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Tau in 6-th were mostly riptide spam which nob bikers had no real problems against or farsight bombs which were a real problem but such lists almost died out after a while. Eldar were waveserpent spam which was ok if you got 1-st turn and an auto-loose if you didn't and he didn't roll abysmal for d6 shots. I remember it quite well. Daemons were always a mystery to me cause i started loosing interest before the game started with the amount of random gak they got to roll all the time and after a couple games (even with 50/50 winrate) i simply tried to avoid daemons outside tourneys. And in tourneys it was just fmc spam. It all went down to daemons either rolling hot enough to avoid grounding tests and than orks got demolished or daemons getting unlucky and falling from the sky getting their tusked or beaked faces kicked.

Orkz haven't had a player in the top 100 ITC players in a long time. We might occasionally sneak a win or a top 10 appearance in but we are consistently under performing compared to most armies. In 7th edition did any Ork player place well with bully boyz or any list except green tide (and even then only for a short while) in major tournaments? Basically 7th we had competitive lists so long as our opponents weren't playing their best lists. Same for 6th and so far in 8th we have one viable build for competitive games and apparently we can add Squiggoth to it

People don't seem to realize the math behind 16.7% increase in shooting effectiveness behind the stratagem.

Example: 60 shoota shots equals 20 hits (on average).

With the stratagem that is also 10 additional shots that will score 3.3 additional hits.

3.3 is 16.7% of 20. So a 16.7% increase in effective throughput.

If you have a better BS your initial shots will result in more hits, but the effective increase is always 16.7%.

BS3+ means 40 initial hits and from the 10 extra shots you get 6.6 additional hits, which is 16.7% of 40.

It boils down to this. Do you want a 16.7% increase on 20 hits or on 40 hits?

For it to be "as good" for Orkz it should be "Every hit generates an extra shot". That would result in a 33% increase so now those 20 hits are 26. Still not worth doing but at least it isn't ridiculously crap.

Or you could go all in on this strategy and say it increases BS by 1 and all hits generate another shot. So now 60 shots = 45 hits at S4. That isnt bad dakka.

For 10 lootas that's 15 hits on average with that strategy.


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Btw. 45 S4 hits against Marines = 7 dead marines or 3-4 dead Marines in cover.

15x Tankbustas vs. Vehicle with Dakka Dakka Dakka get 4.16667 more attacks (cose of rerolls), those attacks hit 2.3148148 of the times (also rerolls). That's 1.0288 more attacks that pass through Toughness and Armor Save of a Rhino (i.e. 3 dmg more) and 0.5787 more attacks that pass through Toughness and Armor Save of a Land Rider (so there's 1 in 2 chance you will get 3 dmg more).

Is this making any sense? Is this correct? If yes is it worth it to use this Stratagem on full mob of Tankbustas shooting at Vehicles?

 Weazel wrote:
People don't seem to realize the math behind 16.7% increase in shooting effectiveness behind the stratagem.

Example: 60 shoota shots equals 20 hits (on average).

With the stratagem that is also 10 additional shots that will score 3.3 additional hits.

3.3 is 16.7% of 20. So a 16.7% increase in effective throughput.

If you have a better BS your initial shots will result in more hits, but the effective increase is always 16.7%.

BS3+ means 40 initial hits and from the 10 extra shots you get 6.6 additional hits, which is 16.7% of 40.

No, I get it. It's just that 16.7% added to one and a half dead marine simply isn't worth a CP.

No one is arguing that the dakkadakka stratagem is good, as there are stratagems out there that boosts a units shooting by 100%. Guard even has an order that doubles the shooting of their infantry. So compared to that 16.7% is kind of lame. But still better than 5%.

But even without any buffs Orks will benefit from Guilliman and Celestine getting a points increase. I hope the twin Assault cannon gets the same treatment.

I didn't say the Stratagem is amazing or anything, would be alright as a Klan trait similar to Imperial Fist chapter tactic. As a Stratagem it's quite meh.

Just pointed out that it's still a relative 16.7% increase in hits. And yes you absolutely get more hits with higher BS but relatively it's still the same. Just math geekery at play here.

 Weazel wrote:
I didn't say the Stratagem is amazing or anything, would be alright as a Klan trait similar to Imperial Fist chapter tactic. As a Stratagem it's quite meh.

Just pointed out that it's still a relative 16.7% increase in hits. And yes you absolutely get more hits with higher BS but relatively it's still the same. Just math geekery at play here.

'Relatively more hits' isn't that great though when Orks generally don't have a way of getting hits to begin with.
Also, we can add this to the list of things Orks have that proves they can't handle anyone with a -1 to hit.


Has anyone seen the rumored relic and Warlord Trait? I'm kind of disappointed. The souped-up Big Choppa (Allegedly: Melee S: +2, AP2, D3 Wound rolls of 6+ inflict D3 mortal wounds instead of normal damage",) is better than nothing since I'm bringing a Big Choppa on a character in pretty much every game to begin with, but the Warlord Trait giving +1 Strength is almost entirely pointless unless you're trying to go vehicle hunting, (Even then, it only helps against T7 OR T8, depending on if you take a Power Klaw or a Big Choppa,) and the ability to Zoltron ork squads together kind of sucks when one of the squads has to be big and the other has to be small - You can't use it to get frikhuge squads, and you can't use it to take two small squads and make them decently large.

Waaaghpower wrote:
and the ability to Zoltron ork squads together kind of sucks when one of the squads has to be big and the other has to be small - You can't use it to get frikhuge squads, and you can't use it to take two small squads and make them decently large.

It all depends on the exact wording. If it only works on units that are the same (two Boyz mobs, or two Grot mobs etc) then it's pretty meh. If it works on any infantry, then it has the potential to be zogging amazing; staple 30 Grots to a squad of Meganobz as ablative wounds, shove Nobz into a unit of Boyz and use Da Jump to throw them forwards, embed Warbosses in mobs...

I sincerely doubt that it will actually work that way because it starts to break the game (how does the Character rule work for starters) but we can dream at least.

SemperMortis wrote:
Orkz haven't had a player in the top 100 ITC players in a long time. We might occasionally sneak a win or a top 10 appearance in but we are consistently under performing compared to most armies. In 7th edition did any Ork player place well with bully boyz or any list except green tide (and even then only for a short while) in major tournaments? Basically 7th we had competitive lists so long as our opponents weren't playing their best lists. Same for 6th and so far in 8th we have one viable build for competitive games and apparently we can add Squiggoth to it

SM,
What pray tell would that "single list" be? I am having trouble winning a game against Daemons/Marines/DeathGuard
DrG

Boyz, boyz, ghaz, maddoc, at least 2 weirdboyz, more boyz. More boyz. Some kommandos and meh maybe some tankbustas?

No G-Squig with the special sauce?

SemperMortis wrote:
Orkz haven't had a player in the top 100 ITC players in a long time.

For what it is worth, in April 2016 I made it to 9th in the ITC playing nothing but Orks (I only stayed there for about a week). I had 2 RTT wins, a 2nd place, and a 4th place at a GT. I only hit one major that year, and I finished 4-2 for 12th place (maybe 11th can't remember).

My RTT Wins were Oldhammer, and Community Comp events. In my opinion the format of 7th hurt us as much as our codex. If tourney's in 7th had rejected super heavies and formations Orks would have done just fine with their 7th ed codex.


I'm both excited and dubious about chapter approved. The Dakka Dakka Dakka strategem is trash, but as has been pointed out the points costs will matter more than the strategems. I think part of the challenge right now is that a very, very small list of playtesters is responsible for most of the balancing of 40K. This is going to be the 1st test to see if GW can gather intelligence from the wider playerbase. I'd feel alot more confident if there was a rules writer that had a passion for Orks, but until I see the numbers in their entirety, I'll stay hopeful.

Rooooot

Azhday wrote:
15x Tankbustas vs. Vehicle with Dakka Dakka Dakka get 4.16667 more attacks (cose of rerolls), those attacks hit 2.3148148 of the times (also rerolls). That's 1.0288 more attacks that pass through Toughness and Armor Save of a Rhino (i.e. 3 dmg more) and 0.5787 more attacks that pass through Toughness and Armor Save of a Land Rider (so there's 1 in 2 chance you will get 3 dmg more).

Is this making any sense? Is this correct? If yes is it worth it to use this Stratagem on full mob of Tankbustas shooting at Vehicles?

You'll rarely get a full unit of tankbustas in a regular game. But if you do and you see that the enemy vehicle needs to loose this extra 3 wounds right here and right now, you could use a CP. Also, tankbustas have access to bomb squigs and it might be even worth 1 CP in this case.

I'm not too disappointed, to be honest. A copy-paste crappy strategem could mean a copy-paste good strategem. Like getting a -1 to hit or something.

 doktor_g wrote:
No G-Squig with the special sauce?

That actually the second list doing well constantly. though I'm not sure whether it's not just one player doing well with his squiggoth because he is a good player. You also see some BA or DA players doing very well, while the huge bulk of them gets curb stomped.


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Waaaghpower wrote:
Has anyone seen the rumored relic and Warlord Trait? I'm kind of disappointed. The souped-up Big Choppa (Allegedly: Melee S: +2, AP2, D3 Wound rolls of 6+ inflict D3 mortal wounds instead of normal damage",) is better than nothing since I'm bringing a Big Choppa on a character in pretty much every game to begin with, but the Warlord Trait giving +1 Strength is almost entirely pointless unless you're trying to go vehicle hunting, (Even then, it only helps against T7 OR T8, depending on if you take a Power Klaw or a Big Choppa,) and the ability to Zoltron ork squads together kind of sucks when one of the squads has to be big and the other has to be small - You can't use it to get frikhuge squads, and you can't use it to take two small squads and make them decently large.

The warlord trait combined with the relic big choppa does make sense though, since it would put the warboss wielding the relic at S8 instead of S7, which is probably the most important threshold in the game. S8 means wounding vehicles on 3+, heavy tanks on 4+ and marines on 2+. That makes it better against T7 and T8 than the extra attack and exactly as good against marines. Also keep in mind, that you get the strength bonus even in turns when you didn't charge.

Also keep in mind that you get to deal d3 mortal wounds on 5+ if the banner nob is near.

If warlord is wielding a PK, the extra strength is worse than an extra attack though.

 Jidmah wrote:


The warlord trait combined with the relic big choppa does make sense though, since it would put the warboss wielding the relic at S8 instead of S7, which is probably the most important threshold in the game. S8 means wounding vehicles on 3+, heavy tanks on 4+ and marines on 2+. That makes it better against T7 and T8 than the extra attack and exactly as good against marines. Also keep in mind, that you get the strength bonus even in turns when you didn't charge.

Also keep in mind that you get to deal d3 mortal wounds on 5+ if the banner nob is near.

If warlord is wielding a PK, the extra strength is worse than an extra attack though.

A Warboss is already S8 with a big choppa, no?

The bannernob will only boost the relic-choppa if the mortal wounds is dealt on a hit-roll of 6+ rather than a wound-roll. But I guess that remains to be seen.

Oh, right - I keep forgetting that we get to be furious all the time now


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For something completely on topic:

I was shifting point around and managed fit a decent army into a (blitz) brigade at 2000 points that didn't totally suck, so I wanted to share the idea:



The idea is having two battlewagons filled with two units of boyz each that can tie up shooting units, score multiple objectives or try to take wounds of vehicles and mosters with their two big choppas. In my experience, I never had battlewagon boyz benefit from +1 Attack anyways, so I'd rather have a second big choppa in the mob. I also gave those two wagons deff rollas, since I'm pretty confident that my opponent would rather take out battlewagons transporting tank bustas and characters than those filled with boyz.
The other two battlewagons get one unit of shoota boyz, one unit of tank bustaz, a KFF mek and either Thrakka or Grotznik. These are probably the ones getting shot, so I just saved myself the points for bikes and put the meks inside the wagon. In Turn 2 he can disembark, advance to where the battlewagon will end up and then repair it, assuming the wagon survived turn 1.
Skorchas are the best cheap fast attack we can get, they can outflank and later advance 12"+d6 and still scorch something 8" away. Also, screw -1 to hit. I think 11 points per T5 4+ wound is decent, if multi-wound weapons actually shoot them instead of battlewagons, all the better. They can also be repaired by big meks, if the chance arises.

If CA point drops are big enough, I would put the meks on bikes(currently +62 points) and fill out the wagons with more boyz. If the point drops are huge I might even be able to afford dedicated trukks for the tank busta units, to spread threats out across more targets.Currently I'm 313 points short of fielding the list the way I want to.

What do you think? Suggestions? Stop trying to make battlewagons work, jidmah?

Azhday wrote:
15x Tankbustas vs. Vehicle with Dakka Dakka Dakka get 4.16667 more attacks (cose of rerolls), those attacks hit 2.3148148 of the times (also rerolls). That's 1.0288 more attacks that pass through Toughness and Armor Save of a Rhino (i.e. 3 dmg more) and 0.5787 more attacks that pass through Toughness and Armor Save of a Land Rider (so there's 1 in 2 chance you will get 3 dmg more).

Is this making any sense? Is this correct? If yes is it worth it to use this Stratagem on full mob of Tankbustas shooting at Vehicles?

Just to pile in here, where are you going to be putting these Tank Bustas? If you footslog them then they are dead turn 1. They won't fit in a Trukk so you have to put them in a Wagon. So now that already over priced Tank Busta squad (255pts) has to ride in a wagon (161pts). so for 410pts you are going to spend 1 command point to guarantee a Rhino kill or slightly annoying a Land Raider.

Tank Bustas just like every other shooting options orkz have right now, are ridiculously over priced for what little they can do and how squishy they are.

Tankbustas fit very well in a trukk. They are just not that competitive after the transport-tax. A trukk of tankbustas costs more than 10 kannonz.

What tankbustas really need is ablative wounds. Like if you could take a squad of shoota-boyz with some or all of them upgraded to lootas/tankbustas/burnas.

pismakron wrote:
Tankbustas fit very well in a trukk. They are just not that competitive after the transport-tax. A trukk of tankbustas costs more than 10 kannonz.

What tankbustas really need is ablative wounds. Like if you could take a squad of shoota-boyz with some or all of them upgraded to lootas/tankbustas/burnas.

15 tank bustas fit into truck? Since when?

tneva82 wrote:

pismakron wrote:
Tankbustas fit very well in a trukk. They are just not that competitive after the transport-tax. A trukk of tankbustas costs more than 10 kannonz.

What tankbustas really need is ablative wounds. Like if you could take a squad of shoota-boyz with some or all of them upgraded to lootas/tankbustas/burnas.

15 tank bustas fit into truck? Since when?

Twelve tankbustas fit in a trukk. Or 2x5 + two squigs. Or 5 + 2 squigs + 5 Nobz. Or 10 tankbustas + weirdboy + Painboy. There are many useful combinations.

Slightly situational, but have many of you used Trakors over Kannons?

8pts more, which is mostly on the 3 extra krew the gun brings.
You don't get the Frag option.

Against Eldar, Necrons and 'Nids I've been fining these work nicely.
A guaranteed explode on a hover vehicle in the middle of their lines gets a nice bonus.

 Jidmah wrote:

Spoiler:

++ Brigade Detachment +9CP (Orks) [132 PL, 2000pts] ++

Big Mek [5 PL, 75pts]: Choppa, Kustom Force Field [20pts]
Big Mek [5 PL, 75pts]: Choppa, Kustom Force Field [20pts]
Ghazghkull Thraka [11 PL, 215pts]

Boyz [9 PL, 75pts]
. Boss Nob [15pts]: Big Choppa [9pts], Shoota
. 10x Ork Boy W/ Shoota [60pts]
Boyz [5 PL, 69pts]
. Boss Nob [15pts]: Big Choppa [9pts], Shoota
. 9x Ork Boy W/ Shoota [54pts]
Boyz [5 PL, 69pts]
. Boss Nob [15pts]: Big Choppa [9pts], Shoota
. 9x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa [54pts]
Boyz [5 PL, 69pts]
. Boss Nob [15pts]: Big Choppa [9pts], Shoota
. 9x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa [54pts]
Boyz [5 PL, 69pts]
. Boss Nob [15pts]: Big Choppa [9pts], Shoota
. 9x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa [54pts]
Boyz [5 PL, 69pts]
. Boss Nob [15pts]: Big Choppa [9pts], Shoota
. 9x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa [54pts]

Mad Dok Grotsnik [7 PL, 74pts]
Tankbustas [7 PL, 139pts]: 2x Bomb Squig [20pts]
. Boss Nob [17pts]: Rokkit Launcha [12pts]
. 5x Tankbusta [85pts]: 5x Rokkit Launcha [60pts]
. Tankbusta w/ Pistols [17pts]: Pair of Rokkit Pistols [12pts]
Tankbustas [7 PL, 122pts]: 2x Bomb Squig [20pts]
. Boss Nob [17pts]: Rokkit Launcha [12pts]
. 4x Tankbusta [68pts]: 4x Rokkit Launcha [48pts]
. Tankbusta w/ Pistols [17pts]: Pair of Rokkit Pistols [12pts]

Skorcha Buggy [4 PL, 66pts]
. Skorcha [66pts]: Skorcha [17pts]
Skorcha Buggy [4 PL, 66pts]
. Skorcha [66pts]: Skorcha [17pts]
Skorcha Buggy [4 PL, 66pts]
. Skorcha [66pts]: Skorcha [17pts]

Battlewagon [11 PL, 180pts]: 'ard Case, Deff Rolla [19pts]
Battlewagon [11 PL, 180pts]: 'ard Case, Deff Rolla [19pts]
Battlewagon [11 PL, 161pts]
Battlewagon [11 PL, 161pts]

Be sure to write the report here if/when you try this out!
I'm gonna write that list down somewhere.

 grendel083 wrote:
Slightly situational, but have many of you used Trakors over Kannons?

8pts more, which is mostly on the 3 extra krew the gun brings.
You don't get the Frag option.

A kannon is 27 points while a traktor is 40 points, if I am not mistaken.

pismakron wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
Slightly situational, but have many of you used Trakors over Kannons?

8pts more, which is mostly on the 3 extra krew the gun brings.
You don't get the Frag option.

A kannon is 27 points while a traktor is 40 points, if I am not mistaken.

You're quite right. Forgot to add the extra cost of krew.

Did anyone watched the WH TW from the beggining? I just tuned in :/ Did they addressed anything concerning Orks?

Azhday wrote:
Did anyone watched the WH TW from the beggining? I just tuned in :/ Did they addressed anything concerning Orks?

Very little. They previewed headwompa's Kill Choppa which I think had already been previewed.

They did speak at length about their updated rules writing process:
Clarification faqs 2 weeks after codex release. Balancing FAQ's in March and September using the Adepticon and Nova events respectively as a final source of data for the balancing FAQ's. Their playtest team is expanding, and they are adding top tier tourney players.

Have you guys checked out the CA images from the rumors forum?


https://www.instagram.com/p/Bb5U_nflpU2/

Orks on page 4



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mork down to 250, but no change to Gork.

PKs down to 13