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 techsoldaten wrote:
Saw this, CSMs placed 4th in the first heat of the GT.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/742235.page

Anyone know if the actual lists are published?

I feel like I understand why the first place army placed where it did.

6 tactical squads with lascannons is roughly equivalent to the 3 20-man CSM squads I have been playing lately. Facing a large number of heavy weapons each turn is punishing, forces opponents to get in close to try and tie you up. Doesn't work out to be the the optimal strategy for many armies.

Thats how i play it. I have 6 Lascannons in my Chaos Marine Squads, 4 Missiles in the Havocs (coupled with Heavy Bolters) and it seems to d oa ton of fun damage.

brugner8 wrote:

 whembly wrote:

brugner8 wrote:

 whembly wrote:

Yeah... I couldn't make it work either.

-2x Hellblades with halestorm cannon

Hellblades ( which is my favourite chaos model ever ) is horribly sub-par.
He hits most of the thing on 4+, it's cheap but it's also useless....try to use it as a xyphon Interceptor count as, it's 80 points over the hellblade but you get 4 lascannons shot and a mortal wuond missile and it kills everything with FLY...

...good points.

Not a big fan of proxying in tournaments. I'm thinking to replace the helblades with a pair of drakes.

Remenber that tactical role for drakes and aircraft it's completely different

Drakes are useful to early stop units from shooting/moving and to engage powerful anti tank unit in cac. They can be hit without penalties and they have a ridicolous short range weapon, so you have to be really close to the enemy. They are worth IF you need to gain a turn of two for other unit to came in range, it's high probable that for the second turn they will be shot to death.

Yup, the heldrakes are to give Magnus/Morty time to get to the enemy back line.

While the lords summon units as needed and eventually move up towards the enemy.

Supersonic aircraft are -1 to hit and can outrange standard infantry weapons, so you can stay far and safe from massed fire, they are dedicated to kill specific targets or for aerial supremacy.

I'll prolly make the airwing detachment DEATHGUARD so that I can cast Miasma on the Fire Raptor if needed.

Don't need to be Deathguard for that, just Nurgle.

Is anyone actually using R&H artillery along with their CSM detachments? Earthshakers and Quad Launchers appeal to me at the moment, help me understand if they really have any value.

They have value if you want to play shooty. Chaos does not play shooty.

I've recently toyed around with Plas-Pistolero-Raptors & a Plas-Pistolero Lord in my Renegade Chapter - probably better in Nightlords - and they're actually quite funny. For 113 points & shooting while locked in CC or falling back & shoot again they can cause some really nice havoc amongst the enemy lines.

I play 2 Units + Lord for 333 Points for 10 Supercharged Plas-Pistol shots. Not the best, but very good at disrupting something nasty shooty

They have value if you want to play shooty. Chaos does not play shooty.

Chaos actually plays shooty really well IMO ...

EDIT:
Ok, maybe not as well as armies like Guard, but if you really focus on it, CSM can bring some pretty powerful shooting lists. Especially if FW is permitted.

Is anyone actually using R&H artillery along with their CSM detachments? Earthshakers and Quad Launchers appeal to me at the moment, help me understand if they really have any value.

Anecdotal, but from having faced them, I would say they have a lot of value as long as you are building the list around using them.

Is summoning viable at all? I've been looking to start a new army and had been look at the various chaos factions for awhile now. Summoning is my jam in most games I play, but I seem to recall their being some issues with it in 8th. Can summoning work? I see Word Bearers have a summoning stratagem. Can I do dumb stuff like deepstriking a Sorc and have him summon a Bloodthirster?

Mr.Pengwinn wrote:
Is summoning viable at all? I've been looking to start a new army and had been look at the various chaos factions for awhile now. Summoning is my jam in most games I play, but I seem to recall their being some issues with it in 8th. Can summoning work? I see Word Bearers have a summoning stratagem. Can I do dumb stuff like deepstriking a Sorc and have him summon a Bloodthirster?

Nope. Can't move and summon.

Mr.Pengwinn wrote:
Is summoning viable at all? I've been looking to start a new army and had been look at the various chaos factions for awhile now. Summoning is my jam in most games I play, but I seem to recall their being some issues with it in 8th. Can summoning work? I see Word Bearers have a summoning stratagem. Can I do dumb stuff like deepstriking a Sorc and have him summon a Bloodthirster?

Summoning is probably OP in Open & Narrative Play (definitely OP if you’re defending anything), in Matched Play it’s... eh, a gimmick. You can see it as a flexible sideboard of unspent points, but every unit you Summon means another character forfeited their movement phase; losing move>summon has hurt hard. Best utility is for a firebase, bulwarking your screen where it’s weakened or bringing the appropriate unit to deal with the enemy’s big push, and reducing your number of units to deploy. BUT this also means fewer models on the board at the start, losing whatever Detachment bonuses Daemons end up getting, and it’s not much use for a rushdown. Can be handy if you don’t want enough Daemons to make a Detachment but don’t want to lose Legion traits.

I used to bring a Bloodthirster with my 7ed Word Bearers on the offchance, but no way now - rolling a 17 on your Summon attempt is just not an event worth aiming for, rerolls or nay, especially for the amount of points you have to leave off the table. GUO, KoS, and Be’lakor are doable, though. (Pending an FAQ on the minutiae of the latter.)

As it happens, I was just working out a list for the deep strike > summon ploy an hour or so ago. You can’t do it on the turn you arrive, so it takes some setting up. Something has to tank for the Sorcerer. The options I have in mind are:
- Terminators; lots of wounds and solid saves. You’ll probably want a MoS, for Plasma double tap? In which case, cast Delightful Agonies, as you’ve already told your opponent you’ve got Reinforcement Points, so you’re broadcasting your gambit, and they’ll probably suss you out and try to kill their way to the Sorcerer.
- Possessed or Contemptor in a Dreadclaw; pretty tough units, great targets for any of the God-specific endurance spells. Dreadclaw is an ok target for Warptime, it’s a decent Distraction Carnifex (but then, the same is true of Possessed).
- Supersonic Aircraft; I’m actually looking at doing this with a Hellblade. Fly it in the full 50” right up an enemy support character’s backside, teleport down behind it, cast Prescience and Miasma. It’s got a good chance of sniping a nuisance, cannot be charged by ground forces, and is at -2 to be hit with its 5++. I’m looking forwards to giving this a try in a smaller game.
- Kharybdis full of whatever; this is very likely to keep your summoner alive, but if it’s Noise Marines or Warptimed Berzerkers (they’ll be wasted on screening units, cast it on the KAC instead), then... what’s even going to be left for the Daemons to eat?

Once you’ve dropped, question is what to summon. BT and LoC are hardly ever even going to be an option. But... you can aim for a GD, and have a bucket of Plaguebearers or Daemonettes or Flesh Hounds or Horrors to hand for if you fall short.

Your problem then is that your opponent starts the game with like a Land Raider’s worth of points more than you. So you’ve got to find a landing zone where you can survive for a turn, and then have proximate targets for the Daemons to be worth summoning on. And then they’re 9” away from enemies, so likely to not even make any attacks until turn 3, whereupon if you’d spent the points on Warp Talons the enemy’s Devastators would already be dead.

It’s all very gimmicky and reliant on a second half push playing catch up with your first turn paradrops and gunners. I’m hoping that the Hellblade ploy will be a cheap enough buy-in that the whole business is viable, as I really do want to use my Legion Stratagem.

So what is the best Legion to draw Cultists from?

I like the idea of Cultist Horde, even though other armies do Horde so much better. My only obvious concern is Morale. Currently using DG cultists for the rapid fire increase. I also favor the Pox Walker farm lists for Death Guard, feeding bodies into the Pox Pool.

I need a babysitter for the Mobs. Abaddon is prime choice, but Black Legion traits are eh on Cultists. Alpha Legion doesn't give any morale protection. Iron Warriors for their warlord trait and relic armor might fit the bill, but is Ignores cover cultists worth the build?

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
So what is the best Legion to draw Cultists from?

I like the idea of Cultist Horde, even though other armies do Horde so much better. My only obvious concern is Morale. Currently using DG cultists for the rapid fire increase. I also favor the Pox Walker farm lists for Death Guard, feeding bodies into the Pox Pool.

I need a babysitter for the Mobs. Abaddon is prime choice, but Black Legion traits are eh on Cultists. Alpha Legion doesn't give any morale protection. Iron Warriors for their warlord trait and relic armor might fit the bill, but is Ignores cover cultists worth the build?

As an Iron Warriors player, Fearless cultists are totally worth it. At least to blob and protect my tanks.

 lindsay40k wrote:

Mr.Pengwinn wrote:
Is summoning viable at all? I've been looking to start a new army and had been look at the various chaos factions for awhile now. Summoning is my jam in most games I play, but I seem to recall their being some issues with it in 8th. Can summoning work? I see Word Bearers have a summoning stratagem. Can I do dumb stuff like deepstriking a Sorc and have him summon a Bloodthirster?

Summoning is probably OP in Open & Narrative Play (definitely OP if you’re defending anything), in Matched Play it’s... eh, a gimmick. You can see it as a flexible sideboard of unspent points, but every unit you Summon means another character forfeited their movement phase; losing move>summon has hurt hard. Best utility is for a firebase, bulwarking your screen where it’s weakened or bringing the appropriate unit to deal with the enemy’s big push, and reducing your number of units to deploy. BUT this also means fewer models on the board at the start, losing whatever Detachment bonuses Daemons end up getting, and it’s not much use for a rushdown. Can be handy if you don’t want enough Daemons to make a Detachment but don’t want to lose Legion traits.

I used to bring a Bloodthirster with my 7ed Word Bearers on the offchance, but no way now - rolling a 17 on your Summon attempt is just not an event worth aiming for, rerolls or nay, especially for the amount of points you have to leave off the table. GUO, KoS, and Be’lakor are doable, though. (Pending an FAQ on the minutiae of the latter.)

As it happens, I was just working out a list for the deep strike > summon ploy an hour or so ago. You can’t do it on the turn you arrive, so it takes some setting up. Something has to tank for the Sorcerer. The options I have in mind are:
- Terminators; lots of wounds and solid saves. You’ll probably want a MoS, for Plasma double tap? In which case, cast Delightful Agonies, as you’ve already told your opponent you’ve got Reinforcement Points, so you’re broadcasting your gambit, and they’ll probably suss you out and try to kill their way to the Sorcerer.
- Possessed or Contemptor in a Dreadclaw; pretty tough units, great targets for any of the God-specific endurance spells. Dreadclaw is an ok target for Warptime, it’s a decent Distraction Carnifex (but then, the same is true of Possessed).
- Supersonic Aircraft; I’m actually looking at doing this with a Hellblade. Fly it in the full 50” right up an enemy support character’s backside, teleport down behind it, cast Prescience and Miasma. It’s got a good chance of sniping a nuisance, cannot be charged by ground forces, and is at -2 to be hit with its 5++. I’m looking forwards to giving this a try in a smaller game.
- Kharybdis full of whatever; this is very likely to keep your summoner alive, but if it’s Noise Marines or Warptimed Berzerkers (they’ll be wasted on screening units, cast it on the KAC instead), then... what’s even going to be left for the Daemons to eat?

Once you’ve dropped, question is what to summon. BT and LoC are hardly ever even going to be an option. But... you can aim for a GD, and have a bucket of Plaguebearers or Daemonettes or Flesh Hounds or Horrors to hand for if you fall short.

Your problem then is that your opponent starts the game with like a Land Raider’s worth of points more than you. So you’ve got to find a landing zone where you can survive for a turn, and then have proximate targets for the Daemons to be worth summoning on. And then they’re 9” away from enemies, so likely to not even make any attacks until turn 3, whereupon if you’d spent the points on Warp Talons the enemy’s Devastators would already be dead.

It’s all very gimmicky and reliant on a second half push playing catch up with your first turn paradrops and gunners. I’m hoping that the Hellblade ploy will be a cheap enough buy-in that the whole business is viable, as I really do want to use my Legion Stratagem.

Hmm interesting. I'll have to mull it over. Any Chaos Character can summon right? So I can have a Termi Lord summon? Also when you want to summon do you just set aside the points you'll need for it?

Yep, any character with the CHAOS keyword can summon.

I've thought long and hard about a summoning list but at this point in time I don't think it's worth the effort. There are two main issues with the strategy; a) most daemon units aren't that good b) losing your movement phase reduces threat range *significantly*.

Starting with the first problem, most daemon units aren't actually that powerful, especially when compared to some of the heavy hitters in the CSM dex (Berzerkers, Noise marines, even Possessed). The only close combat daemons worth summoning are bloodletters who do a ridiculous amount of damage but are way too fragile to walk up the table. Other units like daemonettes, bloodcrushers or plaguebearers are just straight up less effective. The stars of the daemon codex are the Changeling, brimstone horrors and exalted flamers. None of these units want to be in close combat/range and are most effective when deployed on the table at the beginning of the game.

The second issue of not being able to move before summoning really shuts down the strategy. Best case scenario you are getting summoned units into action on turn 2, but it's most likely going to be turn 3. To get them into the thick of it in turn 2 you need to either deepstrike a character + screen on turn 1 or to move up 12-15 inches on turn 1 so you're in range for a turn 2 summoning. This basically limits you to characters on bikes, with jump packs or a Daemon Prince with wings. After all this you still need to make an 8 inch charge (if you can take an icon) which is only a ~60% chance of success even with spending a command point for a re-roll.

As it stands I think the best way of summoning is to take a terminator bomb with a sorcerer for company. One idea I was thinking *might* work is a biker lord with the talisman of burning blood so he can move, advance and charge on turn 1 which sets him up for summoning in turn 2 (you can summon while locked in combat). If you take a DP with warptime you can semi-reliably get both of them in combat on turn 1, but the issue is they will probably get blown to pieces in your opponents turn.

Hopefully when the Daemons codex comes out it will make their units more viable overall and if we're lucky we might see some bonuses to summoning.

Yep, any character with the CHAOS keyword can summon.

Except Cypher.

Imho Summoning, if unchanged, is vow to disappear. It's already not that good.. so let's guess when Chaos daemon codex appear. At this moment players who want to mix CSM with Daemon will get to separate detachment to get the bonus (but will daemon get a "chapter trait" as they already got one ?), the stratagem (maybe available for our Daemon CSM depending on the wording daemon stratagem will get).

The only thing worthly of a Summoning for me is Herald. It's auto-summoning, it's a psyker. And you can get some nasty combo with Possessed (like Slaanesh Possessed getting 2D3 attack per turn or Nurgle possessed spamming mortal wound likes there is no tomorrow with VotlW + Nurgle daemon spell..)

My Word Bearers get far less mileage from Summoning than they do from a Battalion with two Nurglings units for infiltration, a Plaguebearer unit for objective camping, a Herald for casting, and Karanak for scarecrowing a deep strike character.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And if I want more, it's Outriders - Seekers, Flesh Hounds, another Herald, and my Dreadclaw or Kharybdis that don't get Legion traits anyway.

Usually Fiends as well.

Has anyone tried the Typhon Siege Tank?

Seems like a tough bugger... S8, T9, 2+ armour save, that is surprisingly a bit effective in combat (while still able to shoot out of combat).

I'm spit balling a Super Heavy Detachment with morty/maggie/typhon+LC...

Which leaves ~500pts for rest of the army, that Daemons can bring bodies for that amount...

Thoughts on this tank?

Typhon...

It wants a Chaos Lord quartermaster to maximise its hits.

Factoring in that you’ll use a reroll on a number of shots or wound roll, we’re looking at around 20W against most armoured targets; 14, if it has a 5++:

Say 8 hits because you’ll reroll a 1 on your 2D6, say 5.5 wounds, at 3 damage a pop. 16.5 damage, 11 if it has a 5++. Then two Lascannon hits, 1.3 Wounds, 0.9 unsaved at 3.5 damage, probably another 3 Wounds overall.

The Spartan, on the other hand, gets 14W on a Land Raider class target, regardless of 5++ or not:

Say 8 hits because when you’ve got 8 Lascannon you’re going to add a Lord, say 6 Wounds because you didn’t need to reroll the number of shots, say 4 unsaved by 2+ or 5++, 3.5 damage per wound.

So, if you’re facing Knights or such, the Spartan pretty much has damage parity - and can close range gaps better than the siege gun that need to be stationary to fire 48”. If you’re against unshielded heavy armour, the Typhon wins out. If you’re facing Fortifications, the Typhon’s Strength will make a bigger difference. It’s also going to be a more reliable counter to elite infantry, with guaranteed 3W.

Typhon is pretty harder to kill than the Spartan, not only due to higher T/W but also the fact that it’s not going to zoom off into a killing field to deliver a score of Berzerkers, exposing itself to plasma double taps or close range Melta.

Honestly, I’m inclined to favour the Spartan, as it has the higher threat radius and can drop off my Berzerkers and is cheaper. But I think it’s quite possible to build a viable list around a Typhon. Deep striking psyker with Death Hex will be a handy addition.

Now... I’ve been looking at the Deredeo. That 5++ aura looks really tasty. I’m starting to see AP4/5 in my meta, so my Spartan will probably appreciate the shield. And a single tendril of Cultists or Poxwalkers will gain a lot more endurance. Stomping one of these forwards and tagging two units with a Butcher Cannon Array looks solid to me. Especially for Death Guard, assuming it does benefit from their Legion Trait.

Can't check my book right now but Spartans can take marks right? If so, give them a 5++ or -1 to hit by marking them and casting the relevant spell on them. That approach is more flexible and about 200 points cheaper than a Deredeo who has pretty anaemic damage.

Yeah, my Spartan’s full of Berzerkers and will be decorated with portraits of Angron, I don’t think it’s going to pass for Slaaneshi

Are Helbrutes worth using this edition? My instinct is to use them with Lascannon/Missile Lancher for fire support, but a melee brute is tempting.

I've had some success with the Lascannon/ML combo on a 'brute, especially in Alpha Legion since they benefit from the -1 to hit outside of 12". Mark them Slaanesh and you can use the Endless Cacophony stratagem in a pinch (although that is usually better used on Noise Marines or Obliterators).

Edit: Nevermind you can't use the stratagem with a 'brute since it specifies Infantry or Bikes. Helbrutes are still decent though.

I run a few helbrutes in my walker gunline, and plas/las and missile works pretty well with Fire Frenzy and a Lord nearby. If you run a few of them it’s good to put a fist or lashers on one of them just in case they get tied up by something. Double gun Brutes won’t kill anything in melee and will need the assistance.

AL and DG Helbrutes look sweet but my WB ones don’t seem to survive very long. The threat of Fire Frenzy seems to make them high priority targets. If I played points, I’d field a couple with cheap loadouts, but my meta is PL so I’d be paying for the fists every time. I just go with Contemptors, even bigger fire magnets and got the W and invuln to make it work.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I've had some success with the Lascannon/ML combo on a 'brute, especially in Alpha Legion since they benefit from the -1 to hit outside of 12". Mark them Slaanesh and you can use the Endless Cacophony stratagem in a pinch (although that is usually better used on Noise Marines or Obliterators).

Edit: Nevermind you can't use the stratagem with a 'brute since it specifies Infantry or Bikes. Helbrutes are still decent though.

Helbrutes have their own shoot twice strategem thats only 1 CP, so it can be used alongside endless cacophony at a bargain.

That's why you want en EC Noise Dreadnought with double blastmaster & ML + a full NM squad because more dakka is never enought..

Did you see the good news for our friend Night Lords (or even all player playing against the imperial guard ?)

 Lord Commissar wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I've had some success with the Lascannon/ML combo on a 'brute, especially in Alpha Legion since they benefit from the -1 to hit outside of 12". Mark them Slaanesh and you can use the Endless Cacophony stratagem in a pinch (although that is usually better used on Noise Marines or Obliterators).

Edit: Nevermind you can't use the stratagem with a 'brute since it specifies Infantry or Bikes. Helbrutes are still decent though.

Helbrutes have their own shoot twice strategem thats only 1 CP, so it can be used alongside endless cacophony at a bargain.

Endless Cacophony only applies to infantry and bikers I believe, so Helbrutes can only shoot twice with Fire Frenzy or up to 3 times a turn if Crazed goes off on top of that.

So how are people building World Eaters? Just pure CSM or with a detachment of daemons to go along? I've just played two games at the moment. One 1k and one 1.5k. My 1k list is just Kharne with 9 Berzerkers with axe and sword in a Land Raider and a Lord with a pair of L.Claws with another group of 9 Berzerkers in a Rhino. Both Zerker units have Icons too. And to get it to 1500pts I added a detachment with a Prince with Wings, 10 Bloodletters with Icon and Instrument and 4 Crushers with Icon and Instrument. In the second game I was up against GK with some Iron Hands and I felt that the bloodletters was I bit slow. Was thinking maby in future games I fly the Prince forward and summon the Bloodlettters with him or should I forgo them all together and bring something else and maby bring them as a 20 squad in a 2k game?

For World Eaters, I'm not sure but what if you're going to ally in Daemons, take an Outrider with a Juggerherald of Khorne and 3 squads of Khornedogs. They aren't as good for their points in 8th edition, but they can Deny the Witch, something World Eaters lack other than an artifact and a stratagem. To me, seems like a decent way to beat at least some psychic heavy lists. I'll have to tinker with a list involving them.

We can all stop worrying about Conscript spam, Comissars have been nerfed to Lb buff + morale reroll. Inflict 8 casualties and every one after that will be double. 20 will wipe out the unit, Insane Bravery notwithstanding.