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I just want some advice, or comments and suggestions as far as this list is concerned. What do like/dislike? What changes do you think there should be? Etc.

2x Daemon Prince w/ Wings, MoS, Lash – 310
8 KB, Champ w/ PF in Rhino – 243
7 PM w/ 2 PG, Champ w/ PF in Rhino – 266
10 CSM, IoCG, 2 Melta Guns, Champ w/ PW in Rhino – 245
7 NM, 7 Soinic Blasters, Champ w/ PW and Doom Siren in Rhino -255
Pred w/ Lascannon Sponsons – 130
Defiler w/ Reaper Autocanon – 150
Vindicator w/ Possesion - 145

Change Princes to warptime instead of lash, much better then.

Change Noise Marines to normal CSM with dual meltaguns; ditch the Champion and power weap.

Drop the Predator and switch for 2 x Obliterators.

Switch the Defiler for a second Vindicator.

mercer wrote:Change Princes to warptime instead of lash, much better then.

Change Noise Marines to normal CSM with dual meltaguns; ditch the Champion and power weap.

Drop the Predator and switch for 2 x Obliterators.

Switch the Defiler for a second Vindicator.

Lash < Warptime is debateable. I say live and let live. Demon princes are easy and fragile targets, I would experiment with lashing sorcerors.

Oblits > Pred is very true especially in a lash list.

Defiler < Vindicator is IMO debateable. I know a lot of people poo poo the defiler but I like it, especially with lash (you can smoosh people from farther away with templates or you can draw them closer and fleet to assault them). I would probably say use one or the other, not a mix. Redendancy is a generally a good thing, the weapons that will be good against the defiler will be stretched with 2, but quite effective with 1.

OP, Your troops are an odd mixture. More power to you if you are going for an undivided type feel, but honestly PMs are best. Double special weapons and T5 FNP is pretty solid. There is a lot of fat that could be trimmed in the troops section to make this list much better.

Come on, you could totally get something Tzneetchian in there, have all 4 gods represented!

Change Princes to warptime instead of lash, much better then.

Change Noise Marines to normal CSM with dual meltaguns; ditch the Champion and power weap.

Drop the Predator and switch for 2 x Obliterators.

Switch the Defiler for a second Vindicator.

First off I want to thank you for your interest, and taking the time to write this. I would also like if you took your ideas and wrote a list to 1750 and let me see it with the changes you listed above.

Daemon Prince - wings, MoT & warptime

Daemon Prince - wings, MoT & warptime

7 x Plague Marines w/ Rhino - 2 x plasma guns

7 x Plague Marines w/ Rhino - 2 x meltaguns & Champion w/ power fist

10 x Chaos Space Marines w/ Rhino - 2 x meltaguns

10 x Chaos Space Marines w/ Rhino - 2 x meltaguns

2 x Obliterators

Chaos Vindicator

Chaos Vindicator

How is that an improvement?

How is it a improvement? Is that a serious general question? If so I'll tell you..

No Berzerkers in a Rhino which means those Berzerkers cannot assault out and have to wait. No expensive Noise Marines.

You've now got double monstrous creatures for target saturation, two units of tough troops thuogh you could make them all Plague Marines if you like. Obliterators are better than the Predator and Vindicators are better than Defilers as the unit doesn't conflict with itself.

So now I still have 2 MCs. My pie plates only have a 24" range. I only have 1 uniti w/ long range weapons. Only 2 dedicated CC units. I have only one special weapon in one squad.

Yes I have tons of redundency (which I already have), but no synergy or versitility, so no its not an improvement. Thanks for the atempt though.

It's actually a massive improvement on your list which has none of those thiings you said.

Firstly the Princes are built better, lash is old how can lash work on vehicles? All you're gonna do with lash is set things up for a single Vindicator and Defiler or to assault with the Prince or Berzerkers anyway. You want lash take Sorcerers.

Only two dedicated close combat units? Princes are close combat and CSM gets 3 attacks each on the charge, all CSM units are good in combat - they're not exactly dedicated but just as good as Berzerkers which cannot charge out of a Rhino.

Did you read the list right? There's 4 troops with DOUBLE special weapons; one special one in one squad...

You don't have any or much redundancy at all. You have a single long range Predator which I've replaced with much better Obliterators, so you only had one ranged unit anyway so I'm not sure what you're complaining about. You want crappy Defilers then switch with the Vindicators now you've got more range and still blasts and redundancy; what's the problem? If you want to talk about synergy look at your own list, power fist with plasma guns and power weapon with meltaguns - should be the other way round!

All you need to do with the list I suggested is switch Vindicators for Defilers. Still a better list than yours and more streamlined with synergy, something you haven't got right in your wargear choices.

Point A - The princes you have listed are VASTLY superior to my princes in CC. However they are only superior IN cc.

Point B - Everyone can assault and not assault out of a Rhino, just depends on if it moves, I'm not slowed.

Point C - My mistake, what I meant was 1 special CC weapon in 1 squad, eg the Power Fist. Sorry but most things that a power fist help take out, besides regular SM or whatever, are usually things that ignore every benifit the Plague Marines have going for them, eg Dreads, MCs, etc. If I want my PM to be in assault with anythings, it sure as hell isn't a Dread or MC.

Point D - Orginally I had MoS on my CSM, still debating it. However WTF would be the point of having a PW on an I3 model? They are gonna be striking last against alsmost anyone. And as far as to why I have Plasma Guns in the squad is because they aren't meant to assault anything! Thats what every other troop in the list is for. If anything they are a bait unit, one that I throw in someones face by double tapping with the plasma gun so that they have to deal with it. And while they hold up a unit for a round or two of combat, any other unit in my army can jump in for a turn as a counter assault.

Point E - One long range unit? Last time I checked, 72" was longer than 48". So really I have 2 long range choices. Also, Oblits are better? This is 100% debatable. IMO when i run a bunch of tanks in a list I like to run all tanks in a list. Having my only real fire base unit be an infantry unit, that can only fire up to 2 lascannons, and MAYBE move 6" a turn, not to mention cost more and can be taken out easier, does not sound like redundancy, but at this point I'm being redundant.

Now now, put the claws away ladies

However, Mercer is correct, it is vastly superior to spam Plague Marines with dual weapon rather than one from each god

Yes but berzerkers will be instantly recognized as CC threats and blasted as soon as the get out of the rhino, if and when plague marines do this, they have T5 and FnP to back them up.

I think you'll find CSM strike at I4 so the only thing that will strike faster is Eldar and equivilents.

And the whole point of CSM, much like BA, is to ram your army down their throat, you want to get as close as possible these days as your probbaly gonna face nothing but mech (barring tyranids of course.)

Mercer I'm afraid has made a significant improvement here.

ZepherZealot257 wrote:However, Mercer is correct, it is vastly superior to spam Plague Marines with dual weapon rather than one from each god
...

I think you'll find CSM strike at I4 so the only thing that will strike faster is Eldar and equivilents.

...

Mercer I'm afraid has made a significant improvement here.

I'm so relieved I'm not the only person who actually finds it distasteful to be agreeing with Mercer, but he's finally making some good points. Focusing on one or two points in an army is SO much better than being so-so in every way. Let me try it this way: An army that is just okay in close combat, against MCs, taking out tanks, dealing with the horde and targeting special characters has the potential to just be just okay army list at best. An army list that is superb at defending OR is the best at cc has the potential to be superb or the best.

In other words, a little of everything sucks.

When he was talking about I3, he means the PMs, not the CSM. I dont like to put PWs on my PMs either, they get PFs, regardless of whether they have melta or plasma.

Yes, I guess I have to agree. The changes are better. For what its worth I'll run this list tomorrow night at my local store, see how it does, and then tell you what I think. Thanks again for the attention, sorry if I like to (bleep)

If you like lash, try sorcerers. Here noise marines can work too, as they get the expensive but badass blastmaster, which combos well with lash.

personally I like your three heavy support choices being defiler, predator, and vindicator. I'm just picturing a whack of rhinos rushing forward with two daemons princes screwing up enemy positioning and a vindicator close behind dropping sick plates on them. Then far back in the distance you have a predator and defiler providing long range threat. And if anything gets up close to your predator to perhaps melta it, or fist it, etc, your defiler will be there to smack him in the face with a str 10 dreadnought arm.

only thing is yeah your troops seem a little scatter brained lol.

So i've run it a couple of times...got my @$$ handed to me by almost every army out there.

Then...I changed back to the original list, and guess what...didn't loose. So while I really do like the help you gave me, it turns out, whether its me or my list, that the original does better, at least in my hands. IDK. maybe in a tourney the revised list you gave me would do better. However in the group i'm in (which plays very hardcore, i mean i went up against mechdar, ork nob bikers, you name it) and the versitility of the original list just seemed to come out on top. I don't know why. Maybe sometimes its better to go against the flow.

Awesome dude cool to hear that.

hmmm, so the crappy, unfocused list did better than the refined, optimized list? Lash vs. mechdar did better than tzeench princes? Really?

You post a sub-par list asking for advice then attack the people giving advice to you. Your list is just not good at all. The list you were given is much more competative if you actually understand how to use it. Bad generalling does not make a bad list.

Mental note: Do not give advice to billy_joe.

ZepherZealot257 wrote:Now now, put the claws away ladies

However, Mercer is correct, it is vastly superior to spam Plague Marines with dual weapon rather than one from each god

Yes but berzerkers will be instantly recognized as CC threats and blasted as soon as the get out of the rhino, if and when plague marines do this, they have T5 and FnP to back them up.

I think you'll find CSM strike at I4 so the only thing that will strike faster is Eldar and equivilents.

And the whole point of CSM, much like BA, is to ram your army down their throat, you want to get as close as possible these days as your probbaly gonna face nothing but mech (barring tyranids of course.)

Mercer I'm afraid has made a significant improvement here.

Why thank-you Unfortunately explained all that already and OP didn't get it, glad someone else can it

Priesmal wrote:

I'm so relieved I'm not the only person who actually finds it distasteful to be agreeing with Mercer, but he's finally making some good points.
When he was talking about I3, he means the PMs, not the CSM. I dont like to put PWs on my PMs either, they get PFs, regardless of whether they have melta or plasma.

Aww that's not nice is it :( I always make good points!

And I didn't say stick power weapon on the Plague Marines which are I3, that would be pointless. I said remove power fist from the Plague Marines as plasma guns don't charge and remove the power weapon from the CSM because if meltas fail them power fist smacks the tank, if transport is popped then power fist still gets infantry.

Billie_Joe wrote:Yes, I guess I have to agree. The changes are better. For what its worth I'll run this list tomorrow night at my local store, see how it does, and then tell you what I think. Thanks again for the attention, sorry if I like to (bleep)

You should really listen to people instead of sounding off, especially when you asked for advice...you just need to open your eyes and see the light

Jabbdo wrote:If you like lash, try sorcerers. Here noise marines can work too, as they get the expensive but badass blastmaster, which combos well with lash.

Already said that about Sorcerers, OP ignored :(

Billie_Joe wrote:So i've run it a couple of times...got my @$$ handed to me by almost every army out there.

Then...I changed back to the original list, and guess what...didn't loose. So while I really do like the help you gave me, it turns out, whether its me or my list, that the original does better, at least in my hands. IDK. maybe in a tourney the revised list you gave me would do better. However in the group i'm in (which plays very hardcore, i mean i went up against mechdar, ork nob bikers, you name it) and the versitility of the original list just seemed to come out on top. I don't know why. Maybe sometimes its better to go against the flow.

As the below says, a bad general doesn't make a bad list. You lost because you're using a unfamiliar list and out your comfort zone. As said below, how exactly does lash of submission work against MechDar? If you're playing in a hardcore group then unfortunately your list is the odd one out.

Inigo Montoya wrote:hmmm, so the crappy, unfocused list did better than the refined, optimized list? Lash vs. mechdar did better than tzeench princes? Really?

You post a sub-par list asking for advice then attack the people giving advice to you. Your list is just not good at all. The list you were given is much more competative if you actually understand how to use it. Bad generalling does not make a bad list.

Mental note: Do not give advice to billy_joe.

I totally agree with this, especially the last part

Try the sorcerers if you must have lash.