaanesh. The gods want to crush reality and they offer power to those mortals who serve them. This power most often comes in the form of tentacles, supernatural abilities, and a sudden love of grisly trophies and eight-pointed stars. So far, so familiar, yes? And from a certain angle all of that is manifestly true, but it’s not the whole truth. The truth is far, far worse, and that truth is what I wanted to show in Slaves to Darkness.
Chaos is elemental. The forces of the warp are regarded as gods, their servants as daemons, and their powers as sorcery. That is how mortals who know of the warp talk about Chaos, but that is a rationalisation of something much bigger and more terrifying. The forces of Chaos are not gods, in that they are not like people. They have sentience, a strange nightmare sentience patched together from the emotions of mortal races, but they are closer in nature to a cyclone than they are to a person. They are forces of eternal nature; raw and lethal, and wildly destructive. This is not because they choose to be, or because they enjoy it, any more than a flood chooses to sweep away a town, or a tornado flips over cars for kicks. They do what they do because that is what they are. They can be no other way. These powers oppose and antagonise each other like the poles of magnets. Despair and rot claw at the desire for perfection and endless pleasure, war sweeps away subtle power, and so on.
What does that have to do with the Horus Heresy and this book? It is important because it is the reason that the Traitors aren’t made stronger by falling to Chaos. They are made weaker. They are made slaves who can no longer choose their own path. Chaos pulls them apart, divides them, consumes them and sets Horus’ forces against each other. It does not do this because it is a winning strategy, far from it; it does this because it can’t help it. The great powers in the warp, the four that are called gods, can come together and apply their power to a single end, but this can only be temporary. As soon as they align they begin to split. And because they are elemental forces they do this messily, and with all the care of an earthquake.
But why don’t Horus and his followers simply choose not to be swayed by these forces? Why don’t they just take the good bits – the special powers – but stay focused and united in their goals? Because once Chaos has its claws in them, they have no choice. Once an individual has let Chaos take hold of them, their thoughts and emotions begin to resonate and amplify in harmony with the great powers. Other ways of seeing events wither in their perception. The manifest powers of Chaos become a release that can only be accessed by falling deeper into their embrace. Characters fall to Chaos, but they spiral as they fall. They try to escape, but their every choice now only takes them deeper. There is no way out for Horus and those that follow him, they are slaves and doomed through their own choices to fall apart and on each other with murder and treachery.
Once Chaos has hold of a mortal it enables the emotions that drove it into its arms, and feeds them in turn, so that they grow all-consuming and circular. Resentment becomes rage, becomes violence. Pride becomes arrogance. Knowledge becomes blindness to truth. And even if the soul that has fallen fights their fate, they still fall. To fall to Chaos is not to bow to the Chaos Gods, in fact it does not require that you even know that the Dark Gods exist. To rephrase the words hissed by the daemon Samos in the first Horus Heresy novel, Horus Rising: ‘Chaos all around you… It is the person beside you… It is you…’ The elemental power of the Chaos gods comes from the emotions of all sentient beings. Khorne does not exist because people worship it as a god of blood and war; Khorne exists because sentient creatures feel anger and rage, and want to destroy and kill and see their enemies broken. It does not matter to Tzeentch if a mortal who plots for power or hungers for knowledge does so in its name. The emotion and thought is enough to keep the cyclone turning.
That is what Chaos is, it is every weakness given power and set loose against itself without beginning and without end. That is the path that Horus, Lorgar and the first heretics set themselves on when they embraced Chaos. That is, if you like, the point of this book – to show that Horus and those that led him and followed him into darkness have become slaves to forces that they cannot control, bound by the chains of their own natures.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/11/11 03:56:33
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
