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Ive been branching out from 40k a bit lately and ive noticed alot of systems allow pre measuring, I was wondering why is pre measuring not allowed?

Seems to me it would make a big difference to newer players and I was wondering if a house rule allowing it would affect the game in a negative way?

Personally It dosent really effect me as I seem to have the "knack" for guessing ranges but my in my last game I won simply because my opponent simply didnt allow his troop choices enuff time to walk onto the objectives if he had been able to pre measure he would have known to start running the a turn earlier.

Seems to be a relic from the Guess Range rules that affect most ordance weapons, players had to guess how many inches and then place the template that far.

Not allowing premeasuring is not that uncommon in minature games. Its just another skill that you need to develope, or if you lack this skill you have to take other actions to negate its effects.

From a rules standpoint, you may not pre-measure because there are rules and wargear that allow you to pre-measure. Allowing pre-measuring without these items would not only put people who paid for them at a disadvantage, but would also change the game significantly. It's not a throwback, it's a good rule that more tabletop games should utilize.

From a fluff standpoint, simply because your troops do not have your godlike knowledge of the battlefield. They can't simply look over yonder hill and tell instantly that the enemy is two hundred yards away, etc. Trained soldiers will be able to approximate distances like this, but that's why you're allowed to "eye" the battlefield and use reference points without ever actually using a measuring tape. Only the soldiers with the proper wargear (targeters and the like) will be able to tell exactly how far away a given point is, and therefore may pre-measure.

I disagree that its a "good rulee" - while seeing the world in 6" increments is certainly a skill, i dont think it is one that is necessary for a good war game.

WHFB has finally gotten rid of it, so no doubt 6th ed will as well.

Additionally - I can only think of Targetters that allowed a premeasure?

nosferatu1001 wrote:I disagree that its a "good rulee" - while seeing the world in 6" increments is certainly a skill, i dont think it is one that is necessary for a good war game.

WHFB has finally gotten rid of it, so no doubt 6th ed will as well.

Additionally - I can only think of Targetters that allowed a premeasure?

Agree to disagree on the first point. I take pride in my ability to approximate distances without a measuring implement.

Also, Flash Gitz have Gitfindas, which allow them to pre-measure.

I do like the no pre-measuring rule. Although, I have been screwed by it or screwed over my opponent quite a few times. It speeds up the game quite a bit, because you don't end up with situations where everyone needs to make sure they're exactly 13" away with every model so that the opponent can't assault them (or 19" if against fleet or other faster troops).

That being said, if you are brand new to the game, it is nice to add a house rule occasionally that allows pre-measuring. This lets you experience some of the higher-level tactical decisions going on without most of the game relying on how good you are at guessing distances. Just don't do it so often you become dependent on it.

Because Pre-measuring turns the game into a bore.

If I wanted to play maths, I would play Chess.

The human Error element adds another level of skill to 40k that is vital for it to be enjoyable.

Human Error + Random Dice Chance = Unforeseen Consequences

Catyrpelius wrote:Its just another skill that you need to develope, or if you lack this skill

Yeah... this isn't really a skill, considering that biological differences can provide an advantage between two intellectually equivalent opponents.

This is not a game of physical prowess, but one of MENTAL prowess. While I have perfect eyesight, I don't think it's fair to begrudge someone else for not having it.

I hope no pre-measuring goes the way of the dodo and they adopt the WFB "you may always pre-measure" rule.

Catyrpelius wrote:Not allowing premeasuring is not that uncommon in minature games. Its just another skill that you need to develope, or if you lack this skill you have to take other actions to negate its effects.

Epic plays marvelously with premeasuring.

And in FB the charge range and all other range are more random and every unit moves differently. You can still "cheat" and leave unit so that the opponent cant reach you or something, but i honestly think you should stop playing with such guys. I miss guess blasts tho for fb.

Gwar! wrote:Because Pre-measuring turns the game into a bore.

If I wanted to play maths, I would play Chess.

The human Error element adds another level of skill to 40k that is vital for it to be enjoyable.

QFT. You can already use simple math to calculate distances I.E.:

We deployed 36" apart, he moved 6" forward & ran 2" forward again. I moved 5" diagonally so I can safely assume that we are now (36-8-3) or about 25" away, the 3 was aproximated from the diagonal movement. Now I make a decision whether I think I am just inside or just outside my weapons firing range & that is where tactics come in hand. Is it better to try to shoot them or seek a target I know I can hit?

Dorian has it spot on; that's what you're supposed to be doing the whole time.

M.

"After all, our warriors are all led by experienced campaigners and we can assume that they can accurately judge the range of their weapons"

Yet 40,000 years later with all that hardware, they need range finders.

/boggle

Catyrpelius wrote:Not allowing premeasuring is not that uncommon in minature games. Its just another skill that you need to develope, or if you lack this skill you have to take other actions to negate its effects.

It is fairly uncommon, in my experience.

I have played a lot of different games. Most of them don't mention it either way, but since you have to measure so many things it is just accepted that you can measure range before you decide to shoot. To be fair, in a lot of games there is often only one target you can shoot anyway.

As far as I can remember, DBA specifically says you can measure any distance at any time.

I think it is in 40K because of the old Guess Range weapons and the general toy soldier atmosphere -- I mean, the game isn't trying to be a simulation so the guessing aspect adds to the fun.

kirsanth wrote:"After all, our warriors are all led by experienced campaigners and we can assume that they can accurately judge the range of their weapons"

Yet 40,000 years later with all that hardware, they need range finders.

/boggle

Well, judging how far an enemy unit is requires thinking. And, thinking can lead to having your own thoughts... Once you're thinking for yourself, you can think impure thoughts. And that, is HERESY!!!! Burn the witch!!!!

Grakmar wrote:Well, judging how far an enemy unit is requires thinking. And, thinking can lead to having your own thoughts... Once you're thinking for yourself, you can think impure thoughts. And that, is HERESY!!!! Burn the witch!!!!

That explains the scope on Sororitas flamers. . .where did that link go?

I miss playing my fantasy empire army from... what was that, 5th or 6th edition? Just tearing people apart with my cannons was so much fun. Now that took actual skills.

Not premeasuring was fine once upon a time.

Now that I am recovering from a serious head injury, I have zero ability to estimate the distances and I can't math it out either (I need to color code my dice to help me count them out these days.) The ability to premeasure would certainly level the playing playing field for me, in any case.

I see one main reason for and one main reason against premeasuring:

For: Makes the game more about decisions. You know before you commit what this or thats range is, so its more about making the correct decision and hoping your dice hold out.

Against: Rules would have to change to replace the risk of misjudging a distance. AKA, charge distance and perhaps even shooting distance would have to have a random component, such as 2d6+1 pick the highest for charge distance, 1 less d6 for going through cover. Without this random component the current game balance would shift slightly but in a very exploitable way.

As an aside, does anyone know if premeasuring has directly led to players moving their units more accurately? In 40k, I have seen good players who would never cheat move an extra 3 inches total by the end of turn 2 by being a little off in deployment, a little off with their vehicles first move straight ahead 12, and a little more off on the second move 12 forward. The evidence is easy to see, as the vehicle in question was only 9 inches away from the opposite board edge by turn 2's end, but the player in question could not pinpoint where exactly they went wrong.

Well they took it out for WHFB and I think it turned out just fine. I haven't seen any threads about how WHFB has turned into a mechanical bore, and the Fantasy players in my area keep going on about as a whole the game is more tactical and balanced than ever before (though the PS+Lvl 6 spell debate is carrying on quite energetically).

The key thing here is while they took out pre-measuring, they added other mechanics to stop it from tuning into a mathematical exercise, random charge distance being one. Great you measured everything to within 0.1, you still have to play the odds to get off your dual flank trap.

It's really just for speed of play. In WHFB you've got blocks of troops, not many of them will have ranged weapons, and they all stand in rank and file. Measuring is quick and easy.

In 40K you've got whole armies with ranged weapons, and they're deployed in loose formations, so that often you'd have to measure half or more of the models to know which are and which aren't in range. If someone wanted to be really certain about his ranges, you could see him spending ten minutes or more measuring ranges each turn.

sebster wrote:
In 40K you've got whole armies with ranged weapons, and they're deployed in loose formations, so that often you'd have to measure half or more of the models to know which are and which aren't in range. If someone wanted to be really certain about his ranges, you could see him spending ten minutes or more measuring ranges each turn.

This, plus the human error aspect makes it a lot more fun. Pre-measuring would "dumb down" the game for me. And, although I don't collect fantasy, most fantasy players that I know at our FLGS were quite upset at the introduction of premeasuring.

In WHFB guess-range is out, because random charge range is in. If 40k removes flat movement distance, then i'm all for removing the no pre-measuring.

kirsanth wrote:That explains the scope on Sororitas flamers. . .where did that link go?

Here you go.

I had been talking about how terrible guess range arty is for a game mechanic for many a year. They removed it from 40k, then from BFG, and now from WFB. However, the last to eliminate guess range then went to premeasuring, skiping the middle step all together. Thus I think the implimentation in fantasy is less than perfect--take cannons for example. You can simply say '7 inches in front of your base', then roll a dice for distance and bounce. The models ballistic skill has no bearing. In 40k, they used BS to reduce the scatter at least. Fantasy could have easily adopted such a system, but missed the boat.

As for how 40k would play with random charge distance, we actually have a really good set of play experience already thanks to difficult terrain rolls. Anyone familiar with rolling 2 inches to charge an enemy 3 inches away in 40k gets the gist of how random charge distances would play out.

DevianID wrote:I had been talking about how terrible guess range arty is for a game mechanic for many a year. They removed it from 40k, then from BFG, and now from WFB.

Wait... They removed guess weapons in 40k? How have I missed this? And, more importantly, how do my guess range weapons work now?

Grakmar wrote:

DevianID wrote:I had been talking about how terrible guess range arty is for a game mechanic for many a year. They removed it from 40k, then from BFG, and now from WFB.

Wait... They removed guess weapons in 40k? How have I missed this? And, more importantly, how do my guess range weapons work now?

...very clearly stated in the rulebook, under the entry for Barrage Weapons.

Good question, considering they've been gone for the better part of a decade.