Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 lindsay40k wrote:
We can all stop worrying about Conscript spam, Comissars have been nerfed to Lb buff + morale reroll.

I heard, and it's awesome! Now Conscripts are just cheaper Cultists without weapon options. I think they'll still be around, they just won't be nearly as obnoxious or ubiquitous.

Daemon Outriders are excellent support for World Eaters - the DTW support will be good, Flesh Hounds are a good unit that used to be great (10W and 15 S5 attacks is pretty decent for a minimum size unit), and the Herald can ride with a Juggerlord behind a Rhino full of Possessed and give them all a S buff.

It’s a shame Karanak lost his buff ability, you’d think he did something to his pack.

Bloodletters... eh. T3 on a melee unit that can’t teleport or ride in anything. They’re for Summoning when defending against Astartes in Narrative games.

 lindsay40k wrote:

Mr.Pengwinn wrote:
Is summoning viable at all? I've been looking to start a new army and had been look at the various chaos factions for awhile now. Summoning is my jam in most games I play, but I seem to recall their being some issues with it in 8th. Can summoning work? I see Word Bearers have a summoning stratagem. Can I do dumb stuff like deepstriking a Sorc and have him summon a Bloodthirster?

Summoning is probably OP in Open & Narrative Play (definitely OP if you’re defending anything), in Matched Play it’s... eh, a gimmick. You can see it as a flexible sideboard of unspent points, but every unit you Summon means another character forfeited their movement phase; losing move>summon has hurt hard. Best utility is for a firebase, bulwarking your screen where it’s weakened or bringing the appropriate unit to deal with the enemy’s big push, and reducing your number of units to deploy. BUT this also means fewer models on the board at the start, losing whatever Detachment bonuses Daemons end up getting, and it’s not much use for a rushdown. Can be handy if you don’t want enough Daemons to make a Detachment but don’t want to lose Legion traits.

(snip)

It’s all very gimmicky and reliant on a second half push playing catch up with your first turn paradrops and gunners. I’m hoping that the Hellblade ploy will be a cheap enough buy-in that the whole business is viable, as I really do want to use my Legion Stratagem.

Firstly, thanks for taking the time to pen that post, I'm a fellow Word Bearers player who really used to love daemons (granted, we're talking back in the 3.5dex that everyone else hated). When our codex dropped with the stratagem and the summoning rules, I was very keen to give them a go, and found them completely underwhelming. I'm considering leaving the daemons at home unless I have the points to build a full detachment without compromising any of the mainstream CSM choices I want to take. I agree that likely the only viable way to get the daemons on the table is by deep-striking in a character with a guardian unit, but of course you're committing a lot of points to that strategy and if it works... what are the daemons going to kill in your opponents back field?

I'm especially torn because the only way I can take daemons outside of a seperate detachment without throwing away the legion bonus for being a CSM army is by summoning.

I'm really hopeful that the daemon 'dex will allow them to arrive from reserve if they're bought in your army list like any other unit - I don't mind not being able to choose with daemons get summoned as I roll the dice, I just want to be able to use them as summoned forces and not have them ruin my legion benefits!

 Raichase wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:

Mr.Pengwinn wrote:
Is summoning viable at all? I've been looking to start a new army and had been look at the various chaos factions for awhile now. Summoning is my jam in most games I play, but I seem to recall their being some issues with it in 8th. Can summoning work? I see Word Bearers have a summoning stratagem. Can I do dumb stuff like deepstriking a Sorc and have him summon a Bloodthirster?

Summoning is probably OP in Open & Narrative Play (definitely OP if you’re defending anything), in Matched Play it’s... eh, a gimmick. You can see it as a flexible sideboard of unspent points, but every unit you Summon means another character forfeited their movement phase; losing move>summon has hurt hard. Best utility is for a firebase, bulwarking your screen where it’s weakened or bringing the appropriate unit to deal with the enemy’s big push, and reducing your number of units to deploy. BUT this also means fewer models on the board at the start, losing whatever Detachment bonuses Daemons end up getting, and it’s not much use for a rushdown. Can be handy if you don’t want enough Daemons to make a Detachment but don’t want to lose Legion traits.

(snip)

It’s all very gimmicky and reliant on a second half push playing catch up with your first turn paradrops and gunners. I’m hoping that the Hellblade ploy will be a cheap enough buy-in that the whole business is viable, as I really do want to use my Legion Stratagem.

Firstly, thanks for taking the time to pen that post, I'm a fellow Word Bearers player who really used to love daemons (granted, we're talking back in the 3.5dex that everyone else hated). When our codex dropped with the stratagem and the summoning rules, I was very keen to give them a go, and found them completely underwhelming. I'm considering leaving the daemons at home unless I have the points to build a full detachment without compromising any of the mainstream CSM choices I want to take. I agree that likely the only viable way to get the daemons on the table is by deep-striking in a character with a guardian unit, but of course you're committing a lot of points to that strategy and if it works... what are the daemons going to kill in your opponents back field?

I'm especially torn because the only way I can take daemons outside of a seperate detachment without throwing away the legion bonus for being a CSM army is by summoning.

I'm really hopeful that the daemon 'dex will allow them to arrive from reserve if they're bought in your army list like any other unit - I don't mind not being able to choose with daemons get summoned as I roll the dice, I just want to be able to use them as summoned forces and not have them ruin my legion benefits!

So, great points about an entirely underused mechanic.

I played around with summoning at the start of 8th and found it to be inferior to deep striking. With deep strike, you don't need to worry about rolling, you don't need to worry about how many points of models you can bring on, you don't need to skip movement for the summoner, etc. All that, plus the question of what they are actually going to kill, made it hard for me to continue doing it.

I'd like to get back to summoning, tho. Where I did find it to be useful is in combination with bikers. Didn't get many chances to test this tactic, but I'd have 2 squads of bikers and a CL, he would summon Bloodletters, and now my bikers were free to sit there and shoot stuff without the threat of being charged. I used it with Abaddon once (since his shooting doesn't add much) to bring on 20 Bloodletters, his reroll aura makes them nasty.

@techsoldaten - Abaddon’s re-roll aura is for BLACK LEGION only, Bloodletter won’t ever benefit from it.

Only useful Summon I’ve done was some Plageubearers to fill a gap in my screen, and a few Heralds to cast spells. I usually take a Battalion with Nurglings and an Outriders with Karanak. I’ll add Horrors when they get PL balancing when Splitting. I do think that Summoning helps a firebase, but it’s not really viable for rushdown.

Actually, Horrors are ridiculous. There’s a reason nobody bothers with pinkies, isn’t there? You need to bring a unit’s worth of Reinforcement Points, which means you have less stuff in play than your opponent, and if your opponent just avoids the pinkies then you don’t get to use those points, and if you say h*ck it and use them for Summoning, your opponent can then shoot up the pinkies without fear of them splitting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Correction: 80pts of Pink Horrors’ kids and grandkids cost 160pts.

That’s just ridiculous for a secondary cost to pay for an ability that might not even be used.

Running Black Legion and I want a couple of Squads of each type of Cult Marine.

Noise marines and Berzerkers are pretty simple but what's the best way to set up Rubrics and Plague Marines now they have fancy options?

Assume I have two squads of 10 for each.

 lindsay40k wrote:
@techsoldaten - Abaddon’s re-roll aura is for BLACK LEGION only, Bloodletter won’t ever benefit from it.

Yeah, I know that now. Didn't really have the rules down in the early days of 8th.

The point remains, dropping a screen in front of bikers can be useful. How useful, I'm not sure, but it's nice to be able to ride up with a couple plasma guns and know you are not going to be immediately charged.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Loopstah wrote:
Running Black Legion and I want a couple of Squads of each type of Cult Marine.

Noise marines and Berzerkers are pretty simple but what's the best way to set up Rubrics and Plague Marines now they have fancy options?

Assume I have two squads of 10 for each.

Rubrics - eh... they like to be within 24 inches. I had a hard time making that work with rerolls. Moving them up in a Rhino, disembarking, having Abaddon DS to give them rerolls, it's a lot of moving parts for something that costs as much as they do. Hard to fit more than 2 squads into a 2,000 point list.

Plague Marines - fine option.

Don't bother bringing Rubric Marines with Bolters. They're just terrible. Consider them ablative wounds for your Warpflamers and Soulreaper cannons.

2x5 Rubrics marines (3 Warpflamers, 1 Bolter, Aspiring Sorc) in a Rhino might be worth it.

5 Rubrics with a Soulreaper cannon are also average at 18" and above average at 12". Beyond 18" they're really bad.

I love the idea of bolter Rubrics and their mathhammer damage is really solid. The issue is that they are slow and can't project their damage nearly as well as other shooty CSM units like Noise Marines. Both units probably need to take transports anyway but maybe an argument can be made for the NMs to footslog. I think if bolter Rubrics were 1 or 2 points less they'd be seriously good.

saint_red wrote:
I love the idea of bolter Rubrics and their mathhammer damage is really solid.

Actually, it's not solid at all.

Noise marines (with Sonic blasters) outdamage Rubric marines (with Inferno Bolters) at all range except under 12", and even there, it's conditional. If the target is in cover Noise marines have the advantage. And as you said, Noise marines don't *need* a Rhino, contrary to Rubrics.

Rubric marines (with Inferno Bolters) are only good at one thing : tanking D1 weapons. If you want to deal damage with Rubrics, you need Warpflamers or Soulreapers (limited to 1 per 5 RM unfortunately).

Maths for those interested :

RM vs MEQ at 24" : 1 shot, 0.66 hit, 0.33 wound, 0.22 unsaved = 0.011 damage / point
RM vs MEQ at 12" : 2 shots, 1.33 hits, 0.66 wound, 0.44 unsaved = 0.022 damage / point

NM vs MEQ at all ranges : 3 shots, 2 hits, 1 wound, 0.33 unsaved = 0.0175 damage / point

RM vs Orks at 24" : 1 shot, 0.66 hit, 0.33 wound, 0.33 unsaved = 0.0166 damage / point
RM vs Orks at 12" : 2 shots, 1.33 hits, 0.66 wound, 0.66 unsaved = 0.033 damage / point

NM vs Orks at all ranges : 3 shots, 2 hits, 1 wound, 0.833 unsaved = 0.044 damage / point

Against GEQ RM average 0.022 / 0.044 dmg / pt and Noise marines 0.047.

Yeah, I’m working to a similar ‘twenty of everything’ plan with my Cult Marines, and my Rubricae are going to be one squad of ten with Flamers and one rifles, both in Rhinos. One acts as a counter to hordes and deepstikers, the other drives over to an objective in a ruin and sits on it whilst the rest of the army keeps it safe from Dnot1 attacks.

Plague Marines, I’m not certain. One squad will be shooty, boltguns and Blight Launchers. (DG will get Plasma, but WB have less synergy.) The other, probably Plague Spewers and the melee gear? Melta feels a bit better, but I’d like to employ their unique weapon. Probably put both in a Rhino - their ranges and movement aren’t ideal for a Dreadclaw or Kharybdis, with T5 & DR they seem best suited to take & hold a forwards objective.

 Nym wrote:

saint_red wrote:
I love the idea of bolter Rubrics and their mathhammer damage is really solid.

Actually, it's not solid at all.

Noise marines (with Sonic blasters) outdamage Rubric marines (with Inferno Bolters) at all range except under 12", and even there, it's conditional. If the target is in cover Noise marines have the advantage. And as you said, Noise marines don't *need* a Rhino, contrary to Rubrics.

Rubric marines (with Inferno Bolters) are only good at one thing : tanking D1 weapons. If you want to deal damage with Rubrics, you need Warpflamers or Soulreapers (limited to 1 per 5 RM unfortunately).

Maths for those interested :

RM vs MEQ at 24" : 1 shot, 0.66 hit, 0.33 wound, 0.22 unsaved = 0.011 damage / point
RM vs MEQ at 12" : 2 shots, 1.33 hits, 0.66 wound, 0.44 unsaved = 0.022 damage / point

NM vs MEQ at all ranges : 3 shots, 2 hits, 1 wound, 0.33 unsaved = 0.0175 damage / point

RM vs Orks at 24" : 1 shot, 0.66 hit, 0.33 wound, 0.33 unsaved = 0.0166 damage / point
RM vs Orks at 12" : 2 shots, 1.33 hits, 0.66 wound, 0.66 unsaved = 0.033 damage / point

NM vs Orks at all ranges : 3 shots, 2 hits, 1 wound, 0.833 unsaved = 0.044 damage / point

Against GEQ RM average 0.022 / 0.044 dmg / pt and Noise marines 0.047.

Actually, that maths proves exactly what I said. Rubrics outclass NMs against MEQs in rapid fire range. They are more than 25% better per point.

Against TEQs the Rubrics do *double* the damage of NMs in rapid fire range, which equates to about 85% more damage per point.

If you take Rubrics you need to get them within 12" and make sure they are going after targets that they are good at dealing with. If you are hunting guardsmen or orks with them then you are doing it wrong. Remember that with VotLW you can hunt tanks and other high toughness 2+/3+ models with good results.

Rubrics might get more kills on MEQs at close range, but the NMs then do an Endless Cacophony and wreck another unit, without having to get within range of the vanguard veterans hiding behind the wall.

If I’m hunting Terminators and getting up close and personal, I can’t help but feel that our own Terminators are more efficient than RM. Combi Plasma and LC or CF, or Warpflame Combi Bolters and PS.

Rubric riflemen feel like something you put in a ruin and get into firefights. Deploy them in a Rhino, then castle up somewhere with little D2 firepower.

NMs might do an Endless Cacophony and wreck another unit, but then they get shot off the board and lose firepower. The Rubrics get shot at, absorb the firepower, negate it through the power of laughter, then continue firing.

 lindsay40k wrote:
Rubrics might get more kills on MEQs at close range, but the NMs then do an Endless Cacophony and wreck another unit, without having to get within range of the vanguard veterans hiding behind the wall.

If I’m hunting Terminators and getting up close and personal, I can’t help but feel that our own Terminators are more efficient than RM. Combi Plasma and LC or CF, or Warpflame Combi Bolters and PS.

Rubric riflemen feel like something you put in a ruin and get into firefights. Deploy them in a Rhino, then castle up somewhere with little D2 firepower.

Endless Cacophony is 2CP though to use. You really need to take the limited resources into consideration.

saint_red wrote:
Actually, that maths proves exactly what I said.

Hmm no. The maths prove that Inferno bolters utterly suck. They get outdamaged by a unit that's not supposed to be good against MEQ/TEQ at all ranges except 12", which requires a Rhino. If you factor the Rhino in their cost, the Inferno bolters RM performance is abysmal. They're only 40% better than Noise marines against TEQ.

If you want damage from Rubrics marines, take Warpflamers. The range difference is only 4", they still need a Rhino to do anything, but their damage output is 59% greater (vs Inferno bolters) against MEQ, TEQ, GEQ or Orks AND they get to Overwatch with their full damage.

This, is solid damage.

saint_red wrote:
I love the idea of bolter Rubrics and their mathhammer damage is really solid. The issue is that they are slow and can't project their damage nearly as well as other shooty CSM units like Noise Marines.

Seems like it's exactly what I said.

Their damage is good; their projection is not. Of course Rapid Fire weapons aren't as effective outside Rapid Fire range, not sure what your point is there.

Moving on, any further thoughts on the best walkers? I have got my hands on a Decimator that I've been using with a flamer claw + storm laser and I've been really impressed. Having the Daemon keyword opens up Daemonforge and you can make them Tzeentch to benefit from the Changeling. They seem like a clear upgrade over Contemptors and Helbrutes to me.

I'll have to disagree there.
Bolter rubrics are great.

Not so much due to firepower, as stated the noise boys outgun then
But the fact that unlike noise boys, they can take a serius beating.

Damage output is not just how much you can do per shooting phase, but how many shooting phases you can get. Rubrics get more.
Plus, they are really good meatshields for the brutal soulreaper


In all my 8th games so far, the only time my rubrics failed me was against a slannesh daemon army. (I was NOT prepared for that FW keeper of secret character monster thing)



As for walkers, I found scourge+twinheavybolter to be very effective.
Cheap enough to just throw forward, hits hard enough in CC to get the job done, and throws enough shooting dice that it gets some hits while moving.
Would like to try a decimator though.

Yeah. I’ve got a couple of Contemptors that I rarely mothball in favor of Helbrutes, but the Decimator is the one that really looks lit. Two Soulburner Petards with a Lord providing rerolls might just be my answer to a local FW arms race.

Changeling aura or boosting Epidemius looks like great synergy.

All that said, I’m finding Butcher Cannon to be a nice way to force the enemy to burn 2CP to keep some heavy weapons in play, and when mounted on a Deredeo the 5++ aura could do some serious lifting. Cultists become nearly as tough as when hiding in cover in 7ed, high AP anti-tank weapons get nerfed. I’d probably prioritise an endurance spell on it as that sort of thing is a big fire magnet.

Try out a soulburner on the decimator some time, it is worth the price tag. I think Decimators are up there with Leviathans for usefulness. Plop prescience on a soulburner decimator and lay out the damage. 10" move and assault weapons make up for the short range.

Just won a local tournament with decimators with soulburners and claws as the focus. They are very points effecient, good in all phases and don't degrade. Can't recommend them enough.

With the price increase they got in the FAQ I was thinking that the Soulburners weren't going to be worth their points, but I'll have to re-jig my list a bit and try one out.

I only have the DV Helbrute so I am thinking at some point I'll buy a proper one and try it with fist + scourge or maybe HBs + scourge. I think the best way of using our walkers is to keep them versatile so they'll be a threat to lots of units, so I do like the idea of the heavy bolters. The Decimator is probably a bit better though because it has access to assault weapons which is really good for running Renegades with the advance, shoot and charge you can pull off.

buddha, how many Decimators did you have in your list? I can see myself running another one, but probably not more than that.

Gonna agree on the decimators with petards. They are a direct answer to Magnus and Mortarion and anything else that relies on saves or high toughness. They’re only a little more survivable than a helbrute but stand much taller, so it’s hard to keep them alive if your opponent knows what they can do.

I usually run some big flashy thing like a Lord of Skulls to stomp around and draw all the fire while a couple Decimators stroll behind him and do all the real work.

saint_red wrote:
With the price increase they got in the FAQ I was thinking that the Soulburners weren't going to be worth their points, but I'll have to re-jig my list a bit and try one out.

I only have the DV Helbrute so I am thinking at some point I'll buy a proper one and try it with fist + scourge or maybe HBs + scourge. I think the best way of using our walkers is to keep them versatile so they'll be a threat to lots of units, so I do like the idea of the heavy bolters. The Decimator is probably a bit better though because it has access to assault weapons which is really good for running Renegades with the advance, shoot and charge you can pull off.

buddha, how many Decimators did you have in your list? I can see myself running another one, but probably not more than that.

I ran two but I had target saturation with other demon engines and demon princes. Even for the players who understood the danger they are survivable thanks to the demon save and infernal regeneration. Wasn't a game they didn't survive at least two or more turns.

Hello all,

So just getting back into the game, today I picked up the CSM codex (to go with my Death Guard).

Reading through it, I like a lot of the stuff!

That said, do ya'll find mixing detachments (like 1 DG detachment/1 CSM detachment) to work better or focus on a single dex? Also, which legion do you find works best for you? Alpha Legions -1 to hit seems pretty nice, especially with all the heavy shooting armies, or Renegade Legions for the Advance + Charge. I was thinking of taking a Hammer and Anvil approach; DG Detachment focused solely on holding down objectives and being hard to move, with CSM backing them up with Havoks and vehicles.

Also, Forgefiends; yey or nay? I really love the model, and he seems like he can put out a lot of hurt.

Easier to focus on a specific codex. Death Guard doesn't have much I would want to run sorta like with Thousand Sons.

 Zid wrote:
Hello all,

So just getting back into the game, today I picked up the CSM codex (to go with my Death Guard).

Reading through it, I like a lot of the stuff!

That said, do ya'll find mixing detachments (like 1 DG detachment/1 CSM detachment) to work better or focus on a single dex? Also, which legion do you find works best for you? Alpha Legions -1 to hit seems pretty nice, especially with all the heavy shooting armies, or Renegade Legions for the Advance + Charge. I was thinking of taking a Hammer and Anvil approach; DG Detachment focused solely on holding down objectives and being hard to move, with CSM backing them up with Havoks and vehicles.

Also, Forgefiends; yey or nay? I really love the model, and he seems like he can put out a lot of hurt.

Multiple Detachments is very good. More CPs. More Strategems. More relics.

^ bear in mind Relics are unlocked by your Warlord, of which you only get one. If you want more Relics, you use a Strategem to unlock them - and they’re only coming out of the Warlord’s Codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Multiple detachments works great, I’m mainly inclined to recommend an AL-DG-Daemons coalition, though really the best thing is to collect what you like the look of and think you.l enjoy leading into battle in future editions, rather than ‘whoa, in this current rules set they’re really powerful’.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Experimental list I’m ruminating on:

200 PL, 12 CP, 12 RP’s

DEATH GUARD OUTRIDERS
Typhus: Blades of Putrefaction, Putrescent Vitality
10 Poxwalkers
Tallyman
Bloat-drone
Blight-hauler
Blight-hauler

CHAOS DAEMONS BATTALION
Herald of Nurgle: Fleshy Abundance
Epidemius
10 Plaguebearers
3 Nurglings
3 Nurglings

WORD BEARERS SPEARHEAD
Warpsmith: Combi-flamer
Maulerfiend of Nurgle: Magma Cutters
Maulerfiend of Nurgle: Lasher Tendrils
Forgefiend of Nurgle: three Ectoplasma Cannon
Forgefiend of Nurgle: Hades Autocannons, Ectoplasma Cannon
Heldrake Of Nurgle: Baleflamer

WORD BEARERS OUTRIDERS
Sorcerer with Jump Pack: Prescience, Warptime, Force Sword, Combi-Plasma
1 Spawn of Nurgle
10 Warp Talons of Nurgle
5 Raptors of Nurgle: 2 Plasma, Combi-Plasma, Power Fist, Icon of Despair

WORD BEARERS BATTALION
Sorcerer on Palanquin: Miasma Of Pestilence, Death Hex
Daemon Prince of Nurgle: Wings, Sword, Diabolic Strength, appropriate Warlord Trait - probably Voice of Lorgar
20 Cultists
20 Cultists
10 Cultists
10 Possessed Of Nurgle: Icon of Despair
Obliterators of Nurgle
Rhino: Havoc Launcher

It uses the models I have and want to use, and is based on three ploys:
- Poxwalkers advance behind Cultists, use stratagems to avoid fire and grow to a tidal wave, Typhus joins in when they make contact and gives them lots of buffs plus their hit bonuses from size and Tallyman
- Almost everything else feeds and is buffed by Epidemius
- Sorcerer and paratroops jump in on first turn, Summon GUO second turn

It’s a gimmicky fluff list that’ll be used for casual games.

Could potentially drop GUO Summoning gimmick for Mutilators and a Dark Apostle for +1CP.

I was under the Impression you can get your Free relic from the Warlords detachment, and then if you have a second detachment (Like Death Guard and CSM) you can use Gifts of Decay, or Gifts of Chaos respectively to take another relic.

From the DG FAQ:

Q: If my army is led by a Chaos Space Marines Warlord, and
I have a Detachment of Death Guard, can I use the Gifts of
Decay Death Guard Stratagem to include a Relic on a Death
Guard Character?
A: Yes. The only requirement to have access to
Stratagems is that you have a Detachment of the
appropriate Faction. If you have a Death Guard
Detachment, you have access to their Stratagems


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, another useful point to Multiple detachments is different sets of Tactical Objective cards to choose from. The Death Guard ones are terrible. The CSM ones are at least playable.

That’s a neat trick with the Relics. Might be FAQ’d away, though.

The Tactical Objectives are specifically locked to your Warlord’s Codex, no cherry picking there I’m afraid.