Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Eh, go with the ROKS-2, the tank's designed to look like a backpack rather than an obvious target.

Something I've wanted for a while is a 10mm carbine. Now that Hi Point is making one maybe I can justify the price. I know they are ugly and heavy, but also cheap, reliable, and built like a tank. If I can snag one for under $350 (and a bullpup kit) I might go for it.

I've never understood pistol caliber carbines: all the concealability of a rifle paired with all the stopping power of a pistol. The concept seems like all negatives and no positives to me.

Cheap ammo?

Anvildude wrote:
Cheap ammo?

1.) Is it, though? 10mm is like 30-35 cents per round, and .223/5.56 is like 20 cents per round - more or less what 9mm costs.

2.) Why not pay for that same 10mm ammo and have a gun you can conceal under a shirt? 10mm is designed for a pistol length barrel, so giving it substantially more barrel doesn't make it into an amazing round. Out of a 6 inch barrel you're at 650fps, and once you hit 16 inches, you've only gone up to 750fps.

 Ouze wrote:
I've never understood pistol caliber carbines: all the concealability of a rifle paired with all the stopping power of a pistol. The concept seems like all negatives and no positives to me.

Until the last few years or so, they were dramatically cheaper to buy and feed than a rifle, they could use the same ammo and magazines as the handgun but dramatically extend the effective range, and in a lot of cases the extra kinetic energy wasnt relevant for every intended use. There are still applications there, especially if youre not intending on engaging combatant human targets.

SBR's also used to be much less popular, 300 blackout is very new and expensive to shoot, .223 out of a short barrel can have blast/flash issuds, PCC's still tend to be lighter than rifle equivalents (usually by about a pound/pound and a half) in most cases, and can be made in smaller form factors more effectively.

Theres also lots of ranges, particularly indoor, that wont let you shoot anything above pistol cartridges.

Im building a 300 blackout SBR now as a to fill that "subgun" practical niche, but I have lots of fun with .357 levergats, and my 9mm CX4 & Scorpion Evo, theyre awesome.

I all ready have a couple pistol caliber carbines, and yes, there are advantages.

They can be smaller than a standard rifle. Instead of the mag well in front of the trigger, it's in the grip. That shortens the thing by 5 inches right there. My Mechtech Glock is only 23 inches long with the stock collapsed.

The magazines are also shorter (front to back) and easier to fit in a vest pocket.

You can share a magazine with a pistol.

The round has a shorter range when that is an issue. They don't have as much of an issue with over-penetration.

 cuda1179 wrote:
They can be smaller than a standard rifle. Instead of the mag well in front of the trigger, it's in the grip. That shortens the thing by 5 inches right there. My Mechtech Glock is only 23 inches long with the stock collapsed.

My AR pistol is 24" long with a brace. For that extra inch I get ammo moving at 2600fps instead of 700.

Some of the other stuff you mention - the mags being smaller - is countered out by them being harder to load (and of course, the Glock mags are smaller because they hold half as many rounds). Some of it isn't an advantage at all - sharing a magazine with a pistol is more of a novelty than a useful feature. And so far the ammo not overpenetrating, that seems irrelevant; since of course that's exactly the same for the 10mm carbine as a 10mm pistol, but the pistol weighs a third as much and can be concealed.

 Vaktathi wrote:

223 out of a short barrel can have blast/flash issues

Theres also lots of ranges, particularly indoor, that wont let you shoot anything above pistol cartridges.

I trimmed your post a bit; these are fair issues. 300BLK really is ideal for this size but it is like 75 cents a round best case.

I can see the appeal of some of the really small ones, like the EVO, but I gotta say that I definitely feel like now that short barreled ARs are a thing, some of these big ass carbines shooting pistol ammo seem like an odd choice.

One of my friends just got one of these, and it's kind of an interesting gun if we're talking about these PCCs.

 Ouze wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
They can be smaller than a standard rifle. Instead of the mag well in front of the trigger, it's in the grip. That shortens the thing by 5 inches right there. My Mechtech Glock is only 23 inches long with the stock collapsed.

My AR pistol is 24" long with a brace. For that extra inch I get ammo moving at 2600fps instead of 700.

I thought the argument was why someone would want a PCC over a rifle. I mean, yeah a pistol AR has it's place, but it's not the rifle we were comparing it to.

And by the way, a 10mm (180 grain bullet) a 16 inch barrel is more like 1400fps, with 780 ft-lbs of energy compared to your AR pistol's 826 ft-lbs. Yeah, slightly less energy, but a larger wound cavity.

I'll look into this more later. I think I may have been mistaken.

I'm also going to call out your estimate on "2600fps". If your AR is that short, I'm guessing you have an 11.5 inch barrel on that. Most AR ammo is going to drop between 2300 and 2500fps for a barrel that short (for a 55 grain bullet) and drop your energy down to about 760 ft-lbs on the high end, and possibly as low as 650.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ouze wrote:
I'll look into this more later. I think I may have been mistaken.

Looks like my estimations fall pretty much right into the middle of the chart you provided. At 16 inches of barrel the muzzle energy of those in your chart range from 600 to 980. I said 780.

There really isn't any doubt that a longer barrel will make the same round more powerful.

Thompsons and 1911s both shoot the same ammo. The Thompson is much more powerful with each individual round because of the longer barrel. Even though its 'just' a pistol round.

I was wrong on the 10MM FPS numbers above; I misread a chart. 10MM is more like 1400fps out of a pistol, not 700. My mistake.

 cuda1179 wrote:
I'm also going to call out your estimate on "2600fps". If your AR is that short, I'm guessing you have an 11.5 inch barrel on that.

I wasn't wrong on that, though. You can hit 2700fps with a 10" barrel and get an OAL of 24" using 45gr ammo.

 Grey Templar wrote:
There really isn't any doubt that a longer barrel will make the same round more powerful.

Thompsons and 1911s both shoot the same ammo. The Thompson is much more powerful with each individual round because of the longer barrel. Even though its 'just' a pistol round.

As with everything, there is a point of diminishing returns. For 300BLK, for example, all the powder has been burned by the 9" mark. All a longer barrel is doing is adding unnecessary weight.

Pistol rounds use different powder than rifle rounds because they need to have burned it all of by the 5" mark. You may get some additional velocity, but putting a 9mm into a 16" barrel doesn't turn it into a rifle round: you go from about 1300FPS at 6" to about 1400FPS at 14" and nothing additional after that. You actually start losing velocity with some ammo when you have a barrel longer than 14".

Is taking a 9mm handgun that you can fit into a pocket and making it into a heavier, rifle size package (and losing all concealability) worth getting an extra 7% velocity? Not IMO. That applies just as much to the 10mm above - you go from a concealable pistol firing 1400FPS to a much larger and heavier package and you only get 1500fps, once again like a 7% increase. Seems like a poor trade.

The arguments Vakathi made earlier made sense though, especially limitations on backstops at a range. The indoor range I go to doesn't allow rifles. As a working gun, though... seems like kind of a lame concept.

One advantage is that it is much easier to hit a target with a two-handed "rifle" than it is with a pistol, particularly for those without much time to practice.

Yeah, that's fair.

I suppose another is that at least some PCC's are easier to charge - my wife has a hard time racking the slide on any of the pistols I own.

 Ouze wrote:

Anvildude wrote:
Cheap ammo?

1.) Is it, though? 10mm is like 30-35 cents per round, and .223/5.56 is like 20 cents per round - more or less what 9mm costs.

2.) Why not pay for that same 10mm ammo and have a gun you can conceal under a shirt? 10mm is designed for a pistol length barrel, so giving it substantially more barrel doesn't make it into an amazing round. Out of a 6 inch barrel you're at 650fps, and once you hit 16 inches, you've only gone up to 750fps.

Well most PCCs are available in 9mm. All the ones I've seen in competitions were 9mm.

I like them. You can get one tweaked to weigh about 4.5 lbs, with existing mags and accurate to most ranges you are going to be able to shoot outside of your own land or a range queen. Plus, your 5.56 is loud as gak.

Considering most people at the range seem to shoot their M4 wannabees at most at the 50 and 100 yard range, not seeing much difference. They don't either.
Interesting note. When I shoot pistol against carbines/PCCs on the same range, I will typicallly equal or beat the iron sight guys. But a hack with an optic will kick my ass, especially with a PCC which recoils less and usually is lighter.

Strongly considering getting one for the daughter when she moves out of the dorm, for home offense. The Beretta Storm would be a nice compliment to her FS 92 I am holding for her.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:
There really isn't any doubt that a longer barrel will make the same round more powerful.

Thompsons and 1911s both shoot the same ammo. The Thompson is much more powerful with each individual round because of the longer barrel. Even though its 'just' a pistol round.

I watched a video review of the old WW2 greasegun. Man I want that.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-43142323

What are people’s thoughts?
Is anyone here giving up there guns?

 Zognob Gorgoff wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-43142323

What are people’s thoughts?
Is anyone here giving up there guns?

No... and really, not a topic that should be discussed in this thread.

 whembly wrote:

 Zognob Gorgoff wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-43142323

What are people’s thoughts?
Is anyone here giving up there guns?

No... and really, not a topic that should be discussed in this thread.

Zognob we don't discuss politics in this thread. Unless of course thats 9mm vs. .45 which really isn't a discussion, because everyone knows a 45 will blow the engine block right out of an 18 wheeler. For reelz!

 Frazzled wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 Zognob Gorgoff wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-43142323

What are people’s thoughts?
Is anyone here giving up there guns?

No... and really, not a topic that should be discussed in this thread.

Zognob we don't discuss politics in this thread. Unless of course thats 9mm vs. .45 which really isn't a discussion, because everyone knows a 45 will blow the engine block right out of an 18 wheeler. For reelz!

though, 100 years and still going strong, .45 ACP never been unreliable.

 Frazzled wrote:
Unless of course thats 9mm vs. .45 which really isn't a discussion, because everyone knows a 45 will blow the engine block right out of an 18 wheeler. For reelz!

As much as I like the 1911, it's a bit unwieldy for daily carry, so I do a 9mm subcompact with +P hollowpoints for carry and I keep my 1911 for other shooting stuff.

 Ouze wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Unless of course thats 9mm vs. .45 which really isn't a discussion, because everyone knows a 45 will blow the engine block right out of an 18 wheeler. For reelz!

Spoiler:

As much as I like the 1911, it's a bit unwieldy for daily carry, so I do a 9mm subcompact with +P hollowpoints for carry and I keep my 1911 for other shooting stuff.

You don't even need a 1911. Just throw the bullets. Just throwing them will blow right through a halftrack's door. Hidden WWII fact. the M4 long barreled 76mm Sherman fires a normal 75mm shell with a .45 ACP round taped to the front.

A 9mm kills the body, a .45 kills the soul

Or there’s always the good old “a 9mm may or may not expand, but a .45 will never shrink”.

Fwiw I carry a 9mm.

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
A 9mm kills the body, a .45 kills the soul

Dark days you beat me to that line...

 Insurgency Walker wrote:

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
A 9mm kills the body, a .45 kills the soul

Dark days you beat me to that line...

I'm off work sick home with only the internet and a dog to keep me company

whembly wrote:

 Zognob Gorgoff wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-43142323

What are people’s thoughts?
Is anyone here giving up there guns?

No... and really, not a topic that should be discussed in this thread.

Frazzled wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 Zognob Gorgoff wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-43142323

What are people’s thoughts?
Is anyone here giving up there guns?

No... and really, not a topic that should be discussed in this thread.

Zognob we don't discuss politics in this thread. Unless of course thats 9mm vs. .45 which really isn't a discussion, because everyone knows a 45 will blow the engine block right out of an 18 wheeler. For reelz!

Fair enough - apologies

 Frazzled wrote:
Hidden WWII fact. the M4 long barreled 76mm Sherman fires a normal 75mm shell with a .45 ACP round taped to the front.

middle of a work meeting and people are now looking at me because i laughed (and hence, lost)

I don't own any guns. But when I make enough money to move out of the city one day, I'd love to own both a Scar-H and a Scar-L. They just look so awesome. If they're available, they're the first weapon I'd pick up in any video game. I don't know if its a coincidence that they're all made by FN Herstal, or if that says something about me, but I really like the P90 and .57 pistol too.

Alas, while cool, all of those tend to be expensive pickups, SCAR's tend to run in the ~$3,000 range. They are not cheap, though they are lots of fun

If you want something largely similar to the SCAR16 check out a Cz Bren 805. The designs are very close, made in the Czech Republic, but can be had for $1200-1600 depending on configuration, and most everyone that has handled both tends to prefer the CZ from what I have seen.