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Made in us
[DCM]
Custodes Shield Captain





Where ever the Emperor needs his eyes

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Because "Chaos" doesn't work that way. Chaos isn't a single entity or concept. It can no less give a man a tentacle as "The Imperium" can give a man a gun.

And whilst I am loathe to quote someone like ADB, I have to in this instance:

Spoiler:
ADB wrote:What is Chaos?

This question is at the heart of the book you hold in your hands. On the face of it, the answer is quite simple. Chaos is the dark force that exists in the warp. This force is exemplified by the four Dark Gods of Chaos: Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle and Slaanesh. The gods want to crush reality and they offer power to those mortals who serve them. This power most often comes in the form of tentacles, supernatural abilities, and a sudden love of grisly trophies and eight-pointed stars. So far, so familiar, yes? And from a certain angle all of that is manifestly true, but it’s not the whole truth. The truth is far, far worse, and that truth is what I wanted to show in Slaves to Darkness.

Chaos is elemental. The forces of the warp are regarded as gods, their servants as daemons, and their powers as sorcery. That is how mortals who know of the warp talk about Chaos, but that is a rationalisation of something much bigger and more terrifying. The forces of Chaos are not gods, in that they are not like people. They have sentience, a strange nightmare sentience patched together from the emotions of mortal races, but they are closer in nature to a cyclone than they are to a person. They are forces of eternal nature; raw and lethal, and wildly destructive. This is not because they choose to be, or because they enjoy it, any more than a flood chooses to sweep away a town, or a tornado flips over cars for kicks. They do what they do because that is what they are. They can be no other way. These powers oppose and antagonise each other like the poles of magnets. Despair and rot claw at the desire for perfection and endless pleasure, war sweeps away subtle power, and so on.

What does that have to do with the Horus Heresy and this book? It is important because it is the reason that the Traitors aren’t made stronger by falling to Chaos. They are made weaker. They are made slaves who can no longer choose their own path. Chaos pulls them apart, divides them, consumes them and sets Horus’ forces against each other. It does not do this because it is a winning strategy, far from it; it does this because it can’t help it. The great powers in the warp, the four that are called gods, can come together and apply their power to a single end, but this can only be temporary. As soon as they align they begin to split. And because they are elemental forces they do this messily, and with all the care of an earthquake.

But why don’t Horus and his followers simply choose not to be swayed by these forces? Why don’t they just take the good bits – the special powers – but stay focused and united in their goals? Because once Chaos has its claws in them, they have no choice. Once an individual has let Chaos take hold of them, their thoughts and emotions begin to resonate and amplify in harmony with the great powers. Other ways of seeing events wither in their perception. The manifest powers of Chaos become a release that can only be accessed by falling deeper into their embrace. Characters fall to Chaos, but they spiral as they fall. They try to escape, but their every choice now only takes them deeper. There is no way out for Horus and those that follow him, they are slaves and doomed through their own choices to fall apart and on each other with murder and treachery.

Once Chaos has hold of a mortal it enables the emotions that drove it into its arms, and feeds them in turn, so that they grow all-consuming and circular. Resentment becomes rage, becomes violence. Pride becomes arrogance. Knowledge becomes blindness to truth. And even if the soul that has fallen fights their fate, they still fall. To fall to Chaos is not to bow to the Chaos Gods, in fact it does not require that you even know that the Dark Gods exist. To rephrase the words hissed by the daemon Samos in the first Horus Heresy novel, Horus Rising: ‘Chaos all around you… It is the person beside you… It is you…’ The elemental power of the Chaos gods comes from the emotions of all sentient beings. Khorne does not exist because people worship it as a god of blood and war; Khorne exists because sentient creatures feel anger and rage, and want to destroy and kill and see their enemies broken. It does not matter to Tzeentch if a mortal who plots for power or hungers for knowledge does so in its name. The emotion and thought is enough to keep the cyclone turning.

That is what Chaos is, it is every weakness given power and set loose against itself without beginning and without end. That is the path that Horus, Lorgar and the first heretics set themselves on when they embraced Chaos. That is, if you like, the point of this book – to show that Horus and those that led him and followed him into darkness have become slaves to forces that they cannot control, bound by the chains of their own natures.





See as much as I like the Forces of Chaos, that makes the Marines that chose to follow it sound all the more like blithering idiots. Particularly those Traitors that weren't Slaves to Darkness at first but eventually became them. Because before they accepted the embrace of Chaos they were watching those that had crumble and fall to madness. Heck that makes all the Marines that fell after even stupider than them, because they had fought them and seen what had become of them.
   
Made in gb
Ork-Hunting Inquisitorial Xenokiller




Please leave my town.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
And whilst I am loathe to quote someone like ADB, I have to in this instance:

That's John French, not ADB.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/11 09:03:25




"Everyone in 40K is wrong." - ADB

Wishing for other people's armies/factions to be squatted should be a bannable offence. 
   
Made in de
Gangly Grot Rebel




Nickin' 'ur stuff

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Because "Chaos" doesn't work that way. Chaos isn't a single entity or concept. It can no less give a man a tentacle as "The Imperium" can give a man a gun.

And whilst I am loathe to quote someone like ADB, I have to in this instance:

Spoiler:
ADB wrote:What is Chaos?

This question is at the heart of the book you hold in your hands. On the face of it, the answer is quite simple. Chaos is the dark force that exists in the warp. This force is exemplified by the four Dark Gods of Chaos: Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle and Slaanesh. The gods want to crush reality and they offer power to those mortals who serve them. This power most often comes in the form of tentacles, supernatural abilities, and a sudden love of grisly trophies and eight-pointed stars. So far, so familiar, yes? And from a certain angle all of that is manifestly true, but it’s not the whole truth. The truth is far, far worse, and that truth is what I wanted to show in Slaves to Darkness.

Chaos is elemental. The forces of the warp are regarded as gods, their servants as daemons, and their powers as sorcery. That is how mortals who know of the warp talk about Chaos, but that is a rationalisation of something much bigger and more terrifying. The forces of Chaos are not gods, in that they are not like people. They have sentience, a strange nightmare sentience patched together from the emotions of mortal races, but they are closer in nature to a cyclone than they are to a person. They are forces of eternal nature; raw and lethal, and wildly destructive. This is not because they choose to be, or because they enjoy it, any more than a flood chooses to sweep away a town, or a tornado flips over cars for kicks. They do what they do because that is what they are. They can be no other way. These powers oppose and antagonise each other like the poles of magnets. Despair and rot claw at the desire for perfection and endless pleasure, war sweeps away subtle power, and so on.

What does that have to do with the Horus Heresy and this book? It is important because it is the reason that the Traitors aren’t made stronger by falling to Chaos. They are made weaker. They are made slaves who can no longer choose their own path. Chaos pulls them apart, divides them, consumes them and sets Horus’ forces against each other. It does not do this because it is a winning strategy, far from it; it does this because it can’t help it. The great powers in the warp, the four that are called gods, can come together and apply their power to a single end, but this can only be temporary. As soon as they align they begin to split. And because they are elemental forces they do this messily, and with all the care of an earthquake.

But why don’t Horus and his followers simply choose not to be swayed by these forces? Why don’t they just take the good bits – the special powers – but stay focused and united in their goals? Because once Chaos has its claws in them, they have no choice. Once an individual has let Chaos take hold of them, their thoughts and emotions begin to resonate and amplify in harmony with the great powers. Other ways of seeing events wither in their perception. The manifest powers of Chaos become a release that can only be accessed by falling deeper into their embrace. Characters fall to Chaos, but they spiral as they fall. They try to escape, but their every choice now only takes them deeper. There is no way out for Horus and those that follow him, they are slaves and doomed through their own choices to fall apart and on each other with murder and treachery.

Once Chaos has hold of a mortal it enables the emotions that drove it into its arms, and feeds them in turn, so that they grow all-consuming and circular. Resentment becomes rage, becomes violence. Pride becomes arrogance. Knowledge becomes blindness to truth. And even if the soul that has fallen fights their fate, they still fall. To fall to Chaos is not to bow to the Chaos Gods, in fact it does not require that you even know that the Dark Gods exist. To rephrase the words hissed by the daemon Samos in the first Horus Heresy novel, Horus Rising: ‘Chaos all around you… It is the person beside you… It is you…’ The elemental power of the Chaos gods comes from the emotions of all sentient beings. Khorne does not exist because people worship it as a god of blood and war; Khorne exists because sentient creatures feel anger and rage, and want to destroy and kill and see their enemies broken. It does not matter to Tzeentch if a mortal who plots for power or hungers for knowledge does so in its name. The emotion and thought is enough to keep the cyclone turning.

That is what Chaos is, it is every weakness given power and set loose against itself without beginning and without end. That is the path that Horus, Lorgar and the first heretics set themselves on when they embraced Chaos. That is, if you like, the point of this book – to show that Horus and those that led him and followed him into darkness have become slaves to forces that they cannot control, bound by the chains of their own natures.





See as much as I like the Forces of Chaos, that makes the Marines that chose to follow it sound all the more like blithering idiots. Particularly those Traitors that weren't Slaves to Darkness at first but eventually became them. Because before they accepted the embrace of Chaos they were watching those that had crumble and fall to madness. Heck that makes all the Marines that fell after even stupider than them, because they had fought them and seen what had become of them.


Wow, that is a slap in the face for every chaos player....I mean I get that that might be out of a "imperial" viewpint, but he ist literally saying that chaos makes it's follower weaker. And not in a faustian-trade way that you trade free will for power, but simply weaker.

Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like soup. Now you put soup in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put soup into a bottle it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now soup can flow or it can crash. Be soup, my friend. 
   
Made in gb
Dive-Bombin' Fighta-Bomba Pilot






Waaaghbert wrote:
 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Because "Chaos" doesn't work that way. Chaos isn't a single entity or concept. It can no less give a man a tentacle as "The Imperium" can give a man a gun.

And whilst I am loathe to quote someone like ADB, I have to in this instance:

Spoiler:
ADB wrote:What is Chaos?

This question is at the heart of the book you hold in your hands. On the face of it, the answer is quite simple. Chaos is the dark force that exists in the warp. This force is exemplified by the four Dark Gods of Chaos: Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle and Slaanesh. The gods want to crush reality and they offer power to those mortals who serve them. This power most often comes in the form of tentacles, supernatural abilities, and a sudden love of grisly trophies and eight-pointed stars. So far, so familiar, yes? And from a certain angle all of that is manifestly true, but it’s not the whole truth. The truth is far, far worse, and that truth is what I wanted to show in Slaves to Darkness.

Chaos is elemental. The forces of the warp are regarded as gods, their servants as daemons, and their powers as sorcery. That is how mortals who know of the warp talk about Chaos, but that is a rationalisation of something much bigger and more terrifying. The forces of Chaos are not gods, in that they are not like people. They have sentience, a strange nightmare sentience patched together from the emotions of mortal races, but they are closer in nature to a cyclone than they are to a person. They are forces of eternal nature; raw and lethal, and wildly destructive. This is not because they choose to be, or because they enjoy it, any more than a flood chooses to sweep away a town, or a tornado flips over cars for kicks. They do what they do because that is what they are. They can be no other way. These powers oppose and antagonise each other like the poles of magnets. Despair and rot claw at the desire for perfection and endless pleasure, war sweeps away subtle power, and so on.

What does that have to do with the Horus Heresy and this book? It is important because it is the reason that the Traitors aren’t made stronger by falling to Chaos. They are made weaker. They are made slaves who can no longer choose their own path. Chaos pulls them apart, divides them, consumes them and sets Horus’ forces against each other. It does not do this because it is a winning strategy, far from it; it does this because it can’t help it. The great powers in the warp, the four that are called gods, can come together and apply their power to a single end, but this can only be temporary. As soon as they align they begin to split. And because they are elemental forces they do this messily, and with all the care of an earthquake.

But why don’t Horus and his followers simply choose not to be swayed by these forces? Why don’t they just take the good bits – the special powers – but stay focused and united in their goals? Because once Chaos has its claws in them, they have no choice. Once an individual has let Chaos take hold of them, their thoughts and emotions begin to resonate and amplify in harmony with the great powers. Other ways of seeing events wither in their perception. The manifest powers of Chaos become a release that can only be accessed by falling deeper into their embrace. Characters fall to Chaos, but they spiral as they fall. They try to escape, but their every choice now only takes them deeper. There is no way out for Horus and those that follow him, they are slaves and doomed through their own choices to fall apart and on each other with murder and treachery.

Once Chaos has hold of a mortal it enables the emotions that drove it into its arms, and feeds them in turn, so that they grow all-consuming and circular. Resentment becomes rage, becomes violence. Pride becomes arrogance. Knowledge becomes blindness to truth. And even if the soul that has fallen fights their fate, they still fall. To fall to Chaos is not to bow to the Chaos Gods, in fact it does not require that you even know that the Dark Gods exist. To rephrase the words hissed by the daemon Samos in the first Horus Heresy novel, Horus Rising: ‘Chaos all around you… It is the person beside you… It is you…’ The elemental power of the Chaos gods comes from the emotions of all sentient beings. Khorne does not exist because people worship it as a god of blood and war; Khorne exists because sentient creatures feel anger and rage, and want to destroy and kill and see their enemies broken. It does not matter to Tzeentch if a mortal who plots for power or hungers for knowledge does so in its name. The emotion and thought is enough to keep the cyclone turning.

That is what Chaos is, it is every weakness given power and set loose against itself without beginning and without end. That is the path that Horus, Lorgar and the first heretics set themselves on when they embraced Chaos. That is, if you like, the point of this book – to show that Horus and those that led him and followed him into darkness have become slaves to forces that they cannot control, bound by the chains of their own natures.





See as much as I like the Forces of Chaos, that makes the Marines that chose to follow it sound all the more like blithering idiots. Particularly those Traitors that weren't Slaves to Darkness at first but eventually became them. Because before they accepted the embrace of Chaos they were watching those that had crumble and fall to madness. Heck that makes all the Marines that fell after even stupider than them, because they had fought them and seen what had become of them.


Wow, that is a slap in the face for every chaos player....I mean I get that that might be out of a "imperial" viewpint, but he ist literally saying that chaos makes it's follower weaker. And not in a faustian-trade way that you trade free will for power, but simply weaker.


I suppose it depends on your interpretation of the summary on Chaos. I don't think it says it makes the follower flat weaker in terms of strength or combat ability. To me, it says that by definition Chaos makes it's follower weaker because Chaos will always tear itself apart, ultimately (among other things).

Most of the Marines of the Chaos Legions oppose the Emperor because they believe it will lead to a better future. Many don't have knowledge of the true nature of Chaos like this and presumably see it as a means to an end. Perhaps they simply see Chaos in an "Imperial Truth" kind of way - as a resource to be exploited for the betterment of Humanity. Let's not forget that the Emperor wasn't averse to making "deals" with Chaos or using the powers it confers (psychic powers).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/11 09:37:48


 
   
Made in gb
Foolproof Falcon Pilot




East of England

The Talons of Horus/Black Legion books are a great representation of the veterans of the long war imo.

CSMs have reasons, grudges, hopes, rallying calls, allegiances, friendships and politics. They are not puppets, any more than SMs are. They are the disenfranchised, the betrayed and the betrayers, the oldest, wisest and maddest of the space marines. They knew Horus, they conquered the galaxy. The warp they know: true reality is known to them, unlike the gritted-teeth dogma of their loyalist brothers who take denial to an art form.

They have lived for an eternity, touched immortality, all have been betrayed once by a false god and most a second time by the true gods. They are no slaves, sleep-walkers, they see their condition, have an attitude towards it, and seek their own ends, despite or because what they have become.
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 Duskweaver wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
And whilst I am loathe to quote someone like ADB, I have to in this instance:

That's John French, not ADB.
Oh? Well good then.

   
Made in gb
Wight Lord with the Sword of Kings






UK

 Virules wrote:
Darsath wrote:
Selfcontrol wrote:
*sigh*

From Warhammer Community :

It then presents a host of new rules for the Space Marines – including a codex expansion’s worth of rules for the storied Black Templars Chapter – and loads of awesome new content for the story’s antagonists, the Heretic Astartes.


The french rumour monger (who proved to be extremely reliable) already told us CSM are getting the equivalent of Vigilus for the missing Traitor Legions (no new Traits or equivalent to Doctrines). Only BT will get the full "supplement" ala Iron Hands, Salamanders etc.

And this quote from Warhammer Community nails it.

Can we put an end to these speculations which were born out of some strange interpretations of ONE sentence ?


Good catch there. I'm still going to wait for the reviews before I'm absolutely convinced, but this is still fairly damning. I really hope that there's a bunch of 2.0 codexes coming out in quick succession soon to make up for their mistakes.


As much as I would like this (as someone playing CSM, Daemons, DG, and Thousand Sons, who are some of the oldest rules designs and mistakes), I am skeptical this will happen. Especially for CSM who recently got screwed on their 1.5 rather than 2.0 codex.

However, it does the raise the question - what is next in 8th edition? Obviously they will keep pumping out Psychic Awakening for easy dollars and extra high-priced kits here and there.

But what about codexes? We are about to get Sisters, we already got Chaos Knights. Inquisition is about to be in White Dwarf. We've got supplements for SM chapters. Legions are getting a half-hearted option with a PA book rather than full codexes or full supplements (at least it saves money!).

Unless they introduce brand new factions, they are now out of armies that still need codexes. Emperor's Children and World Eaters are obvious options, but sadly that seems less likely given that in a few weeks they will have some extra rules in a PA book. So I am not sure what they will do other than more campaign books...seems like 2.0 codexes is the obvious option.


Supplements?

It depends on how they sold but they could do supplements for factions and subfactions other than Marines but i doubt it. The option was there for Chaos Marines to get them but they didn't bother.

Given that they are just releasing a Sister of Silence and Custodes together - a proper Talons the Emperor Codex would be nice but since they won't include FW models might be as poor as the nof effort WD Codex for Sisters of Silence.

Chaos doesn’t want to win. If it wins it dies. Chaos simply wants to continue the great game.

Chaos doesn't "want" anything. Stop attributing simple desires to something that is beyond comprehension.

Parts of it does - parts of it are in fact nothing more than desire, need and want and yes parts of it are happy for the great game to continue for eternity, or stop other bits winning etc

I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Waaaghbert wrote:
 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Because "Chaos" doesn't work that way. Chaos isn't a single entity or concept. It can no less give a man a tentacle as "The Imperium" can give a man a gun.

And whilst I am loathe to quote someone like ADB, I have to in this instance:

Spoiler:
ADB wrote:What is Chaos?

This question is at the heart of the book you hold in your hands. On the face of it, the answer is quite simple. Chaos is the dark force that exists in the warp. This force is exemplified by the four Dark Gods of Chaos: Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle and Slaanesh. The gods want to crush reality and they offer power to those mortals who serve them. This power most often comes in the form of tentacles, supernatural abilities, and a sudden love of grisly trophies and eight-pointed stars. So far, so familiar, yes? And from a certain angle all of that is manifestly true, but it’s not the whole truth. The truth is far, far worse, and that truth is what I wanted to show in Slaves to Darkness.

Chaos is elemental. The forces of the warp are regarded as gods, their servants as daemons, and their powers as sorcery. That is how mortals who know of the warp talk about Chaos, but that is a rationalisation of something much bigger and more terrifying. The forces of Chaos are not gods, in that they are not like people. They have sentience, a strange nightmare sentience patched together from the emotions of mortal races, but they are closer in nature to a cyclone than they are to a person. They are forces of eternal nature; raw and lethal, and wildly destructive. This is not because they choose to be, or because they enjoy it, any more than a flood chooses to sweep away a town, or a tornado flips over cars for kicks. They do what they do because that is what they are. They can be no other way. These powers oppose and antagonise each other like the poles of magnets. Despair and rot claw at the desire for perfection and endless pleasure, war sweeps away subtle power, and so on.

What does that have to do with the Horus Heresy and this book? It is important because it is the reason that the Traitors aren’t made stronger by falling to Chaos. They are made weaker. They are made slaves who can no longer choose their own path. Chaos pulls them apart, divides them, consumes them and sets Horus’ forces against each other. It does not do this because it is a winning strategy, far from it; it does this because it can’t help it. The great powers in the warp, the four that are called gods, can come together and apply their power to a single end, but this can only be temporary. As soon as they align they begin to split. And because they are elemental forces they do this messily, and with all the care of an earthquake.

But why don’t Horus and his followers simply choose not to be swayed by these forces? Why don’t they just take the good bits – the special powers – but stay focused and united in their goals? Because once Chaos has its claws in them, they have no choice. Once an individual has let Chaos take hold of them, their thoughts and emotions begin to resonate and amplify in harmony with the great powers. Other ways of seeing events wither in their perception. The manifest powers of Chaos become a release that can only be accessed by falling deeper into their embrace. Characters fall to Chaos, but they spiral as they fall. They try to escape, but their every choice now only takes them deeper. There is no way out for Horus and those that follow him, they are slaves and doomed through their own choices to fall apart and on each other with murder and treachery.

Once Chaos has hold of a mortal it enables the emotions that drove it into its arms, and feeds them in turn, so that they grow all-consuming and circular. Resentment becomes rage, becomes violence. Pride becomes arrogance. Knowledge becomes blindness to truth. And even if the soul that has fallen fights their fate, they still fall. To fall to Chaos is not to bow to the Chaos Gods, in fact it does not require that you even know that the Dark Gods exist. To rephrase the words hissed by the daemon Samos in the first Horus Heresy novel, Horus Rising: ‘Chaos all around you… It is the person beside you… It is you…’ The elemental power of the Chaos gods comes from the emotions of all sentient beings. Khorne does not exist because people worship it as a god of blood and war; Khorne exists because sentient creatures feel anger and rage, and want to destroy and kill and see their enemies broken. It does not matter to Tzeentch if a mortal who plots for power or hungers for knowledge does so in its name. The emotion and thought is enough to keep the cyclone turning.

That is what Chaos is, it is every weakness given power and set loose against itself without beginning and without end. That is the path that Horus, Lorgar and the first heretics set themselves on when they embraced Chaos. That is, if you like, the point of this book – to show that Horus and those that led him and followed him into darkness have become slaves to forces that they cannot control, bound by the chains of their own natures.





See as much as I like the Forces of Chaos, that makes the Marines that chose to follow it sound all the more like blithering idiots. Particularly those Traitors that weren't Slaves to Darkness at first but eventually became them. Because before they accepted the embrace of Chaos they were watching those that had crumble and fall to madness. Heck that makes all the Marines that fell after even stupider than them, because they had fought them and seen what had become of them.


Wow, that is a slap in the face for every chaos player....I mean I get that that might be out of a "imperial" viewpint, but he ist literally saying that chaos makes it's follower weaker. And not in a faustian-trade way that you trade free will for power, but simply weaker.

But that was always the case with Chaos, from WFB through 40k to Age of Sigmar? Chaos was always the sort of self-defeating villain. I dislike imperiumslobbering as much as anyone, but this one has been canon as long as chaos had a place in GW setting.
   
Made in fr
Hallowed Canoness





Cronch wrote:
But that was always the case with Chaos, from WFB through 40k to Age of Sigmar?

No. Chaos warriors in WFB were really a whole level above normal human troops, and even the mere marauders were stronger than empire swordsmen. Chaos was a huge power boost, at the cost of your soul. Liked it much better that way.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/11 12:03:12


 
   
Made in de
Gangly Grot Rebel




Nickin' 'ur stuff

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Cronch wrote:
But that was always the case with Chaos, from WFB through 40k to Age of Sigmar?

No. Chaos warriors in WFB were really a whole level above normal human troops, and even the mere marauders were stronger than empire swordsmen. Chaos was a huge power boost, at the cost of your soul. Liked it much better that way.


Exactly this! Maybe I got that text wrong, but Chaos was "the easy way" you sold your soul for immense power, not only for tentacles (sometimes sure, but not always). Like I said before, it was the faustian trade, your soul for power. And of course many got screwed over and became slaves to chaos, but not all of them. How do you explain someone like Abbadon, who manages to get the favour of all gods without commiting to one exactly in order to keep his free will! Cultists or weak minded individuals sure, they'll sell their soul and become mindless slaves...but Horus, Abbadon or other significant Marines? Meh...

Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like soup. Now you put soup in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put soup into a bottle it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now soup can flow or it can crash. Be soup, my friend. 
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

But isn't that the entire crux? Surely Chaos won't spawnify ME? I am strong, not like those other pansies!

It really does work as a commentary on the Leopards Eating People's Faces Party concept.

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Archaon is straight up the most powerful thing in AoS. He soloed Nagash, Sigmar and tells the gods to get stuffed. I get the feeling this is a kind of cope since by the logic of the setting (older, bigger = more powerful, glorious lost past etc) 10,000 year veterans of the long war would be stomping all but Mephiston tier marines. I think you have to compartmentalise 40k a bit. The Imperium is bad and oppressive and stuff but also the de facto good guys as well as the literal good guys. It really depends on the story being told or the facet of the setting being explored. The same applies to chaos IMO.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/11/11 12:37:33


 
   
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 grouchoben wrote:
The Talons of Horus/Black Legion books are a great representation of the veterans of the long war imo.

CSMs have reasons, grudges, hopes, rallying calls, allegiances, friendships and politics. They are not puppets, any more than SMs are. They are the disenfranchised, the betrayed and the betrayers, the oldest, wisest and maddest of the space marines. They knew Horus, they conquered the galaxy. The warp they know: true reality is known to them, unlike the gritted-teeth dogma of their loyalist brothers who take denial to an art form.

They have lived for an eternity, touched immortality, all have been betrayed once by a false god and most a second time by the true gods. They are no slaves, sleep-walkers, they see their condition, have an attitude towards it, and seek their own ends, despite or because what they have become.


All part of the tragedy of the Lost and the Damned.

They honestly think they're in control. They genuinely think they can comprehend, now or at some point, the nature of the power's they worship.

But they cannot. The Chaos Gods are insane. And always have been. Khorne likes to test his champions. But it's not to make them stronger or to find the most worthy. He does it because he likes a good scrap, and cares not from where the blood flows. Regardless of who wins, Khorne gets his due. Nurgle likewise. He's all about the proliferation of life. That's why he favours diseases and that - from one life, untold billions of organisms flow. Tzeentch? Plans within plans within plans within plans. Akin to Khorne, Tzeentch is too far gone to care if any given plan or plotter succeeds. The worship is the act, not the outcome.

Slaanesh? A threat to the other Gods because Slaanesh gains power through excess. And guess what all the Champions of the other Gods do? Everything to excess. The Skulls might go to Khorne, but the thrill of the kill goes to Slaanesh. Same with the other two.

Look at the gifts they bestow. It's long established (far back as the original Realm of Chaos books) that the Gods draw absolutely no distinction between a useful gift (say, Iron hard skin) and a debilitating one (face of a Chicken). They have no concept either way. And once you start down the dark path, other than outright damnation, you have three outcomes. Death, Daemonhood, and Spawndom. Becoming a Daemon Prince is as much a matter of luck as worship.

And Chaos is inherently self-defeating. The Gods can work together, for a time. But it will always fall apart, because each one wants to be the ultimate winner. This is covered quite nicely in the AoS background. See, after Sigmar shut himself away in Azyrheim (working on the Stormcast), they overran all the other realms - and immediately turned on each other before the job was complete. They lack true unity, because they lack sanity.

Consider their mortal rivals in 40k. Orks, Eldar, Imperium, Tau and Necron. All of those species can, to some degree, more or less co-operate. For a time. Alliances can be made or bought.

Orks are the wildcard of course, because all they really want to do is krump stuff. In theory (and only in theory), a wily Imperial Commander could re-direct an Ork Waaaaagh! into the path of a Traitor Fleet - either through bribery or cunning. And we've seen the Eldar pull off much the same, thanks to Farseer intervention.

The others have some greater degree of sanity, and appreciation for the bigger picture. When the Chaos Fleets are threatening to smash everything, better to stand together to repulse them, and finish your masterplan later. And that can include temporary truces to allow oneself (if not your erstwhile allies) to regather your strength in between.

CSM just don't think they're puppets. But they are. Of course they are. Few warbands will have their own supply lines. So they must rely on others - including the Dark Mechanicum who demand soul stuff to feed their forges. It all helps drive atrocity after atrocity, due to the constant need to prove oneself and provide suitable tribute. And to what end? They have no freedom to abandon that path. They're much too far down it to ever turn away. There is no peace for them. There can be no lasting victory. They're in it until death.

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 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Cronch wrote:
But that was always the case with Chaos, from WFB through 40k to Age of Sigmar?

No. Chaos warriors in WFB were really a whole level above normal human troops, and even the mere marauders were stronger than empire swordsmen. Chaos was a huge power boost, at the cost of your soul. Liked it much better that way.

They were individually stronger physically, but pretty much every story underscored that they lacked cohesion and often acted irrational, which is how the weaker, but sane races managed to stave off the End Times till Archaon, the Chaos Jesus who spends most of time telling Chaos he doesn't even like it, managed to literally kick every chaos warlord in one direction. Chaos does make you weaker as a person, even if it does provide temporary boost to your physical prowess.
   
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we also see it in 40K, after the great rift opened, the 4 chaos gods lost intreast and started doing their own things, like a quartet of hyperactive toddlers with ADHD

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Nickin' 'ur stuff

Spoiler:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
 grouchoben wrote:
The Talons of Horus/Black Legion books are a great representation of the veterans of the long war imo.

CSMs have reasons, grudges, hopes, rallying calls, allegiances, friendships and politics. They are not puppets, any more than SMs are. They are the disenfranchised, the betrayed and the betrayers, the oldest, wisest and maddest of the space marines. They knew Horus, they conquered the galaxy. The warp they know: true reality is known to them, unlike the gritted-teeth dogma of their loyalist brothers who take denial to an art form.

They have lived for an eternity, touched immortality, all have been betrayed once by a false god and most a second time by the true gods. They are no slaves, sleep-walkers, they see their condition, have an attitude towards it, and seek their own ends, despite or because what they have become.


All part of the tragedy of the Lost and the Damned.

They honestly think they're in control. They genuinely think they can comprehend, now or at some point, the nature of the power's they worship.

But they cannot. The Chaos Gods are insane. And always have been. Khorne likes to test his champions. But it's not to make them stronger or to find the most worthy. He does it because he likes a good scrap, and cares not from where the blood flows. Regardless of who wins, Khorne gets his due. Nurgle likewise. He's all about the proliferation of life. That's why he favours diseases and that - from one life, untold billions of organisms flow. Tzeentch? Plans within plans within plans within plans. Akin to Khorne, Tzeentch is too far gone to care if any given plan or plotter succeeds. The worship is the act, not the outcome.

Slaanesh? A threat to the other Gods because Slaanesh gains power through excess. And guess what all the Champions of the other Gods do? Everything to excess. The Skulls might go to Khorne, but the thrill of the kill goes to Slaanesh. Same with the other two.

Look at the gifts they bestow. It's long established (far back as the original Realm of Chaos books) that the Gods draw absolutely no distinction between a useful gift (say, Iron hard skin) and a debilitating one (face of a Chicken). They have no concept either way. And once you start down the dark path, other than outright damnation, you have three outcomes. Death, Daemonhood, and Spawndom. Becoming a Daemon Prince is as much a matter of luck as worship.

And Chaos is inherently self-defeating. The Gods can work together, for a time. But it will always fall apart, because each one wants to be the ultimate winner. This is covered quite nicely in the AoS background. See, after Sigmar shut himself away in Azyrheim (working on the Stormcast), they overran all the other realms - and immediately turned on each other before the job was complete. They lack true unity, because they lack sanity.

Consider their mortal rivals in 40k. Orks, Eldar, Imperium, Tau and Necron. All of those species can, to some degree, more or less co-operate. For a time. Alliances can be made or bought.

Orks are the wildcard of course, because all they really want to do is krump stuff. In theory (and only in theory), a wily Imperial Commander could re-direct an Ork Waaaaagh! into the path of a Traitor Fleet - either through bribery or cunning. And we've seen the Eldar pull off much the same, thanks to Farseer intervention.

The others have some greater degree of sanity, and appreciation for the bigger picture. When the Chaos Fleets are threatening to smash everything, better to stand together to repulse them, and finish your masterplan later. And that can include temporary truces to allow oneself (if not your erstwhile allies) to regather your strength in between.

CSM just don't think they're puppets. But they are. Of course they are. Few warbands will have their own supply lines. So they must rely on others - including the Dark Mechanicum who demand soul stuff to feed their forges. It all helps drive atrocity after atrocity, due to the constant need to prove oneself and provide suitable tribute. And to what end? They have no freedom to abandon that path. They're much too far down it to ever turn away. There is no peace for them. There can be no lasting victory. They're in it until death.


Well put and completely true! I get the tragic part that CSM are puppets...of course they are (at least most of them, an even the strongest of will WILL succumb some day).

I just think the term "weaker" is badly chosen. Because the tragedy is sacrifice free will for power, not for weakness. It would just be stupid if they sacrifice their freedom for nothing upfront (for them individually stupid, but also storywise), they get power upfront...for a terrible price. They have to be lured in with something


Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like soup. Now you put soup in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put soup into a bottle it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now soup can flow or it can crash. Be soup, my friend. 
   
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JSG wrote:
The Imperium is bad and oppressive and stuff but also the de facto good guys as well as the literal good guys.


Orks, Tau, Eldar, Harlequins, hell even Genestealer Cults and maybe Tyranids in general are closer to moral "good guys" than the imperium.

CWE and Harlequins are working to preserve their species, they simply do not view humans as intelligent life on the same tier as themselves, in much the same way as we humans would kill a gorilla (F to pay respect) if we thought it was threatening a child.

Tau are pretty much the same level of oppressive as the imperium, except that they will allow alien races to be subjugated rather than eradicated.

Orks operate on an entirely different moral framework to humans, because fighting and war are entertainment and reproduction to them.

GSC are rebelling against a corrupt and evil empire. They are unwittingly inviting destruction, but do possess superior morals to the imperium despite that ignorance.

And tyranids are just predatory animals acting on instinct.

Imperium is not the literal good guys. They're not even in the top 5. And I'm talking about the faction in general here, not the morality of individual groups like Salamanders who still operate within the imperial system.
   
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Rihgu wrote:
Why does everybody think "supplement level" means doctrines + enhanced traits? Those are both things added by the codex, not the supplement.
All the supplements add are... stratagems, relics, warlord traits... you know, like what Black Legion got in Vigilus.
Expecting anything more than that based on "supplement level" seems really strange.
The problem is that Marines got elevated to a whole new level in power with their codex and supplements and sofar it looks like no one else is getting that treatment and instead a bunch of half-hearted scraps thrown at them.
At this point you should be praying your faction doesn't show up in PA, because it will likely mean no new codex in the forseeable future.
   
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The only true Good Guys are Orks.

Nothing they do is ever personal. They're just fulfilling their genetic imperative without guile or pretence.

Eldar will sacrifice a world of Billions, to save a handful of lives. So a more apt comparisson would be humans deciding to wipe out all Gorillas because one might, at some point, harm a child.

Orks? They'll smash up your world because that's just their way of life. There's no malice aforethought, not in the way we understand it. No motive beyond 'lets get on our ship, see where we end up, and then smash it, because smashing stuff is fun and good and makes us bigger'.

Consider why they're drawn to warzones in ever greater numbers. It's not to win a war - it's to get involved in a really, really big fight.

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Tau are pretty much the same level of oppressive as the imperium, except that they will allow alien races to be subjugated rather than eradicated.

Tau are nowhere near as bad as the Imperium. Imperium's policy towards any technological alien race is automatic destruction if possible. Tau will try to incorporate you by diplomacy first and then by force if they can, but they do give you the option for peaceful incorporation, and they won't genocide you if they win, they just make you a subject of the Ethereals.
Then you have the simple fact that even as a subject of the Tau, you can expect better life quality, safer environment and more respect for life than 99% of Imperial subjects. Tau do not routinely sacrifice their citizenry as bait or simply to "cleanse" a world. They will attempt to evacuate a threatened colony, not exterminatus it to deny resources or leave it on the vine if it's not worth the effort.

Heck, the Tau won't even force your species into one of their existing castes, you will be allowed to keep your beliefs and culture as long as you chip in to their economy and Greater Good by production or service as troops.

Compared to the Imperium, they are literal saviors of humanity, offering hope, safety and dignity, even if from our modern point of view, they are as imperialist as Rome or Britain at the height of it's power.
   
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If memory serves, there was rumour of declining birth rates on Tau occupied worlds.

Unless I've imagined this (I'm aware this happens in Stargate SG:1), that's still genocide.

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 Ordana wrote:
At this point you should be praying your faction doesn't show up in PA, because it will likely mean no new codex in the forseeable future.

All factions except for the really tiny ones like Inquisition or Sisters of Silence are getting stuff in Psychic Awakening:

Spoiler:


And we already know Sisters of Battle are getting a new codex soon, and they're in PA as well.

   
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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
The only true Good Guys are Orks.

Nothing they do is ever personal. They're just fulfilling their genetic imperative without guile or pretence.


* Kantian anger intensifies *

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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
If memory serves, there was rumour of declining birth rates on Tau occupied worlds.

Unless I've imagined this (I'm aware this happens in Stargate SG:1), that's still genocide.


That was from one of the Dawn of War games, and not even the canonical ending for that particular instalment of the series, so it cannot really stand as proof.


The Tau are a threat because they are an ideological alternative to the Imperium that is attractive to the average Imperial citizen. That is why worlds near the Tau empire ended up trading with it, because it brought measurable material benefits. Of course the Tau are self-serving in their own way, but what matters for the average Imperial is going to be what feeds them and their family and their work conditions. The other idea that the Imperium views as threatening is the idea of separation of religion and state, with the Tau permitting Emperor worship under a Tau secular government.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/11 13:23:17


 
   
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I am quite upset to hear Black Templars are only getting supplement level rules in the new PA, whilst my CSM are still looking pretty awful in comparison. I wouldn't mind so much if they hadn't of sold me Vigilius 2 and CSM codex 2.0 which followed by loyalist was just... Wow....

Hopefully the new CSM bonuses apply army wide and not just infantry/biker/dreadnoughts cause that is such an annoyingly limited thing at this point and has no right existing on any army.
   
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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
If memory serves, there was rumour of declining birth rates on Tau occupied worlds.

Unless I've imagined this (I'm aware this happens in Stargate SG:1), that's still genocide.

As pointed out, this is from a video game, not canon material. However, let's assume this is in fact canon, and Tau do practice state-enforced birth control for conquered species, that's still nowhere near the same level of hate towards human life that Imperium displays on regular basis.
   
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Cronch wrote:

As pointed out, this is from a video game, not canon material. However, let's assume this is in fact canon, and Tau do practice state-enforced birth control for conquered species, that's still nowhere near the same level of hate towards human life that Imperium displays on regular basis.


I see we've entered into the "degrees of genocide" portion of our internet scream fest.
   
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The Imperium does it in the name of survival.

It's horrific by modern standards, necessary according to The High Lords.

The Tau do it in the name of expansion and conquest.

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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
The Imperium does it in the name of survival.

It's horrific by modern standards, necessary according to The High Lords.

The Tau do it in the name of expansion and conquest.

Except the tau don't. Tau don't exterminate it's own citizens, Tau don't abandon their own citizens, and Tau care about the well being of their own citizens, and even their client races to a large extent. I can think of one instance of Tau forces going overboard against human opposition, and they got quickly slapped on the wrist by the Ethereal caste for acting too much like their human enemies. So no, they don't "do it". Imperium is just as bad as chaos when it comes to treating human life, and even eldar, who largely leave humanity alone, are less of a threat to your average human than the Imperium.
The Imperium was always written as the bad guys, from the start.
In fact, the mere continued existence of Tau proves the point that Imperium is wrong in all aspects. Despite being faced with older, meaner, and generally evil-acting races (except for Eldar, who just do eldar things), Tau expand and prosper, without resorting to all the things that Imperium resorts to (which, let's not forget, are also largely against Emperor's vision for humanity back before he became a chair).

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/11/11 14:05:14


 
   
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 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Because "Chaos" doesn't work that way. Chaos isn't a single entity or concept. It can no less give a man a tentacle as "The Imperium" can give a man a gun.

And whilst I am loathe to quote someone like ADB, I have to in this instance:

Spoiler:
ADB wrote:What is Chaos?

This question is at the heart of the book you hold in your hands. On the face of it, the answer is quite simple. Chaos is the dark force that exists in the warp. This force is exemplified by the four Dark Gods of Chaos: Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle and Slaanesh. The gods want to crush reality and they offer power to those mortals who serve them. This power most often comes in the form of tentacles, supernatural abilities, and a sudden love of grisly trophies and eight-pointed stars. So far, so familiar, yes? And from a certain angle all of that is manifestly true, but it’s not the whole truth. The truth is far, far worse, and that truth is what I wanted to show in Slaves to Darkness.

Chaos is elemental. The forces of the warp are regarded as gods, their servants as daemons, and their powers as sorcery. That is how mortals who know of the warp talk about Chaos, but that is a rationalisation of something much bigger and more terrifying. The forces of Chaos are not gods, in that they are not like people. They have sentience, a strange nightmare sentience patched together from the emotions of mortal races, but they are closer in nature to a cyclone than they are to a person. They are forces of eternal nature; raw and lethal, and wildly destructive. This is not because they choose to be, or because they enjoy it, any more than a flood chooses to sweep away a town, or a tornado flips over cars for kicks. They do what they do because that is what they are. They can be no other way. These powers oppose and antagonise each other like the poles of magnets. Despair and rot claw at the desire for perfection and endless pleasure, war sweeps away subtle power, and so on.

What does that have to do with the Horus Heresy and this book? It is important because it is the reason that the Traitors aren’t made stronger by falling to Chaos. They are made weaker. They are made slaves who can no longer choose their own path. Chaos pulls them apart, divides them, consumes them and sets Horus’ forces against each other. It does not do this because it is a winning strategy, far from it; it does this because it can’t help it. The great powers in the warp, the four that are called gods, can come together and apply their power to a single end, but this can only be temporary. As soon as they align they begin to split. And because they are elemental forces they do this messily, and with all the care of an earthquake.

But why don’t Horus and his followers simply choose not to be swayed by these forces? Why don’t they just take the good bits – the special powers – but stay focused and united in their goals? Because once Chaos has its claws in them, they have no choice. Once an individual has let Chaos take hold of them, their thoughts and emotions begin to resonate and amplify in harmony with the great powers. Other ways of seeing events wither in their perception. The manifest powers of Chaos become a release that can only be accessed by falling deeper into their embrace. Characters fall to Chaos, but they spiral as they fall. They try to escape, but their every choice now only takes them deeper. There is no way out for Horus and those that follow him, they are slaves and doomed through their own choices to fall apart and on each other with murder and treachery.

Once Chaos has hold of a mortal it enables the emotions that drove it into its arms, and feeds them in turn, so that they grow all-consuming and circular. Resentment becomes rage, becomes violence. Pride becomes arrogance. Knowledge becomes blindness to truth. And even if the soul that has fallen fights their fate, they still fall. To fall to Chaos is not to bow to the Chaos Gods, in fact it does not require that you even know that the Dark Gods exist. To rephrase the words hissed by the daemon Samos in the first Horus Heresy novel, Horus Rising: ‘Chaos all around you… It is the person beside you… It is you…’ The elemental power of the Chaos gods comes from the emotions of all sentient beings. Khorne does not exist because people worship it as a god of blood and war; Khorne exists because sentient creatures feel anger and rage, and want to destroy and kill and see their enemies broken. It does not matter to Tzeentch if a mortal who plots for power or hungers for knowledge does so in its name. The emotion and thought is enough to keep the cyclone turning.

That is what Chaos is, it is every weakness given power and set loose against itself without beginning and without end. That is the path that Horus, Lorgar and the first heretics set themselves on when they embraced Chaos. That is, if you like, the point of this book – to show that Horus and those that led him and followed him into darkness have become slaves to forces that they cannot control, bound by the chains of their own natures.





See as much as I like the Forces of Chaos, that makes the Marines that chose to follow it sound all the more like blithering idiots. Particularly those Traitors that weren't Slaves to Darkness at first but eventually became them. Because before they accepted the embrace of Chaos they were watching those that had crumble and fall to madness. Heck that makes all the Marines that fell after even stupider than them, because they had fought them and seen what had become of them.


Your problem is to see falling to "Chaos" as a choice. Living beings are driven by emotions, and chaos predates in those emotions. All kind of authors have written chaos and his corruption in a ton of different ways but the most common one is not a "OK I'LL ACCEPT CHAOS GIVE ME POWER!" but a gradual and most of the time even passive corruption. When a guy reachs the point to "accept chaos" he has already fallen.
Many other times they fall by trickery, like sick people falling for Nurgle in hope of a cure or just to their pain to end. And in some way, theyll receive that, but like a Monkey Pawn, always with a drawback.

And as others have pointed out, in that quote, it does not mean that chaos marines are "weaker" In power. Quite the contrary. By pure strenght we can see that normally Chaos marines are more powerfull. Just compare chaos primarchs to normal primarchs.


Cronch wrote:
 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Cronch wrote:
But that was always the case with Chaos, from WFB through 40k to Age of Sigmar?

No. Chaos warriors in WFB were really a whole level above normal human troops, and even the mere marauders were stronger than empire swordsmen. Chaos was a huge power boost, at the cost of your soul. Liked it much better that way.

They were individually stronger physically, but pretty much every story underscored that they lacked cohesion and often acted irrational, which is how the weaker, but sane races managed to stave off the End Times till Archaon, the Chaos Jesus who spends most of time telling Chaos he doesn't even like it, managed to literally kick every chaos warlord in one direction. Chaos does make you weaker as a person, even if it does provide temporary boost to your physical prowess.


Not only that, but I remember, and very well as a Chaos Warriors player in Fantasy, that once a Chaos Warrior was clad in his Chaos-dwarven forged Plate, he couldn't take it off. Is not like they would want to do it, of course. A Chaos Warrior in full chaos plate doesnt need to drink, eat or sleep. They are just moved by their desire to conquer and destroy. But only a tiny tiny fraction of chaos barbarians and followers gained a Chaos plate.
Also, Barbarians werent like cultists in 40k. I loved the 6th edition Hordes of Chaos book because you could see how Norscan were their own culture with their traditions. For them, the Chaos Gods were just gods, with many different names, and only part of a greater pantheon. They adapted to an enviroment were the warp was much stronger than in the south. They didn't sold their souls for the Chaos Gods, only the most devoted did.


Spoiler:
Cronch wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
The Imperium does it in the name of survival.

It's horrific by modern standards, necessary according to The High Lords.

The Tau do it in the name of expansion and conquest.

Except the tau don't. Tau don't exterminate it's own citizens, Tau don't abandon their own citizens, and Tau care about the well being of their own citizens, and even their client races to a large extent. I can think of one instance of Tau forces going overboard against human opposition, and they got quickly slapped on the wrist by the Ethereal caste for acting too much like their human enemies. So no, they don't "do it". Imperium is just as bad as chaos when it comes to treating human life, and even eldar, who largely leave humanity alone, are less of a threat to your average human than the Imperium.
The Imperium was always written as the bad guys, from the start.
In fact, the mere continued existence of Tau proves the point that Imperium is wrong in all aspects. Despite being faced with older, meaner, and generally evil-acting races (except for Eldar, who just do eldar things), Tau expand and prosper, without resorting to all the things that Imperium resorts to (which, let's not forget, are also largely against Emperor's vision for humanity back before he became a chair).


Tau are in some way very similar to the Roman Empire. They bring you culture and advancement, and if you join voluntarely, the better. But they won't hesitate to conquer you. Of course, the fact that they try diplomacy and peacefull ways first puts them above literally everything else in 40k. And once you are part of the Empire, you can keep your customs and traditions as long as you work as part of the auxiliary of the great Empire army. You could choose to add parts of Tau culture in your own, to gain rights as a citizen. It is not obligatory, but many will do it because it beneffits them over time.
And , as much as Imperial apologyst try to paint Tau as some kind of communist distopia (Ignoring that the Tau Empire is literally Plato's Republic in action), in every kind of media, be it books , campaings or Codex, tau centric or not, is always pointed out how living in a normal Tau world is just much better than an Imperial one .That doesn't mean they don't do bad things. They do, but, eeeeh... the scale of their evilness is greately exaggerated for internet histeria.
Heck, even Farsight, the rebel of the Tau society is less of a rebel because Tau are evil and more because he wants more of a free society.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/11/11 14:13:41


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
 
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