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Thats the problem. Its just a TL autocannon with 36" range.

It should be unique SOMEHOW.
I say either Heavy 3 (thats too heavy-boltery though) or Pinning - lets see - it shoots dast, its rounds explode (i think) it can destroy tanks and... theres 2 of them on one guy. I don't want to get shot by that!

What does dakka think? too OP? If neither of those, at least a points reduction. 25 is more than a dread pays for a Regular TL Autocannon. With full range.

In the current system I think it's fine. Remember that Autocannon's mounted on Tanks or on tripods are meant for extended combat. Terminators (fluff wise) always fulfill a close assault role - by boarding actions and deep striking etc. I think the compromise between range and twin-linked is fine given how Terminators are used in battle - as they can still walk and fire their heavy weapons. So if he walks 6 inches it's not that much different range wise + its twin-linked. If you played against me I might let you reduce the points cost by 5 so you could buy yourself something nice. It seems points values aren't determined alone by the weapons in and of themselves but also by their effectiveness within a unit. So you get a Deep Striking twin-linked Autocannon. I also think a lot of people would disagree about it being JUST a twin-linked autocannon - not even Predators get that luxury.

As a side I wouldn't like to get shot by anything I read in the rules!

I see where you re coming from, BUT:
The reaper autocannon (much like the assault cannon) is fitted to terminator suits, and terminator suits are, as you said, intended for close combat roles. The assault cannon excells at that - laying down close range firepower. But its preceeder, the reaper, was designed for the same role - shooting stuff up while you charge it. I'd think that the people who designed it would have made it shoot extra fast/sound really loud/something else that would make its target throw themselves to the ground. They have basically the same role.

Another small thing I've noticed is that Termies and Deffys are the only things that can take them. This may be Unflyffy, but couldn't Preds also (technically) mount them? Either on Turret or Sponsoons? Or Both?

warspawned wrote:As a side I wouldn't like to get shot by anything I read in the rules!

Touche...

As for the Reaper itself I'll takes us back to the heady days of 2nd Ed. To quote:

"The most successful early weapon was the Reaper autocannon, which was later developed into the fearsome Assault cannon which remains in use to this day. The Traitor Terminators, lacking the technology and equipment to maintain the notoriously fickle assault cannon, still make use of the Reaper with its simpler mechanism and solid ammunition." In those days the Reaper was less capable of the same amount of firepower but more reliable. Chaos Terminators can be given Icons which can make them better in combat, tougher and more invulnerable (who really cares for the lousy 1 Initiative?) than 'normal' Terminators so I guess that's another compensation...

The trade off appears to be in its name sake. For its solid ammunition you get an extra strength, 2 less shots and no rending - but its twin-linked. IMHO twin-linked is where a lot of actual physical firepower (i.e the rolling of large numbers of dice) is taken away but substituted with the ability to re-roll misses. It's swings and round abouts to me. I'd personally like to roll twice as many dice and statistically hit with half - just to give me the feeling of DAKKA!. They seemed to have toned down many heavy weapons over the years - as far as their output is concerned. Now they are always reliable but less shooty.

As for mounting them of Predators I don't know. It is 'unfluffy' but I wouldn't have any qualms about a player using them as sponons, or even as a defensive weapon on a Land Raider, if they took the time to produce the goods. I wouldn't expect to see it officially any time soon/ever.

An Assault Cannon can only put out 4 shots now. I believe in 3rd Ed. it used to be 6 and had the Gets Hot! rule. In second Ed. it could potentially unleash 9 if it didn't blow up and kill you. Next Edition who knows? It may be reduced to 2...

I'm not complaining about "Oh Reaper Autocannons Suck! I want Assault Cannons!" Trust me - I run Reaper Autocannons whenever I can (I've got an autocannon in my pants for the Reaper) But i just think it's lacking a tiny bit. Especially considering how you need to have a slaanesh army (or part slaanesh) to get any pinning weapons in the CSM Codex.

Agreed. I just don't know it should have an extra ability within the rules as they stand. Why should it necessarily cause pinning more than a Heavy Bolter or normal Auto-Cannon? I think the Codex itself is the problem. Not the Reaper. If you could have Terminators with the Mark (not those silly Icons) of Slaanesh then they could take Noise Marine weapons - naturally you'd pay for them, but I think the Reaper's fine as is.

(I've got an autocannon in my pants for the Reaper)

lol btw.

In 3rd edition the Assault Cannon was Heavy 3 Jamming (all 1 results meant the weapon was no longer useable). Then it got upgraded to Heavy 4 Rending, which is a good three steps up (increased number of shots, addition of Rending, loss of Jamming).

The Reaper already has a valuable roll: Any Terminator unit that Deep Strikes is going to lack an ability to handle targets beyond 24" and light vehicles. Thus it gives them some ability to support themselves against harrassing light vehicles like Land Speeders and the like.

In 3rd edition the Assault Cannon was Heavy 3 Jamming (all 1 results meant the weapon was no longer useable).

No wonder I didn't play 3rd Ed much...that's lame...

Drop it to 24" and up it to 4 shots.

Edit: Oh wait, that's an asscannon... lulz

I think the weapon is okay.. but considering its price (nearly as much as an assault cannon) I think it should be upped to 3 shots.

AND!

Chaos chosen should be able to include one of these for 25pts

Chaos Havocs should be able to include one of these as well instead of just a normal auto cannon. for 25pts and up to 4 normal auto cannons for 20pts each

Chaos terminators should be able to take up to 4 of them at 20 pts per. (dakka termies ftw)

as for an off topic rule: Chaos havocs and Chaos terminators should be able to split their fire, but must fire all weapons at the same time (this means you cant use one gun to pop the tank then shoot its now disembarked troops with the rest, all targets must be chosen before shooting) This would make taking a shooty chaos army actually worth it.

ALSO

Its funny how chaos dreads can take a twin-linked auto cannons instead of a reaper auto cannon.

Chaos Havocs can't use it because it's so bulky that it can only be included on Terminator armor, it's basically a Pre-Heresy AssaultCannon.

I think Chaos Terminators should be able to take 2 of them per 5 models.

and I don't think they should be able to split their fire. That's trying to make them Space Wolves and I don't think Chaos Havocs would have the foresight to split their fire. They simply aim at something and start shooting.

I see your reason to not splitting fire, but the way it is there is simply no reason to take multiple weapon havocs if they can't split their fire.

same goes for termies.

Look at it this way:
A long fang squad (which is able to take 5 weapons) has 2 lascannons, 2 heavy bolters, and a missile launcher. This single squad can now potentially kill 1-2tanks (more if your lucky), AND some troops on the same shooting phase!

5 havocs can only take 4 weapons, and these weapons are expensive. Being unable to split fire, it would be incredibly stupid for a unit to take different weapons. its either 4 las, 4 missiles, 4 heavy bolters, or 4 auto cannons.
at most this unit can kill is ONE vehicle, or fire at some troops (which would be dumb unless you want to fry 4 termies with 4 lucky laz cannon shots)

AND to top it off. Long fangs squads can deal alot more damage, for the same price, if not cheaper!

In my Opinion devastators/havocs should also be able to split their fire. It would add dozens of strategic choices to a chaos/loyalist army and not just limited to space puppy lovers

Devastators can already split their fire using Combat Squads and use the same rule to split incoming fire between two units.

Nurglitch wrote:Devastators can already split their fire using Combat Squads and use the same rule to split incoming fire between two units.

Yeah, but their squads cost about 1.5x more due to weapons and Combat Squads is less effective and you need to pay more points to get 10 models.

Or 6 models if you like a nice and squishy platform for your weapons

You get what you pay for, I suppose.

Not really, if you can pay less in Space Wolves and even in the Blood Angels codex, then you really aren't.

That's my point: You pay more for Space Marine Devastators than either Long Fangs or Blood Angels Devastators, and you pay a premium because they lack the shortcomings of either specialization. They're more resilient, mobile, and flexible than Long Fangs - they can absorb more unsaved wounds with less loss of firepower, they have Combat Squads, Combat Tactics, and don't lose their Bolt Pistols. They have Combat Tactics while Blood Angels have the Red Thirst, which makes them much less mobile and consequently worth less points.

In my experience, they're the least flexible...

I never deploy them as combat squads, as I've found that never works. Bolt pistols don't matter, because they sit back and shoot. As I stated before, Combat Squads isn't that great, so Blood Angels are actually instead better, because they weapons are quite a bit cheaper, and they have the chance to be Fearless, meaning that no matter how much you shoot, they're going to stay.

In the end, Space Wolves are imba.

How could one argue with such insight...

Its the ability to split fire to where ever you want. a 5 man squad of decked out long fangs costs roughly the same of a normal devastator/havoc squad (havocs have it the worst since they don't have ANY special rules like BA and Loyalists).

Thus you get a similarly priced unit that can kill more then twice as many targets in the same turn. and you call that fair?

Yeah, I call that fair because they're much much easier to kill in turn.

Also, one might suppose that the ability of Havoc squads to take special weapons as well as Heavy Weapons are special rules. That and the Icons. Oh, and the Autocannon. But that's it. Unless you count Enhanced Warriors from Fabius Bile, but that's disputable.

bucketwalrus wrote:Its the ability to split fire to where ever you want. a 5 man squad of decked out long fangs costs roughly the same of a normal devastator/havoc squad (havocs have it the worst since they don't have ANY special rules like BA and Loyalists).

Thus you get a similarly priced unit that can kill more then twice as many targets in the same turn. and you call that fair?

Chaos has the "bonus" of one better Ld. Not a direct compare but you are dealing with pre-heresy and it's limits. OTOH, you can field SW and they have no option for that.

Also for termies - you can field 3-man squads and have combi-weapons but you don't have AssCans or Cyclones.

Nurglitch wrote:Yeah, I call that fair because they're much much easier to kill in turn.

Also, one might suppose that the ability of Havoc squads to take special weapons as well as Heavy Weapons are special rules. That and the Icons. Oh, and the Autocannon. But that's it. Unless you count Enhanced Warriors from Fabius Bile, but that's disputable.

How many times in a game do you actually get close to the Space Wolves Long Fangs if they play them properly? Half the time they're in heavy cover behind the whole army, the other half of the time they're part a massive Razorback line. The fact that you can limit the squad to being small and still having them be strong (rigged...) means that you can simply put out tons and tons of razorbacks. Most of the competitive armies of them I see, are fielding at least 6 Razorbacks with Plas/Las, and with three of them having the tooled out Long Fangs squads, you simply can't compete.

You can always get close enough to Long Fangs to attack them. If they can see you, you can see them. If they're in a Rhino, then they can be suppressed by Stunning or Shaking the Rhino. You can land Drop Pods or Terminators near them, Bikes can turbo-boost towards them, Mawlocs can come up under them and swallow them whole. If they take a wound they either lose a Heavy Weapon or the ability to split fire, and they don't have Combat Tactics to get them out of trouble if they get caught by outflanking units or plain old fast assault units.

Take the splitting fire issue. They need their Leader model alive, and you have to shoot at two targets at once. A pair of Devastator Combat Squads can shoot at one target, and then decide to shoot at it again or to switch to a new target.

You can always get close enough to Long Fangs to attack them. If they can see you, you can see them. If they're in a Rhino, then they can be suppressed by Stunning or Shaking the Rhino. You can land Drop Pods or Terminators near them, Bikes can turbo-boost towards them, Mawlocs can come up under them and swallow them whole. If they take a wound they either lose a Heavy Weapon or the ability to split fire, and they don't have Combat Tactics to get them out of trouble if they get caught by outflanking units or plain old fast assault units.

Do you use droppods? Do you use Terminators that deepstrike? Do you have enough bikes to get close enough to turbo boost? Are you willing to spend points on a Mawloc that is underpowered and will do very little? There's seriously no way to effectively hit them...

Droppods mean the units cannont assault.
Deepstriking means you may miss.
LongFangs being in cover means you'll probably fail...

Terminators deepstriking means they may not come in til late game.
They may have a mishap.
The enemy will probably be in cover and the terminators will be swept away the phase after.

Bikes are expensive...

That aside, no matter how you put it, Vanilla Devastator squads are still weaker... In all my experience, combat-squading makes the unit weaker, wastes points as you have to pay for more units to give them survivability, and they have much more expensive weapons with no advantages compared to the others.

Well Autocannons USED to be Str 8...for some odd reason they were made Str 7.

So a Reaper Autocannon could be Str8 Ap4 Heavy 2 Twin-Linked

SM - Assault Cannon 24" 4shot rending costs 30 pts
Cyclone 2 shot 30pts
CSM - Reaper 36" 2shot tl cost 25.

The simplest is to toss TL and make it be 3 or 4 shot. It is pretty powerful as is but the ROF increase would keep it in the 25 pt range. Better strength and range than the "newer" Assault Cannon but no rending tells you why loyalists retired the autocannons. Cyclone's better range and strength would tell you again why the autocannon was retired.

So the simple "fix" would be lose the TL just give it the ROF of 3 or 4. Less accurate but more damage potential.

warspawned wrote:

In 3rd edition the Assault Cannon was Heavy 3 Jamming (all 1 results meant the weapon was no longer useable).

No wonder I didn't play 3rd Ed much...that's lame...

however all 6s gave you another shot

No, that was 1st edition. Third edition was straight shots per dice, and 2nd had the sustained fire dice.

Nurglitch wrote:No, that was 1st edition. Third edition was straight shots per dice, and 2nd had the sustained fire dice.

That being said, I'm curious to know what the full stats for the Rogue Trader assault cannon were, same with the Storm Bolter. Though I imagine both the Storm Bolter and the Assault Cannon had following fire I don't know much else.

I could see the Storm Bolter as just Bolter stats with following fire, but as for the assault cannon I have no clue. So Nurglitch or anyone else, if you know the stats please post them. Or PM me.