Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 zedmeister wrote:

 xttz wrote:

Warlord with the default load out is 385 + 15 + 55 + 55 = 510. The volcano cannons are the most expensive arm option, so Warlords can be a bit cheaper than this.

Reavers are 250pts basic, weapons are 10-35pts each

Warhounds are 180pts with weapons for 10-30pts each

1,370. So an axiom maniple + knights is about 1500. For bigger, Epic scale games, you're looking at 3,000-4,000 points which, incidentally, were the points sizes for previous Epic games.

I think a 5 vs 5 match will be pretty sizeable TBH. the only other Maniple we've seen is one that consists of 2-3 Walords and 1-2 Revers. which looks like it might come out to about 1500 points. so I suspect GW's planning on games being about 1500 points. Just a hunch

On the Retailer copies front, my FLGS owner shared some stuff with me as originally I was going to purchase the GM set through them. He wasn't allowed to place an actual order for any AT stuff until Monday, despite going up for pre order on Saturday on GW Webstore. He beleives this was the case with all UK suppliers.

On Saturday morning, he received an email from GW to inform him that they had almost sold out of GM edition sets and he would not be able to order any on Monday to sell through his store. That's when he phoned around to everyone who was going to pe-order with him, to tell us if we want it, order it direct.

 Overread wrote:
We all pretty much know that if if sells well enough we will see Chaos titans appear. Sure they will likely round out the pure Imperial ones first, but Chaos is the most logical natural step forward

What I'll be curious on is if they include Chaos Demons. In the past - at least with Titan Legions - there were Chaos demons on the battlefield at titanic size.

IIRC the Primarchs and GDs were the size of a 28mm marine (which was smaller than today's marine). I can't remember any bigger ones.

Mendi Warrior wrote:
how is it that at 10:01 UK time the GME already appeared as unavailable? Was it then pre-sold? How is it possible to sell thousands of units in less than a minute without the website crashing (we read about another one where the website crashed at release time)?

Their site was absolutely still accepting purchases of the GME after 10:01. I have one timestamped minutes after that, and I'm sure they still had it listed as available at at least 10:06. For reference, two friends of mine have 10:01 timestamped sales that were subsequently offered this 'remedy'.

It comes back to the same thing, they were charging credit cards for stock they did not have. It's misrepresentation.

 TheSecretSquig wrote:
He beleives this was the case with all UK suppliers. .

It was not - we ordered last week and (apparently) are getting our full allotment.

A (UK) FLGS near me said on Facebook that he had to order all his GME copies before Saturday and had to buy based on what cash he had that day. He only managed to get less than 10 copies, but all should be arriving.

BrianDavion wrote:

I think a 5 vs 5 match will be pretty sizeable TBH. the only other Maniple we've seen is one that consists of 2-3 Walords and 1-2 Revers. which looks like it might come out to about 1500 points. so I suspect GW's planning on games being about 1500 points. Just a hunch

It does look like they've structured it roughly compared to 40k, so that a similar amount of points results in a similar length game. I think we'll see a typical game size gradually increase as more titans come out and people get the hang of the rules, but I'll be surprised if it goes beyond 1500-2000.

It sounds like there might be tiers within the suppliers network whereby some get certain stock before or after others. Also does GW sell to any distribution groups? If so then some retailers might be dealing with a distributor between GW and themselves which might further complicate matters

Rod Hull wrote:

Mendi Warrior wrote:
how is it that at 10:01 UK time the GME already appeared as unavailable? Was it then pre-sold? How is it possible to sell thousands of units in less than a minute without the website crashing (we read about another one where the website crashed at release time)?

Their site was absolutely still accepting purchases of the GME after 10:01. I have one timestamped minutes after that, and I'm sure they still had it listed as available at at least 10:06. For reference, two friends of mine have 10:01 timestamped sales that were subsequently offered this 'remedy'.

It comes back to the same thing, they were charging credit cards for stock they did not have. It's misrepresentation.

It is very possible they oversold. Again not trying to defend anyone but could it be that the allocation was guaranteed up to a certain (low) point, "firm commitment", and above that "best efforts" only. You could structure such things in so many ways. And it will probably be a mix of all those things.

I guess we'll never know for sure.

I'm kind of amazed that GW appears to be the good guy in this whole debacle.

Interesting times indeed.

Rod Hull wrote:

Mendi Warrior wrote:
how is it that at 10:01 UK time the GME already appeared as unavailable? Was it then pre-sold? How is it possible to sell thousands of units in less than a minute without the website crashing (we read about another one where the website crashed at release time)?

Their site was absolutely still accepting purchases of the GME after 10:01. I have one timestamped minutes after that, and I'm sure they still had it listed as available at at least 10:06. For reference, two friends of mine have 10:01 timestamped sales that were subsequently offered this 'remedy'.

It comes back to the same thing, they were charging credit cards for stock they did not have. It's misrepresentation.

Oh please. Every retailer in the world charged credit cards for stock that they did not have, as no-one has stock delivered from GW till at least Wednesday. They had an allocation that may or may not have changed, we do not know. They also clearly got a shedload of people hammering their website for a couple of minutes - websites aren't perfect, it may have oversold their allocation briefly. But we're talking minutes tops, perfectly acceptable response times.

P.S. you like citing UK law, you need to read up more on distance selling. For distance selling (anything where the person is not physically present in the shop) a contract of sale is not formed until an item is posted - not at the point of ordering. It's in everyone's T's&C's. It's done this way so that a company is not immediately bankrupted by typo'ing a price for example, forcing them to sell £10,000 products for £1.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Overread wrote:
It sounds like there might be tiers within the suppliers network whereby some get certain stock before or after others. Also does GW sell to any distribution groups? If so then some retailers might be dealing with a distributor between GW and themselves which might further complicate matters

Yes they do. Toymaster is a big one.

MaxT wrote:

Rod Hull wrote:

Mendi Warrior wrote:
how is it that at 10:01 UK time the GME already appeared as unavailable? Was it then pre-sold? How is it possible to sell thousands of units in less than a minute without the website crashing (we read about another one where the website crashed at release time)?

Their site was absolutely still accepting purchases of the GME after 10:01. I have one timestamped minutes after that, and I'm sure they still had it listed as available at at least 10:06. For reference, two friends of mine have 10:01 timestamped sales that were subsequently offered this 'remedy'.

It comes back to the same thing, they were charging credit cards for stock they did not have. It's misrepresentation.

Oh please. Every retailer in the world charged credit cards for stock that they did not have, as no-one has stock delivered from GW till at least Wednesday. They had an allocation that may or may not have changed, we do not know. They also clearly got a shedload of people hammering their website for a couple of minutes - websites aren't perfect, it may have oversold their allocation briefly. But we're talking minutes tops, perfectly acceptable response times.

There is a distinct and plainly obvious difference between charging in good faith for an item you can supply, and knowingly for one you cannot. Word from other retailers seems consistent that they were warned ahead of time of the supply limitations. As yet there has been no deluge of companies telling customers they won't be getting their copies of the GME, which would happen if this were GW screwing the retailers.

As to their website. If they are so grossly inept as to have a retail system set up where the same individual item of inventory can be simultaneously sold to multiple customers, that is not something anyone should be defending. It's not acceptable, certainly not from a company the size of Element.

I though that there were several stores reporting a shortage of stock

Honestly it sounds like retailers took pre-orders without knowing their full stock inventory that they would get. They knew it would be limited but not what the specific limit was (some appear to know and some don't so it liekly reflects different ordering systems and relationships with the distribution network). I doubt game stores make enough money from 2 or 3 days pre-order on interest (can they even bank or do anything with pre-order payments?) to actually make it worth organising it as a scam. They just put up their pre-orders at the same time GW did and all the other stores did to compete. The shortfall of stock is a pain but its not exactly something we can "blame". There was ALWAYS going to be a finite amount of stock.

MaxT wrote:

Yes they do. Toymaster is a big one.

Sounds about right, esp considering that things like the discontinued Blood Coven for Daughters of Khaine is still stocking so makes sense that there is clearly stock hanging around in the distribution network outside of GW central.

 xttz wrote:
A (UK) FLGS near me said on Facebook that he had to order all his GME copies before Saturday and had to buy based on what cash he had that day. He only managed to get less than 10 copies, but all should be arriving.

BrianDavion wrote:

I think a 5 vs 5 match will be pretty sizeable TBH. the only other Maniple we've seen is one that consists of 2-3 Walords and 1-2 Revers. which looks like it might come out to about 1500 points. so I suspect GW's planning on games being about 1500 points. Just a hunch

It does look like they've structured it roughly compared to 40k, so that a similar amount of points results in a similar length game. I think we'll see a typical game size gradually increase as more titans come out and people get the hang of the rules, but I'll be surprised if it goes beyond 1500-2000.

yeah, that said, in my experiance with Battletech this kind of game gets unweildy once you move past a Dozen units perside, between that and the price of titans, I think very view games will go above 5 or so per side (not counting knights) that said I look forward to the inevitable pictures of a Legion vs legion AT game with 30 odd titans per side. that I know someone'll be crazy eneugh to do

I disagree, I think you can absolutely blame a shop that oversells stock and then, instead of honouring the sale, which Element could do with individual kits, blames the wholesaler and offers customers less for more money.

There have been mentions of other retailers similarly impacted, with one named (Mighty Ape in NZ not to name it). I don't know the full extent of this. I haven't seen more, I read a couple posted messages on their FB pages, I don't have FB.

Overselling is not unheard of (think airlines for instance). It doesn't make it legit per se.

Websites and IT systems can cope with a certain volume and will show stresses in peak situations, sometimes even completely crash. I won't blame an online retailer for not having a hedge fund type high frequency trading system allowing for orders to be processed at a level of milliseconds.

As to the bundle they offer, with extra discount, you are free to accept it (it is the "next best thing") or to walk away from it. It could indeed be a marketing tactic and allow them to squeeze a couple hundreds or thousands of pounds and probably alienate some of their clients in the process.

Timestamps between different computers are not in perfect sync. There is a post on Saturday 10:05 here indicating Element is sold out. The only certainty we have is that all happened in a matter of minutes.

We simply don't know what exactly happened and we'll never know for sure.

I would like to understand, for two reasons: to be better prepared next time, and because my mind likes puzzles.

Rod Hull wrote:
I disagree, I think you can absolutely blame a shop that oversells stock and then, instead of honouring the sale, which Element could do with individual kits, blames the wholesaler and offers customers less for more money.

Well we’ll never get to the bottom of this one. And I say hats off to Element for offering a compromise.

After all, we know that GW Direct sell to FGLS at around 60% of retail. To replicate the contents of the GME, that’s £230 retail. Wholesale? £138. To offer individual components at the GME cost, less the 20% discount? £140.

Just not practical nor sustainable, and you’d spend that £2 on someone processing the order alone, ultimately leading to a loss.

Edit. My pricing was off, as looks like two sets of the Civitas terrain, bringing the individual component price to £255, meaning to replicate the big box is a loss for Element from the get go.

Rod Hull wrote:
I disagree, I think you can absolutely blame a shop that oversells stock and then, instead of honouring the sale, which Element could do with individual kits, blames the wholesaler and offers customers less for more money.

Agreed. as a point of comparison, for christmas my sister and brother-in-law bought me the talons of the emperor set. it turns out that they had sold out at GW after my sister and brother in law had ordered it. My local manager outright just gave them a Land Raider rhino, custodes guard and sisters of silence box. and when I casually mentioned in mid January that he'd missed the contemptor dreadnought he promptly took one off the shelf and handed it to me. AND THAT is how GW does things.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Well we’ll never get to the bottom of this one. And I say hats off to Element for offering a compromise.

After all, we know that GW Direct sell to FGLS at around 60% of retail. To replicate the contents of the GME, that’s £230 retail. Wholesale? £138. To offer individual components at the GME cost, less the 20% discount? £140.

Just not practical nor sustainable, and you’d spend that £2 on someone processing the order alone, ultimately leading to a loss.

Edit. My pricing was off, as looks like two sets of the Civitas terrain, bringing the individual component price to £255, meaning to replicate the big box is a loss for Element from the get go.

I've dealt with Element Games before, when they listed Star Wars Imperial Assault Wave 1 packs as available from 6th of December. After purchase, this was moved to 11th. Then 20th. When I emailed, they said March next year. Looks like they're making a habit of selling hot air, so sod them.

BrianDavion wrote:

Rod Hull wrote:
I disagree, I think you can absolutely blame a shop that oversells stock and then, instead of honouring the sale, which Element could do with individual kits, blames the wholesaler and offers customers less for more money.

Agreed. as a point of comparison, for christmas my sister and brother-in-law bought me the talons of the emperor set. it turns out that they had sold out at GW after my sister and brother in law had ordered it. My local manager outright just gave them a Land Raider rhino, custodes guard and sisters of silence box. and when I casually mentioned in mid January that he'd missed the contemptor dreadnought he promptly took one off the shelf and handed it to me. AND THAT is how GW does things.

To be fair GW stores get stock at different values and rates to the independent stores. Plus a GW store might be more secure because if it has a bad few months of sales it has at least got a big company behind it; independent stores don't and for many of them Warhammer is not their most profitable item and that's after the fact many sell at less than retail price to help encourage sales to them instead of to GW direct.

I

 General Helstrom wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Well we’ll never get to the bottom of this one. And I say hats off to Element for offering a compromise.

After all, we know that GW Direct sell to FGLS at around 60% of retail. To replicate the contents of the GME, that’s £230 retail. Wholesale? £138. To offer individual components at the GME cost, less the 20% discount? £140.

Just not practical nor sustainable, and you’d spend that £2 on someone processing the order alone, ultimately leading to a loss.

Edit. My pricing was off, as looks like two sets of the Civitas terrain, bringing the individual component price to £255, meaning to replicate the big box is a loss for Element from the get go.

I've dealt with Element Games before, when they listed Star Wars Imperial Assault Wave 1 packs as available from 6th of December. After purchase, this was moved to 11th. Then 20th. When I emailed, they said March next year. Looks like they're making a habit of selling hot air, so sod them.

That’s more likely FFG’s problem than Elements. FFG weren’t (possibly still aren’t) known for timeliness of release.

MaxT wrote:
Every retailer in the world charged credit cards for stock that they did not have, as no-one has stock delivered from GW till at least Wednesday. .

Our stock of Titanicus arrived about 20 minutes ago

The plot thickens, my local GW who said they were getting no GM sets and we should order elsewhere has now stated they will be stocking it. Hmmmm I wonder where they came from

 General Helstrom wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Well we’ll never get to the bottom of this one. And I say hats off to Element for offering a compromise.

After all, we know that GW Direct sell to FGLS at around 60% of retail. To replicate the contents of the GME, that’s £230 retail. Wholesale? £138. To offer individual components at the GME cost, less the 20% discount? £140.

Just not practical nor sustainable, and you’d spend that £2 on someone processing the order alone, ultimately leading to a loss.

Edit. My pricing was off, as looks like two sets of the Civitas terrain, bringing the individual component price to £255, meaning to replicate the big box is a loss for Element from the get go.

I've dealt with Element Games before, when they listed Star Wars Imperial Assault Wave 1 packs as available from 6th of December. After purchase, this was moved to 11th. Then 20th. When I emailed, they said March next year. Looks like they're making a habit of selling hot air, so sod them.

This happened a lot with me for WM/H and Malifaux. Contacted the shop to confirm it was in stock, then ordered then didn't get my products until AGES afterwards. Switched my custom to other people after it happened a few times.

SeanDrake wrote:
The plot thickens, my local GW who said they were getting no GM sets and we should order elsewhere has now stated they will be stocking it. Hmmmm I wonder where they came from

he was proably just misinformed. given that when you reported it everyone else said their stores where stocking it.

Sunno wrote:

 General Helstrom wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Well we’ll never get to the bottom of this one. And I say hats off to Element for offering a compromise.

After all, we know that GW Direct sell to FGLS at around 60% of retail. To replicate the contents of the GME, that’s £230 retail. Wholesale? £138. To offer individual components at the GME cost, less the 20% discount? £140.

Just not practical nor sustainable, and you’d spend that £2 on someone processing the order alone, ultimately leading to a loss.

Edit. My pricing was off, as looks like two sets of the Civitas terrain, bringing the individual component price to £255, meaning to replicate the big box is a loss for Element from the get go.

I've dealt with Element Games before, when they listed Star Wars Imperial Assault Wave 1 packs as available from 6th of December. After purchase, this was moved to 11th. Then 20th. When I emailed, they said March next year. Looks like they're making a habit of selling hot air, so sod them.

This happened a lot with me for WM/H and Malifaux. Contacted the shop to confirm it was in stock, then ordered then didn't get my products until AGES afterwards. Switched my custom to other people after it happened a few times.

Happened to me just recently as well. Dispatch date kept getting moved forward a few weeks at a time until I finally e-mailed them and they confessed they wouldn't get the items. I cancelled my order and will probably move to Firestorm and others in the future (well, until Brexit).

Mandragola wrote:
It sounds to me like two titans could really struggle to kill each other 1v1, but that things could really change with more numbers involved. At that point you start to be able to focus a titan down faster than it can regenerate.

I think it’s a real shame the warlord comes with such a bad load out. So on top of the megabucks for the box you will have to shell out even more just to have a sensible set of guns. At least the reaver comes with a bunch of options.

I played demos of the game over the weekend as 1v1 with 2 Warlords and it is a bit of slog as you are completely foregoing all movement (we were also sticking to the very basics of the rules, so no special orders or stratagems) so just standing and shooting and with 4 servitor claves Warlords have a decent chance of regenerating shields and cooling the plasma reactor, though on the other hand the turns are hardly short. The thing is, a quick look at the movement stats of the other units, the rules for line of sight and that models get +1 to wound rolls when in the side arc and +2 when in the rear arc means we could instantly see that even with just a few Knights this game is going to have a lot of tactical depth.

Apocalypse Missile Launchers and two Belicose Volcano Cannons are not a bad loadout for a Warlord, the missiles are good for dropping void shields as they have 10 shots adn the Volcano Cannon autowounds everything (S12 and the highest result needed to wound is 13) but it's got a really good chance of getting critical hits against other Warlords, something that will be very important for taking out Titans in general. That said I can certainly see people wanting to swap one of the Volcano Cannons out for something else, personally I really want to try out the Quake Cannon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

 zedmeister wrote:

 xttz wrote:

Warlord with the default load out is 385 + 15 + 55 + 55 = 510. The volcano cannons are the most expensive arm option, so Warlords can be a bit cheaper than this.

Reavers are 250pts basic, weapons are 10-35pts each

Warhounds are 180pts with weapons for 10-30pts each

1,370. So an axiom maniple + knights is about 1500. For bigger, Epic scale games, you're looking at 3,000-4,000 points which, incidentally, were the points sizes for previous Epic games.

I think a 5 vs 5 match will be pretty sizeable TBH. the only other Maniple we've seen is one that consists of 2-3 Walords and 1-2 Revers. which looks like it might come out to about 1500 points. so I suspect GW's planning on games being about 1500 points. Just a hunch

I gather it states in the rulebook that the game is designed to be played around 1250 to 1750 points.

 General Helstrom wrote:

Mendi Warrior wrote:

 Mr_Rose wrote:

Mendi Warrior wrote:

 Mr_Rose wrote:

The Outpost just sent out notification that they are now accepting pre-orders for the 2019 print run, first come first served.

Paid upfront?

I believe so, based on the way their email was worded. I don’t know because I already have a preorder with them due to arrive on Saturday so I haven’t tried to place another.

So, giving them a free loan basically, money likely tied for several months and no guarantee to get the reprint …

Spoiler:

Maybe you get your number in the queue (like with my internet provider "you are number 256 in the queue, please hold the line")

Yeah let's loan good money to the twits who oversold their clearly limited stock in the first place

As far as I know, the Outpost took no backorders and is fulfilling every order placed on Saturday. I wouldn’t have mentioned them otherwise.

 Mr_Rose wrote:

 General Helstrom wrote:

Mendi Warrior wrote:

 Mr_Rose wrote:

Mendi Warrior wrote:

 Mr_Rose wrote:

The Outpost just sent out notification that they are now accepting pre-orders for the 2019 print run, first come first served.

Paid upfront?

I believe so, based on the way their email was worded. I don’t know because I already have a preorder with them due to arrive on Saturday so I haven’t tried to place another.

So, giving them a free loan basically, money likely tied for several months and no guarantee to get the reprint …

Spoiler:

Maybe you get your number in the queue (like with my internet provider "you are number 256 in the queue, please hold the line")

Yeah let's loan good money to the twits who oversold their clearly limited stock in the first place

As far as I know, the Outpost took no backorders and is fulfilling every order placed on Saturday. I wouldn’t have mentioned them otherwise.

Oops! Got my businesses mixed up then. My apologies. I've edited my post.

MongooseMatt wrote:

MaxT wrote:
Every retailer in the world charged credit cards for stock that they did not have, as no-one has stock delivered from GW till at least Wednesday. .

Our stock of Titanicus arrived about 20 minutes ago

You mean you took pre-orders on Saturday for stock that you didn't have until 20 mins ago??? That's misrepresentation and you'll be hearing from Rod Hull's lawyer

MaxT wrote:


You mean you took pre-orders on Saturday for stock that you didn't have until 20 mins ago??? That's misrepresentation and you'll be hearing from Rod Hull's lawyer

Haven't started taking pre-orders

Though, I have to admit, one copy has 'disappeared' already...