Empire BSB and magic shields

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**Malleus**

Empire book, p. 75: BSB's "may not take any non-magical equipment except for Light, heavy, or full plate armor and/or barding for his steed. He may use a magic standard (no points limit), but if he does, he may not use any other magic item."

And, BRB p 502: "A magical shield is treated as a normal shield..."

On the basis of these rulesets, my entry for a tournament in November was rejected on the basis that my empire BSB is forbidden by rule by carrying a charmed shield. I think this is a radical misreading of the rule, since it universalizes what the prohibition on "non-magical" items specifically restricts. What do y'all think?

**ShivanAngel**

No its not, a magical shield is treated as a normal shield in regards to armor save and what not.

Your army book SPECIFICALLY says that you may not take any magical armor. Charmed shied is listed under the magical armor section of the BRB.

Good call by the TO's.

**Malleus**

Shivan, my BSB does not have a magic standard.

**HoverBoy**

Did he have a magic banner if he didn't he should be allowed to have the magic shield, if thats the case we clearly have a wrong judge situation, sadly judges don't have time to memorise all the rules flawlessly they're only human after all.

**ShivanAngel**

ohhhh i understand what your getting at now, misread it the first time.

Yeah thats kind of dumb then, Cause the "is treated as a normal shield" is just talking about using the normal shield rules for armor saves and what not.

**Malleus**

Ok, thanks, was just making sure I wasn't crazy.

[rant] Wtf? Really? I know judges aren't perfect; they're wrong here, but this isn't even their fault. I'm a first year law student and I can write a better book in a week than GW managed to come up with over a period of years. And then, of course, everybody else's BSB (that's right, vampire counts and dark elves, I'm talking to you) can take a great weapon, or a shield, or carry around the body of a dead hooker, or whatever else they want to... THEY don't need to use two hands. Why would any army with a merely human statline get anything, any slight little compensation, for the roid-raged chaos warriors or the ws5 dark elves or the ld10 skavenslaves at 2 freaking points per, but they have the exact same stats. FFS GW, can I catch a break? [/rant]

**Jin**

Can't argue the point with the tourney judges? They're clearly wrong.

**Malleus**

@Jin- Email exchange so far has gone like this: they sent my list back with their correction on it. I sent a reply with the quote from the empire book, as above. TO after a delay of about 7 or 8 hours (overnight) responds with an email containing the BRB quote as above, and stating that "our conclusion" is that since he can't take a mundane shield, he also cannot take a magical one.

I'm hesitant to do a ton of arguing, because it's difficult to organize a tournament (this is the Northstar GT, not some rinkydink back-alley job) and I respect that, and more practically because it's possible I'll just piss him off. I think my approach will be to send my arguments back in an email with two lists: one with the build I want, the other with the build he's sticking me with by his wrong rule call. I'll respectfully request that he assess what I've got to say and then notify me which list I'll be using, at which point I'll consider the matter closed.

I just figured I'd hop on here and found out if I had lost my mind first -.-

**streamdragon**

I think the issue is that your BSB for some reason is not allowed to take a normal shield. He is only allowed to have:

Light, heavy, or full plate armor and/or barding for his steed

Because you are not allowed to have a normal shield, you are unable to purchase a magic shield either, as you have to be able to purchase the normal version of armor, unless otherwise stated. (Such as Warpstone Armor which specifically states Warlock Engineers can take it, despite having no normal armor options.)

Automatically Appended Next Post:
... which I see is what you just wrote in your post above mine >_<

**HoverBoy**

Well the "magic interference" rule only applyes to wizzards so the BSB isn't bound by it. And that is the only rule that restricts taking magic armours of any sort, otherwise noone can ever have a helm or any other armor item that isn't a shield or a light/heavy armor.

**Malleus**

Hmm. Thanks stream. Counterpoint: The rule in the BRB is basically phrased to indicate that if you can't take mundane armor, you can't take magic armor. The context of the quote deals with wizards, who generally (unless you're a vampire or a chaos warrior) don't have the option for armor. However, this also applies with slight modifications to dwarf slayers.

HOWEVER, nothing in the book indicates in any meaningful way that there's a narrower category of item called "magic shields." Characters may either take magic armor, or they may not.

Chain of logic: A BSB may take mundane armor > he may take magic armor > he may take a charmed shield, which is magic armor. The book doesn't get any more categorically specific than this.

Your interpretation is the exact same as the TO's in this case, but I still believe it to be incorrect. But thanks for jumping in, it's always good to get the counterpoint.

**streamdragon**

Hm, it is a fair point that he's not a wizard and thus Magic Interference wouldn't apply. I was under the impression that was a general rule, not specific to wizards. In that case, I have to side with the others in this thread. The BSB isn't denied magic armor and thus should be able to take the Shield.

It does raise an interesting point for warlock engineers and assassins though. Engineers can be wizards if you pay for it, but are not by default. Assassins are not casters at all. Neither one has options for mundane armor. Being able to get a 2+ armor save for my assassin (who already has a 4+ ward save) would be very, very nice...

**HoverBoy**

I thought assasins had an army specific rule that stopped them getting such items.

Edit: Seems only DE assasins have that, so armor away ya sneaky rat

**streamdragon**

"May choose items from the Magic Items (including Clan Eshin Tools of War items) and Scavenge-pile items up to a total value of 50 points."

Now the question is: Silvered Steel for a 2+ armor save, or the Glittering Scales (20 points less) for Light armor and a -1 to enemies To-Hit rolls...

**nosferatu1001**

Armour save, survival is good with most units being still able to hit you back now...

**blak43**

In regards to the use of magical shiields I agree that you need to be able to take a mundane shield in order to take a magical shield and maybe it's differet in the BRB as apposed to the LRB (pocket sized IOB book) but it never actually specifies that any of the magical shields ARE shields aside from in the name, and if you look in any of the posts on this sight about magical shields and parry save they say that you wouldn't get it because the item doesn't specifically call itsself a shield, so it should be allowable even when the model doesn't say it can use a shield it should still be able to use these, and if they argue against taht at your FLGS then put the shield on another character and claim the parry save since it is apparently counted as a shield

**nosferatu1001**

Huh? The rules for the magic items start "shield" or similar.

The enchanted shield was poorly worded in the last book, but it was much better worded now. You also DO get parry as long as you have a handweapon

**skyth**

No. If you have a magical shield, you cannot get the parry bonus.

**nosferatu1001**

Page 88 disagrees with you. All it requires is hw+shield, magic shields that have the key word "shield" or state they ARE a shielf fulfill this requirement.

**Aerethan**

nosferatu1001 wrote:Page 88 disagrees with you. All it requires is hw+shield, magic shields that have the key word "shield" or state they ARE a shielf fulfill this requirement.

So then are the magic bonuses from magic shields STILL passed on even if the shield is slung over the back while using a great weapon? Do you get stuff like ignoring first wound? If so then the Enchanted shield would still give 5+ while using a great weapon

**Bat Manuel**

nosferatu1001 wrote:Page 88 disagrees with you. All it requires is hw+shield, magic shields that have the key word "shield" or state they ARE a shielf fulfill this requirement.

Page 174 disagrees with you

**nosferatu1001**

Gah, the parry save rule was quite clear....sigh.

Enchanted shield is a shielfd, you have to be using it to get the save as per rules for shields. However anything which says "bearer" would work even if not actually "using" it.

**skyth**

I was annoyed when I found the 'no parry for magic shields' rule :(

**Aerethan**

nosferatu1001 wrote:Gah, the parry save rule was quite clear....sigh.

Enchanted shield is a shielfd, you have to be using it to get the save as per rules for shields. However anything which says "bearer" would work even if not actually "using" it.

"The Bearer counts his armour save as being two points higher than normal..." page 174

If that doesn't work with a great weapon then neither does the charmed shield.

**nosferatu1001**

Quote the whole rule, as it makes it clearer:

"shield....., rather than the usual one point that a shield would normally grant"

So a) it is a shield, and must be wielded to gain an armour bonus, and b) it tells you SPECIFICALLY that this is instead of the normal +1 to armour save.

**Malleus**

On the topic of this original post, I contacted the TO's and got the issue resolved. The magic shield will now be allowed, since in the view of the TO it's "a gray area." Well, fair enough. So now I've got a 1+ armor save on my BSB, which just means he's going to get killing blowed all day.

Cheers, thanks for your input everyone.