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Don't ask me why but lastnight I had a Warhammer related dream. Now bare with me I know this sounds a little like some of those anime shows that seem to be popping up but I prefer to think of this more like the hologram game from Star Wars.

I went to a gaming store to play but I didn't have any army cases with me just dice and some memory chips. I got to the store and found someone to play against. We went to a table that was blank it had no terrain on it. When we decided on the terrain style it appeared as a holographic image on the table. Then we put our chosen chip (one chip carried one army) into a slot in the table and our armies appeared as holograms. There was also a holographic rules referance that could be displayed that would also rule on controversial situations.

As we played it was great, we didn't have to worry about where we rolled the dice because if they hit the "models" they passed right through. They coulden't fall off the table and be broken, coulden't be stolen. They where fully animated and voice controled and where just as customisable as current armies it just took some knowledge of a computer program and then downloading them to the army disks.

That particular game was for WHFB and it was pretty cool to see my Beastmen charging into a Imperial gunline. The beastmen roared and charged when I declared for them to but I had to roll and you could see puffs of smoke from the handguns as my opponent chose to stand and shoot. You still had to roll dice for everything it was just scanned by the tables computer and the results displayed with the holograms.

I know it's just a dream and probably won't happen but what do you guys think? could this be the future of wargaming?

Have you seen the Microsoft touch game tables, with Settlers of Catan? Youtube it - it's awesome.

Something similar to what you dreamt is certainly a possiblity. I'm not quite sure about the precise details in regards to the "roaring Beastmen", a la Star Wars chess, but everything else sounds good. They just need to take the technology from current glasses-free 3D devices (the upcoming TV, the 3DS) and employ it for gaming tables.

Also I doubt you'd bring your own chip in: they wouldn't make it that simple .

Your army would probably be tied to an online Games Workshop account that you log into every time you play on the holo-table, and it would track your win/loss record. It would also probably have a monthly/annual subscription fee with upgrade options for "advanced tracking", AND they would probably micro-transaction out all of your wargear, and "models": which means MANY more updates because of the ease of distribution, which, unfortunately, would mean even less game balancing in favor of selling more digital models. It's a much smarter business model, and follows suit with Xbox Live or the PSN.

The more I talk about it, the more I want to pioneer it! It's the long lost connection between the digital age, and the slowly declining tabletop enthusiast generation.

Things are headed that way some day.

The Microsoft gaming table that Magnalon referenced is Microsoft Surface. Which is an excellent step in the right direction. I was at PAX this year (Penny Arcade Expo. The guys from Geek Chik had a special surface table set up with RFID chips imbedded in the bases of Privateer Press minis. The table showed the range of movement for them, their abilities and others stats from drop down menu'ss that popped out of the figs. It was very impressive. It was a nice mix of real figures and playing, with virtual support.

But where would the modeling factor go? Think maybe you could create or customize objects on a computer maybe, because my favorite part is the building and painting.

Paint/customize a model.

Scan an object you paint, it gets replicated in the memory chip.

Give it the corresponding set of rules, and let it run wild.

Well, I think there's 3 problems with this:

1) You'll alienate the players who go more for the modeling side than the gaming side. Painting and shaping an actual model has more appeal than doing some graphic design work. So, 40k and WHFB will, sadly, become much more of a board game than a hobby.

2) Dice are going to be the first thing to go. Even in games now, I'm seeing more and more people using software to simulate large rolls (at least in situations where everyone trusts each other )

3) Once this happens, your FLGS is going to disappear very quickly. Their sales will be seriously hurt, as you'll just purchase things by downloading it direct from GW and won't need a 3rd party retailer. Add to that fact that this would make online wargamming 100% feasible (rather than the 2d Vassal gaming), and you'll quickly find stores closing down. Even your brick and mortar GW stores may be considered redundant. It'll be a rather sad day.

I don't see how expanding into another market means you have to shutdown your old ones. Did GW stop producing models when the DoW series had it's successes? No, These things are not mutualy exclusive.

Grakmar wrote:
1) You'll alienate the players who go more for the modeling side than the gaming side.

I will do no such thing it's just a dream. And also this version of the game would probably be highly expensive so GW would still maintain actual modeling and such for those who can't afford it.

2) Dice are going to be the first thing to go. Even in games now, I'm seeing more and more people using software to simulate large rolls (at least in situations where everyone trusts each other )

I've actually never seen anyone use anything but dice.

3) Once this happens, your FLGS is going to disappear very quickly. Their sales will be seriously hurt, as you'll just purchase things by downloading it direct from GW and won't need a 3rd party retailer. Add to that fact that this would make online wargamming 100% feasible (rather than the 2d Vassal gaming), and you'll quickly find stores closing down. Even your brick and mortar GW stores may be considered redundant. It'll be a rather sad day.

While I'm not sure how you could do online wargaming when the main concept of this is playing with holographic armies on special designed tables? Also I doubt that FLGS would close for the simple fact that you would still need a place to buy the euiptment needed such as the chips, software for your computer etc. Also since you can't play holographic games online and buying a holographic table would be fairly expensive would mean you would have to go to a local gaming store to be able to play. And chances are you would be charged for table use (I've gone to a few stores that did just that).

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:
While I'm not sure how you could do online wargaming when the main concept of this is playing with holographic armies on special designed tables? Also I doubt that FLGS would close for the simple fact that you would still need a place to buy the euiptment needed such as the chips, software for your computer etc. Also since you can't play holographic games online and buying a holographic table would be fairly expensive would mean you would have to go to a local gaming store to be able to play. And chances are you would be charged for table use (I've gone to a few stores that did just that).

There will be a few years where this is feasible only in "arcades" and dedicated stores. But, once holographic technology is feasible at that level, it won't be too long before it is in the home market.

The transition from the non-gimmick 3D movies (Avatar really was the first commercially successful 3D movie) to 3D television is happening rather quickly. It won't be too much longer until it's in everyone's home. Maybe 3-4 years.

Don't worry, Table top war gaming wont lose out to 3D.

Want to know my secret knowledge?

Because it's already 3D al la Real and tangible and exists in a Three Dimensional World.

Now, if we some how were able to play in, say, 4 dimensions, that would be awesome, though I don't see how we would be able to play through time, as well as, space.

It would be awesome if it was shown realtime and every move you did had an effect on it like an actual war zone.

Who knows, things could turn out to be like that movie The Gamer except actually not using a person. Instead immersing a person into a virtual experience where they take the role of their armies general and command in any form they choose be it from the front lines of a Orc Waaagh to leading masses of aliens at the center of a Tyranid horde........heck that sound pretty good I think as a video game description

Grakmar wrote:

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:
While I'm not sure how you could do online wargaming when the main concept of this is playing with holographic armies on special designed tables? Also I doubt that FLGS would close for the simple fact that you would still need a place to buy the euiptment needed such as the chips, software for your computer etc. Also since you can't play holographic games online and buying a holographic table would be fairly expensive would mean you would have to go to a local gaming store to be able to play. And chances are you would be charged for table use (I've gone to a few stores that did just that).

There will be a few years where this is feasible only in "arcades" and dedicated stores. But, once holographic technology is feasible at that level, it won't be too long before it is in the home market.

The transition from the non-gimmick 3D movies (Avatar really was the first commercially successful 3D movie) to 3D television is happening rather quickly. It won't be too much longer until it's in everyone's home. Maybe 3-4 years.

3-4 years? You do know there's people who still don't even have cable, right?

Grakmar wrote:2) Dice are going to be the first thing to go. Even in games now, I'm seeing more and more people using software to simulate large rolls (at least in situations where everyone trusts each other )

The key phrase there is "... situations where everyone trusts each other." I just saw a discussion on this topic the other day on the Flames of War forum, and the concensus was that it's far too easy to cheat using this method. Due to their competitive nature, tournaments cannot afford to give up dice at this point in time. And unless you're playing your best buddy that you've known for the last ten years, you should stick with dice. Because sooner or later those rolls are going to start streaking. That's just what rolls do from time to time. And when that happens, you don't want your opponent starting to wonder to himself whether or not you're pulling a fast one.

3) Once this happens, your FLGS is going to disappear very quickly. Their sales will be seriously hurt, as you'll just purchase things by downloading it direct from GW and won't need a 3rd party retailer. Add to that fact that this would make online wargamming 100% feasible (rather than the 2d Vassal gaming), and you'll quickly find stores closing down. Even your brick and mortar GW stores may be considered redundant. It'll be a rather sad day.

If the stores die, then the miniature hobby dies - end of story. People play games due to -

- Impulse Buy "I saw it on the shelf and it looked neat"
- They see people playing the game "I don't know much about this game, but everyone else seems to like it."
- They have somewhere to play the game "But where are we going to get the free table space for our league to meet up for a round of games?"

A well-run FLGS provides all three of these, which is why FLGS are vital to the long-term survival of the hobby. Yes, it's true that some locations manage to get by without FLGS supporting them. But by and large you need the FLGS or the game eventually dies.

Eumerin wrote:

Grakmar wrote:2) Dice are going to be the first thing to go. Even in games now, I'm seeing more and more people using software to simulate large rolls (at least in situations where everyone trusts each other )

The key phrase there is "... situations where everyone trusts each other." I just saw a discussion on this topic the other day on the Flames of War forum, and the concensus was that it's far too easy to cheat using this method. Due to their competitive nature, tournaments cannot afford to give up dice at this point in time. And unless you're playing your best buddy that you've known for the last ten years, you should stick with dice. Because sooner or later those rolls are going to start streaking. That's just what rolls do from time to time. And when that happens, you don't want your opponent starting to wonder to himself whether or not you're pulling a fast one.

Currently, it certainly is easy to cheat by using an unfair dice rolling program. But, my point was that when the tabletops are themselves electronic, they will have a dice rolling program built in. The program will be run by the table itself, so cheating shouldn't be a problem. Once you have holographic tables, you won't be rolling dice any more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eumerin wrote:
If the stores die, then the miniature hobby dies - end of story. People play games due to -

- Impulse Buy "I saw it on the shelf and it looked neat"
- They see people playing the game "I don't know much about this game, but everyone else seems to like it."
- They have somewhere to play the game "But where are we going to get the free table space for our league to meet up for a round of games?"

A well-run FLGS provides all three of these, which is why FLGS are vital to the long-term survival of the hobby. Yes, it's true that some locations manage to get by without FLGS supporting them. But by and large you need the FLGS or the game eventually dies.

Yeah, that's my point. If/when holographic boards become standard in everyone's home, the FLGS will die. This, in turn, will kill the hobby. At that point, WH40k isn't any different from any other video game. I'm not in favor of this scenario, but I think if the OP's vision becomes reality, it will have some major drawbacks.