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Pink are MUCH harder to shift (especially if you have command points to spare buff them/ignore moral). 30 Pinks fully split means a total 150 models to shift, including invulnerable saves that means 222 wounding hits, or 300 with warp surge active.
Pink horror moral isn't a massive issue if you split intelligently, leaving a chunk of Brimstone to take the battleshock hit. 12-14 casutallies is nothing when you have to get through 50 bodies before you drop them below the magic 20 mark. Say 5 pinks and 10 blues go down in shooting, you still have 10 brims to eat the battle shock (and 25 Pinks left to cause mayhem).
The cultists are hardly cheaper when you add in the cost of Abbadon. Sure you can tide of traitors them, but only if there are some left. In the current horde heavy meta, killing 40 T3 (with virtually no save) bodies isn't that hard, 30 fully buffed Horrors can almost do it on their own.
I'm not saying Cultist are useless, far from it. But Pinks are just as strong.
Lots of factors involved I suppose. I forgot about daemonspark which certainly helps a lot. 90 shots is solid but I am really not a fan of how pinks lose so much firepower after losing just 10 T3 models, which is extremely easy to achieve thanks to insane morale casualties on giant blobs. Kill 7 pinks, roll a 3-4 average on morale, 3-4 models flee, now you're down to Assault 2 S3 with no real way of getting that extra 30% firepower back on top of the 30% casualties you already took. Realistically VOTLW is the only 1 CP you need to spend to get relevant damage out of 40 cultists, especially once in rapid fire range (80 shots, re-rolling misses, wounding T3 on 3s, T5 on 4s, T9 on 5s without buffs or dependencies). Black Legion cultists can also advance and shoot at Assault 1 24" thanks to the legion trait so I think the extra range and durability easily make up for the pseudo-"degrading" damage profile that pinks have. I also run Alpha Legion and have found that it works great in conjunction with a Abby/cultist detachment. At this point I'm even considering Black Legion oblits for the full hit re-rolls so I can save prescience for something else.
How many points would you typically leave for splitting? A max unit of pinks is 210 points, with 20 blues and 20 brims of splits that's another 160 points bringing it up to 370. Abaddon is 240 while 40 cultists is 160. The points cost is comparable but one seems to output a lot more damage than the other, especially after taking a few turns of fire. Furthermore, Abaddon's re-roll all misses bubble and the 1CP VOTLW seems like a much more reliable way to keep a fearless chaff blob buffed without being so dependent on a herald (add 70pts) + flickering flames + daemonspark. Abaddon himself also hits like a truck in both shooting/melee which is way better than any Tzeentch herald or even a DP.
100-200 points of splits seems like a waste to me since those points don't buy you any more guns. At that point you could buy another unit of 40 fearless cultists.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2018/05/20 09:06:46
barboggo wrote: Lots of factors involved I suppose. I forgot about daemonspark which certainly helps a lot. 90 shots is solid but I am really not a fan of how pinks lose so much firepower after losing just 10 T3 models, which is extremely easy to achieve thanks to insane morale casualties on giant blobs. Kill 7 pinks, roll a 3-4 average on morale, 3-4 models flee, now you're down to Assault 2 S3 with no real way of getting that extra 30% firepower back on top of the 30% casualties you already took. Realistically VOTLW is the only 1 CP you need to spend to get relevant damage out of 40 cultists, especially once in rapid fire range (80 shots, re-rolling misses, wounding T3 on 3s, T5 on 4s, T9 on 5s without buffs or dependencies). Black Legion cultists can also advance and shoot at Assault 1 24" thanks to the legion trait so I think the extra range and durability easily make up for the pseudo-"degrading" damage profile that pinks have. I also run Alpha Legion and have found that it works great in conjunction with a Abby/cultist detachment. At this point I'm even considering Black Legion oblits for the full hit re-rolls so I can save prescience for something else.
How many points would you typically leave for splitting? A max unit of pinks is 210 points, with 20 blues and 20 brims of splits that's another 160 points bringing it up to 370. Abaddon is 240 while 40 cultists is 160. The points cost is comparable but one seems to output a lot more damage than the other, especially after taking a few turns of fire. Furthermore, Abaddon's re-roll all misses bubble and the 1CP VOTLW seems like a much more reliable way to keep a fearless chaff blob buffed without being so dependent on a herald (add 70pts) + flickering flames + daemonspark. Abaddon himself also hits like a truck in both shooting/melee which is way better than any Tzeentch herald or even a DP.
100-200 points of splits seems like a waste to me since those points don't buy you any more guns. At that point you could buy another unit of 40 cultists.
As already pointed out above, smart splitting can make it very hard to take a unit of 30 pinks down to below 20, plus if you are feeling lucky and you take the icon, there is a chance you can actually bring back some pinks.
Those 100-200 reserve points (i take 100-150) dont have to be spent on splitting, they can also be used to summon something else if your pinks are being ignored. Therefore those points are always being used on something useful whether it be keeping pinks above 20 or summoning a counter unit.
What it comes down to is cultists are simply easy to remove in the current meta with most armies having options for dealing with chaff. This includes plenty of rending weapon options, meaning your cultists are likely to get no save from a lot of units.
Also the point about relying on a heralds buff: The herald cannot be targetted whilst the pinks are up and will travel with them anyway, the two are paired, you wouldnt take the pinks without one and it is a very reliable source of buffs without wasting CP.
Sorry I just don't think cultists are a better choice and I think we are likely to see more competitive lists running horror blobs and nurglings over cultists.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also horros can small smite and even when they drop below 20 are still assult 2 so are still putting out equivalent or slightly better damage than cultists
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/05/20 09:20:31
Let's say we do damage with the goal of staying above 20 pinks as long as possible and minimizing morale loss as much as possible (which means saving for blues before brims).
With pinks:
Inflict 10w @ 4++ to get through 10 pinks.
Inflict 15w @ 5++ to get through 15 blues.
21.5 models flee. (15 brims, 6 pinks)
Net loss = 218pts, with severe damage reduction from being under 20 pinks.
Remaining firepower = 28 S4 18" shots
We are down to 14 pinks and all we had to do was get past 10 4++ saves and 15 5++ saves. Not difficult. Turns out the extra 30w of splits that we paid for really only got us about 10 extra wounds @ 5++ due to morale. That's paying roughly 10 points per 5++ wound which is awful.
After shooting away just 25 models (out of 60), we've reduced the firepower of the unit from 90 S4 18" shots down to 28 S4 18" shots. We've also annihilated 218 of the 408 points of invested into this blob.
With cultists:
Inflict 25w @ 6+.
0 models flee.
Net loss = 100pts, no damage reduction except for models lost
Remaining firepower = 15 shots @ 24" or 30 shots @ 12", re-rolling ALL misses, and comparable (actually slightly better) wounding ability for 1CP VOTLW
And Abaddon still has max health and eats the changecaster for breakfast
You've only lost 100pts in this scenario and still have 240pts of badass chaos warmaster who will be very hard to kill even after losing the whole blob (2+/4++, halves all damage, T5, 7w)
There is a reason why tactical marines are terrible chaff and that’s because spending extra points for a slightly better save does not help against the kind of massed, negligible-AP firepower that will be shooting at it. Killing 10 T3 4++ and 15 T3 5++ models is ridiculously easy and once those are down the remaining pinks/splits have no way of getting their firepower back. I mean if your opponent is firing lascannons at your pinks then sure they are great. Splitting is a cool concept but in practice I find it just exacerbates the already-severe morale issues that come with large blobs. It doesn't help that the more you split, the weaker the invuln, which makes it even easier to inflict massive morale damage.
This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2018/05/20 11:31:15
1. Pinks split as soon as they are killed so if a unit shoots at them they better kill 10 straight up otherwise each model they killed will be splitting before their next unit targets them creating more chaff to get through with the next unit. With a 4++ save a unit needs to inflict on average 20 wounds to kill off 10 pinks. Very doable yes but that requires a lot of dedicated fire to get that off. Even harder to achieve this if you give them the stratagem to make them 3++.
If you manage to lose 10 from one units shooting and pay all splits the unit now has 20 pinks and 20 blues(100pts for those splits) so the unit has gone from 20 to 40. From those 20 each of them can be split for 3 pts a peice (60pts). Expensive points wise buts thats why you have the points in reserve. As the pinks die and split more firepower is needed to get to the others.
2. If your pinks copped it and are gonna suffer from ld test, such as in the above scenario, spend 2 cp and auto pass, if its not so bad burn your blues and brims that were created when you split.
3. The whole purpose of the pinks is to stay alive and screen whilst the rest of your army positions or prepares to charge. They are a hardy quick screening unit that can still dishout a lot of firepower and requires significant dedicated firepower to remove. They are there to put out damage and allow the heavy hitters behind them to charge forward once they are in range and potentially tarpit some units in the process (dont forget the tzeentch loci can be quite effective for keeping them alive in CC). If they lose their ability to shoot 3 times each its not the end of the world at all they arent the core of my offensive output they are actually a small part of it.
I run other units of chaff including 2x 10 man brims and 3x 10 man cultists, i have found that people are put off shooting a unit that has a high invul and will split when other easier options are on the table. This means that people often underestimate the required firepower it takes to remove 10 in 1 go as in the scenario mentioned above.
With a 6+ save light to medium gunfire in a medium sized gunline is going to destroy those cultists quickly and as people know about the ToT strat i think people will be happy to commit their firepower to wipe the unit out completely so that they dont come back. Their reach for effective shooting is also significantly less (6inches less) than pinks, their effectiveness essentially drops by 50% over 12 inches.
Running the numbers it is much harder to erase horrors from the board in 1 turn, they may not put out as much firepower, but they will need to be targetted again the next turn and there may even be more bodies to shoot through. More expensive sure but more durable definitely.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/20 12:31:29
1. Pinks split as soon as they are killed so if a unit shoots at them they better kill 10 straight up otherwise each model they killed will be splitting before their next unit targets them creating more chaff to get through with the next unit. With a 4++ save a unit needs to inflict on average 20 wounds to kill off 10 pinks. Very doable yes but that requires a lot of dedicated fire to get that off. Even harder to achieve this if you give them the stratagem to make them 3++.
If you manage to lose 10 from one units shooting and pay all splits the unit now has 20 pinks and 20 blues(100pts for those splits) so the unit has gone from 20 to 40. From those 20 each of them can be split for 3 pts a peice (60pts). Expensive points wise buts thats why you have the points in reserve. As the pinks die and split more firepower is needed to get to the others.
2. If your pinks copped it and are gonna suffer from ld test, such as in the above scenario, spend 2 cp and auto pass, if its not so bad burn your blues and brims that were created when you split.
3. The whole purpose of the pinks is to stay alive and screen whilst the rest of your army positions or prepares to charge. They are a hardy quick screening unit that can still dishout a lot of firepower and requires significant dedicated firepower to remove. They are there to put out damage and allow the heavy hitters behind them to charge forward once they are in range and potentially tarpit some units in the process (dont forget the tzeentch loci can be quite effective for keeping them alive in CC). If they lose their ability to shoot 3 times each its not the end of the world at all they arent the core of my offensive output they are actually a small part of it.
I run other units of chaff including 2x 10 man brims and 3x 10 man cultists, i have found that people are put off shooting a unit that has a high invul and will split when other easier options are on the table. This means that people often underestimate the required firepower it takes to remove 10 in 1 go as in the scenario mentioned above.
With a 6+ save light to medium gunfire in a medium sized gunline is going to destroy those cultists quickly and as people know about the ToT strat i think people will be happy to commit their firepower to wipe the unit out completely so that they dont come back. Their reach for effective shooting is also significantly less (6inches less) than pinks, their effectiveness essentially drops by 50% over 12 inches.
Running the numbers it is much harder to erase horrors from the board in 1 turn, they may not put out as much firepower, but they will need to be targetted again the next turn and there may even be more bodies to shoot through. More expensive sure but more durable definitely.
Yes I made the example in a vacuum because that's the most reasonable way to make an apples to apples comparison. Furthermore, I don't see anything in your rebuttals where the context of the rest of your army makes a significant difference? We are talking about a blob of screening units that can weather fire and also deal some damage in return.
1. I don't see how the order of splitting is relevant as I've already accounted for the best case splitting scenario in which higher saves get thrown before weaker saves. I mean if you want to throw weaker saves first (say, rolling a 5++ save on a blue when you still have 25 pinks left) then you're going to suffer even crazier losses when the morale phase comes around. More pinks will be fleeing instead of getting to use their expensive 4++. Best case scenario is rolling all of your best saves for the actual wounds inflicted on your unit, then saving your weakest units for morale losses. In my example I've already accounted for 15 blues of splits and 15 brims of splits. Increasing the number of splits is just going to make it more and more worth it for your opponent to continue firing at your blob because your invulns go from 4+ to 5+ and finally to 6+, with each failed invuln creating another "no save allowed" casualty due to morale. As it stands, splitting is garbage because you're paying 3-5 points for 1w models that don't contribute to the shooting phase.
2. Spending 2CP to auto-pass morale on pinks is absolutely worth it when you stand to lose 21 models from morale (LOL). But how about not losing those 21 models in the first place? Your opponent basically gets more value per shot fired when you take twice as many losses due to morale scaling on large blobs and forces you to spend 2CP to compensate. This seems really bad.
3. I agree with you on this this, and for the record I don't think pinks are the worst screening unit. Fearless cultists just perform the same role better and cheaper, with less variance and conditional requirements.
My take on it is that pinks w/ splits are way too expensive, insanely weak to morale, suffer tremendous damage degradation, and are not even really much more durable to massed small arms fire despite what the splitting mechanic may lead you to believe.
Finally, if you really want to make the difference apparent, consider 80 fearless cultists vs 60 pinks + 200-300 points for splitting. It's not even a contest at that point. Nick Nanavati's top 10 Adepticon pox walker farm list was 120 cultists and Abaddon, not 90 pinks and a changecaster.
Automatically Appended Next Post: EDIT: Just calculated the points. Abaddon + 120 fearless cultists is 720 points. A Changecaster and 2 units of 30 pinks (with enough splits for 15 blues/15 brims per unit) is 738pts. Unless you're running pure daemons for fluff reasons, there is no contest. Morale immunity beats a 4++/5++ any day of the week when it comes to large blobs.
This message was edited 9 times. Last update was at 2018/05/20 13:21:50
1. Pinks split as soon as they are killed so if a unit shoots at them they better kill 10 straight up otherwise each model they killed will be splitting before their next unit targets them creating more chaff to get through with the next unit. With a 4++ save a unit needs to inflict on average 20 wounds to kill off 10 pinks. Very doable yes but that requires a lot of dedicated fire to get that off. Even harder to achieve this if you give them the stratagem to make them 3++.
If you manage to lose 10 from one units shooting and pay all splits the unit now has 20 pinks and 20 blues(100pts for those splits) so the unit has gone from 20 to 40. From those 20 each of them can be split for 3 pts a peice (60pts). Expensive points wise buts thats why you have the points in reserve. As the pinks die and split more firepower is needed to get to the others.
2. If your pinks copped it and are gonna suffer from ld test, such as in the above scenario, spend 2 cp and auto pass, if its not so bad burn your blues and brims that were created when you split.
3. The whole purpose of the pinks is to stay alive and screen whilst the rest of your army positions or prepares to charge. They are a hardy quick screening unit that can still dishout a lot of firepower and requires significant dedicated firepower to remove. They are there to put out damage and allow the heavy hitters behind them to charge forward once they are in range and potentially tarpit some units in the process (dont forget the tzeentch loci can be quite effective for keeping them alive in CC). If they lose their ability to shoot 3 times each its not the end of the world at all they arent the core of my offensive output they are actually a small part of it.
I run other units of chaff including 2x 10 man brims and 3x 10 man cultists, i have found that people are put off shooting a unit that has a high invul and will split when other easier options are on the table. This means that people often underestimate the required firepower it takes to remove 10 in 1 go as in the scenario mentioned above.
With a 6+ save light to medium gunfire in a medium sized gunline is going to destroy those cultists quickly and as people know about the ToT strat i think people will be happy to commit their firepower to wipe the unit out completely so that they dont come back. Their reach for effective shooting is also significantly less (6inches less) than pinks, their effectiveness essentially drops by 50% over 12 inches.
Running the numbers it is much harder to erase horrors from the board in 1 turn, they may not put out as much firepower, but they will need to be targetted again the next turn and there may even be more bodies to shoot through. More expensive sure but more durable definitely.
Yes I made the example in a vacuum because that's the most reasonable way to make an apples to apples comparison. Furthermore, I don't see anything in your rebuttals where the context of the rest of your army makes a significant difference? We are talking about a blob of screening units that can weather fire and also deal some damage in return.
1. I don't see how the order of splitting is relevant as I've already accounted for the best case splitting scenario in which higher saves get thrown before weaker saves. I mean if you want to throw weaker saves first (say, rolling a 5++ save on a blue when you still have 25 pinks left) then you're going to suffer even crazier losses when the morale phase comes around. More pinks will be fleeing instead of getting to use their expensive 4++. Best case scenario is rolling all of your best saves for the actual wounds inflicted on your unit, then saving your weakest units for morale losses. In my example I've already accounted for 15 blues of splits and 15 brims of splits. Increasing the number of splits is just going to make it more and more worth it for your opponent to continue firing at your blob because your invulns go from 4+ to 5+ and finally to 6+, with each failed invuln creating another "no save allowed" casualty due to morale. As it stands, splitting is garbage because you're paying 3-5 points for 1w models that don't contribute to the shooting phase.
2. Spending 2CP to auto-pass morale on pinks is absolutely worth it when you stand to lose 21 models from morale (LOL). But how about not losing those 21 models in the first place? Your opponent basically gets more value per shot fired when you take twice as many losses due to morale scaling on large blobs and forces you to spend 2CP to compensate. This seems really bad.
3. I agree with you on this this, and for the record I don't think pinks are the worst screening unit. Fearless cultists just perform the same role better and cheaper, with less variance and conditional requirements.
My take on it is that pinks w/ splits are way too expensive, insanely weak to morale, suffer tremendous damage degradation, and are not even really much more durable to massed small arms fire despite what the splitting mechanic may lead you to believe.
Finally, if you really want to make the difference apparent, consider 80 fearless cultists vs 60 pinks + 200-300 points for splitting. It's not even a contest at that point. Nick Nanavati's top 10 Adepticon pox walker farm list was 120 cultists and Abaddon, not 90 pinks and a changecaster.
Automatically Appended Next Post: EDIT: Just calculated the points. Abaddon + 120 fearless cultists is 720 points. A Changecaster and 2 units of 30 pinks (with enough splits for 15 blues/15 brims per unit) is 738pts. Unless you're running pure daemons for fluff reasons, there is no contest. Morale immunity beats a 4++/5++ any day of the week when it comes to large blobs.
Wasn't Nicks list pre Tide of Traitors FAQ, and also before PoxWalker nerf? So this is really apples and oranges TBH. Yes cultists work better when you are poxfarming with no cap, want to objective sit and can tide of traitors as many times as you want. P.S. the irony is also that at LVO Joshua death nearly was top 8 with a pink / pox list... so if we look back further than one tournament / player....
That said, I agree with most of what you said for cultists - probably a better cheap screen. I've played with both a considerable amount, each have their strengths. I actually prefer the pinks as I feel they are more versatile, you really only need 1 unit with a changecaster to be effective. For abaddon / the cultists to make back most value you (may) feel obligated to take more than 1 blob of cultist - even though one blob may be the optimal number. The range on the horrors is also nice as you can put in 90 shots from 24 inches out whereas autoguns need to be within 12 - even with the mobility from tide. If you are using warptime, prescience, VOTLW and Tide on the culstists there is an opportunity cost here where maybe obliterators want the VOTLW + Prec with slaneesh etc.
Also in my meta everyone uses -2 to hit on everything (-1 base and lightning fast or flier etc. etc.) so the rerolls to hit feel good but not a huge crushing difference for me on damage out - when hitting on 6's even rerolling half of all initial rolls still hurts (true of pinks and cultists, but really referencing the benefit of abaddon's aura).
If you only want cheap bodies I would agree cultists are generally better - although for actually playing on the table I have found myself to prefer pinks - just not necessarily 3x30 or whatever, they can run pretty well in 1 group of 30. Lastly, it bears noting that almost every top chaos list is running cultists and not pinks - and nick's latest friendly tourny list ran 1 group of about 38 cultists with Slan - per his website.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/05/20 15:05:47
With your point about smart splitting and taking the better saves I think you are incorrect here. The smarter option is to risk it with the blues especially if it keeps your pink above the magic 20. Blues offer nothing except being a body to shoot through same with brims. There is no point risking more pinks on a 50%chance because they have the superior save.
Going back your point above. Say your cultists are facing 20 saves from bolter fire. No ap modifiers just straight saves. You on average keep 3-4 guys. Pinks however will keep roughly 10.
If cultist unit survives the turn you get them back which is great, but you still need to survive the turn.
Those 10 losses for the pinks however generate 20 extra bodies for the rest of that turn which can be split again! And any that survive can get plus 1 to invul for two CP on the next turn making them even harder to kill.
But im covering old ground here.
What it comes down to is that pinks need 2cp investment per turn when taking ld losses to keep them up but no cp investment for offenaive output like the cultists do. As pointed out by orkswubwub you also get to keep votlwEC and prescience for better targets, which there are plenty of.
I have considered running both cultists and pink blobs and still might if i can fit them in my list somewhere. But I just feel like pinks do that screening job better and with more versatility.
Not sure if I'm communicating clearly with splitting btw, but all of my examples mentioned throwing saves for pinks only when the unit was above 20 pinks. We are not disagreeing here, so I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Maybe my examples are confusing?
Anyway I think we've had a solid discussion on this and I'm looking forward to hearing about your results with pinks! I'll also report back if I end up running large blobs of pinks for whatever reason. Sounds like we could use some more data on this
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/20 22:40:36
All good, sorry I may have misunderstood, I did reply in a rush before work this morning, which probably isnt the best when having a critical discussion.
Yea ill be sure to post my results, as still relatively new inclusion in my list. Im also keen to try forward operatives with a large cultist blob as well as cultists so ill be sure to post when I get a chance to try that.
Inflict 10w @ 4++ to get through 5 pinks.
Inflict 15w @ 5++ to get through 10 blues.
11.5 models flee (Brimstones).
So you are only loosing 119.5 point of models and still return fire with 75 shots and will take another round of similar casualties without dropping below 20 pinks.
Those same shots kill 20.8 cultists and half the returning fire (assuming no AP).
If your planning on taking lots of units and happy to keep them clustered around Abby, cultists become better value but obviously the stratagems become watered down about the units.
If you want more independent units, Pinks do better but you'll need multiple heralds and the defensive stratagems have to be applied more carefully.
Personally I'm planning to use 2 units of 30 Pinks and leave about 100 points for splitting, only splitting when a unit is staying above the magic 20 pinks. A third unit (at 2k) is tempting, but I don't know if that leaves enough points for anti-tank duty.
So I'm thinking of starting a second demons detachment to go with mu Nurgle detachment; Tzeentch or Khorne? With Tzeentch it'll be Pinks, Brims, and changecasters (maybe a couple ranged chariot things), with Khorne I'm thinking 3x Skullcannons (3x Skullcannons and 3x PBC's!)
rvd1ofakind wrote: Ok guys, I'm here with the secretest of the secret sauces. So there's a Nurgle Daemons list that is 3:0 so far in the London GT.
That list is.................... 1440 pts of nurlings in squads of 9 xD (+heralds,piper,epidemius,DP)
What in the world do they do damage with? That is about 81 nurglings, so you would definitely have table control from 9" away from opponent deployment all the way back to your table edge. 324 wounds is pretty rough to get through, I doubt many tournament armies can even put out that many shots. Sounds incredibly boring though.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Ok guys, I'm here with the secretest of the secret sauces. So there's a Nurgle Daemons list that is 3:0 so far in the London GT.
That list is.................... 1440 pts of nurlings in squads of 9 xD (+heralds,piper,epidemius,DP)
What in the world do they do damage with? That is about 81 nurglings, so you would definitely have table control from 9" away from opponent deployment all the way back to your table edge. 324 wounds is pretty rough to get through, I doubt many tournament armies can even put out that many shots. Sounds incredibly boring though.
No one is surprised honestly - this is playing to the ruleset (which should be done competitively) but also why the GW ruleset is lackluster - people just sit large troop blobs on objectives - this is why orks also won this event. This nurgle list will be garbage in almost any other ruleset (NOVA, ETC, ITC, etc.).
Chances a pure deamon slaanesh army would work non completive? Doing a escalation campaign. July-October. Part of me wants to hedge my bets for new stuff shortly after the rush of AoS 2.0 in June but not sure. It feels pretty limited for now.
Zid wrote: So I'm thinking of starting a second demons detachment to go with mu Nurgle detachment; Tzeentch or Khorne? With Tzeentch it'll be Pinks, Brims, and changecasters (maybe a couple ranged chariot things), with Khorne I'm thinking 3x Skullcannons (3x Skullcannons and 3x PBC's!)
It's a matter of personal preference and your current army. What do you find it lacking in? If you need more magic and some CC utility -- go for Tzeench (though it would be better to take Thousand Sons now 'cause they can cast Smite without increasing its cost AND can do it from 24 inches away). If you are for more long-range shooting then Scull Cannons are the way to go. You can also take a bloodletter-bomb in the Khorne detachment for some 2-nd turn charges.
How do people use their Pinks? (playing mono-tzeench) I must be doing something wrong as I'm having a hard time pulling out wins with them at 1500pts from my local meta.
My list usually looks something like the following:
I usually keep the 30 pink blob in deepstrike, bring them turn 2. I then cast Flickering Flames (from LoC, to avoid it being denied by opponent) on it to bring their threat up. My firt target is usually any large screen that the enemy may have (poxwalkers, guard blobs, scarabs/warriors) so that I can clear up the path for my smites and following charges.
By this point the first 26x pinks have most likely been pummeled to death and I advance the fluxmaster and demon prince to support the Pinks and Flamers that drop in. Exalteds and flamers aim at anything scary, but usually only hurt it slighlty but don't straight up clear the enemy.
Usually around Turn 3-4 all my pinks are engaged in combat and its time to fly my LoC and Demon Prince to charge and mop up any remaining enemies.
My problem has been that once engaged, my pinks damage outputs drop to crap. I feel like they really need their Assault 3 to use their weight of fire to kill properly. I feel like I am pretty decent at pulling off good charges and positioning my guys as to pile-in/consolidade towards the enemy backline, usually engaging more than my opponents would like.
You can see a sample game I recently played against Death Guard on this link. The list is slightly different, but the core issue remaings.
Should I drop flamers in order to have more pinks (and in turn have more units free from being locked in combat). Should I keep some points spare for summoning and splits?
Great looking army, that squid-surfing DP is awesome
arhurt wrote: Should I drop flamers in order to have more pinks (and in turn have more units free from being locked in combat). Should I keep some points spare for summoning and splits?
I'm in a similar boat in thinking about dumping my flamers. I love the models (OG beaky fungus) but haven't really felt like they're very good. Easy to get an initial round of pops off ... but then what do? Get punched, survivors fly deeper and tickle something else (now at lower strength thanks to leaving herald friend)? Or hang around and pistol into combat, then get punched again.
Related to swapping things out, is the mutalith worth taking a CP hit to stuff into my Tizz Daemons? Lots of nifty rando buffs / mortal wounds, but not totally convinced. I guess if the same points were being spent on mediocre flamers, a mediocre monster that potentially boosts my more functional units is a net plus?
- Salvage
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/23 17:28:45
I use 2 x 30 blobs of pinks. A Fluxmaster and a DP with Daemonspark for reroll 1 to hit and 1 to Wound.
Deepstrike 3 units of Oblits in range for reroll T2 so my pinks can charge as many things as possible while still taking up all the space around DP, Flux and Oblits so they are free shooting.
Yeah i do see that my oblits are doing alot of work here but pinks are a big footprint too clear with a 4++ possible 3++.
Last game i hade all that and 2 LoC.. The LoC did like nothing but tank alot of fire for 2 turns while my pinks and Oblits killed 75% of a Necron army.
Edit: And the Flamers, Never used them as i can only see me DS them T2 and then they will die..
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/23 17:41:38
arhurt wrote: How do people use their Pinks? (playing mono-tzeench) I must be doing something wrong as I'm having a hard time pulling out wins with them at 1500pts from my local meta.
My list usually looks something like the following:
I usually keep the 30 pink blob in deepstrike, bring them turn 2. I then cast Flickering Flames (from LoC, to avoid it being denied by opponent) on it to bring their threat up. My firt target is usually any large screen that the enemy may have (poxwalkers, guard blobs, scarabs/warriors) so that I can clear up the path for my smites and following charges.
By this point the first 26x pinks have most likely been pummeled to death and I advance the fluxmaster and demon prince to support the Pinks and Flamers that drop in. Exalteds and flamers aim at anything scary, but usually only hurt it slighlty but don't straight up clear the enemy.
Usually around Turn 3-4 all my pinks are engaged in combat and its time to fly my LoC and Demon Prince to charge and mop up any remaining enemies.
My problem has been that once engaged, my pinks damage outputs drop to crap. I feel like they really need their Assault 3 to use their weight of fire to kill properly. I feel like I am pretty decent at pulling off good charges and positioning my guys as to pile-in/consolidade towards the enemy backline, usually engaging more than my opponents would like.
You can see a sample game I recently played against Death Guard on this link. The list is slightly different, but the core issue remaings.
Should I drop flamers in order to have more pinks (and in turn have more units free from being locked in combat). Should I keep some points spare for summoning and splits?
I'd set aside around 80 points for splitting one pink horror blob starting on the table and deepstrike the second blob turn 2 Pink blobs with splitting are very tough. Also always give the banner. A lucky role of 1 restoring lost models has more then once let me make a good comeback in both 40k and aos with daemons. and with the good save pinks get you may get more mileage out of it. I've had 0-1 lost model morale rolls allow me to bring back 6 models to the unit.
Also i'd drop the Changeling for another Herald. Tzeentch daemons are already pretty tough with their 4+ invulnerable save and tzeentch locus (makes hit rolls fizzle out) and I personally find a 6+ fnp inferior to +1 str aura on a unit with such a good save. Maybe add a foot herald instead to accompany the pink horror blobs while the disk herald follows the flamers and prince. this also saves you 22 points meaning that for the splitting points you have to drop fewer pink horrors or flamers.
Yeah, Pinks are the backbone of any Tzeentch force at this point. The one weird thing I find about the Deamon Codex is they wrote the rules with the idea of pushing the Loci's to be a big deal, but individually there isn't enough to make it work unless you play it exactly like they want you to. Don't like Pinks? Good luck with Tzeentch. Same with Slaanesh and Khorne, if you don't like bloodletters a Khorne army filled with Skull Cannons and Hounds won't get you far. And if you don't like Deamonettes..... well, there are fiends and a deamon prince.....
Yeah, not playing one of the most powerful units in an already very restricted list (Tzeetch Deamons) is just asking for losses. Considering most players pick from 3+ codices when making lists restricting yourself to 1/4 of a codex then self imposing more restricting isn't going to end with a competitive force.
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arhurt wrote: How do people use their Pinks? (playing mono-tzeench) I must be doing something wrong as I'm having a hard time pulling out wins with them at 1500pts from my local meta.
Some thoughts:
-As others have mentioned flamers aren't great. If you drop them for reserve points, you can either split the horrors to keep them above 20 models or summon in the best unit for the situations- which will rarely be flamers, except against some dedicated assault armies (e.g. Stealer hordes).
Personally I've started putting all my horrors on the table turn one. As one of the most durable units in the game (with splitting) you want your opponent to shoot at them and with 18" range assult weapons they generally don't need to deep strike to get where they want to go. One on the table and one in reserves is the worst of both world as your opponent has one unit to focus on for the first turn or two, and can then shift fire onto the deep strike unit.
In case you're not doing it already, don't forget to split fire with your Pinks, a fully buffed unit averages over 50 wounds on T3 models(4+ to hit RR on 1, 2+ to wound RR on 1), so instead of over killing one unit, spread the love around.
As others have mentioned Changling is Meh.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/24 09:17:21
rvd1ofakind wrote: Don't worry. You'd lose with pinks too. Doesn't that make you feel better? ^.^
(At least if his list is any good. Nurgle Daemons are top tier now. Especially against no armor tzeentch)
Not really, no. I knew it was going to happen, I just didn't expect it to just be so much worse than my other armies compared to how it was during the fall.
Can somebody tell me what the points cost of the Gnarlmaw is now?
In the book its 50. But I've a also seen that its gone up to 85.
Problem is I can't work out in which book or faqs it happened.
nurgle atm is the strongest of all Gods, at least in competitive, durable, hit hard enough, tons of cheap and efficient bodies, Pb+drones are a must 2-3 Dp and lot of nurglings with spoilpox and bilepiper and you ready to kick some asses, actually im playing a list with a nurgle battalion and a Ts outrider+Magnus with bow enlighted but i might switch them for 18 nurglings and more drones, tons of hard to remove and fast wounds.
a thing like that
Daemon Prince of Chaos [9 PL, 180pts]: Malefic talon, Wings
. Nurgle: Stream of Corruption
Daemon Prince of Chaos [9 PL, 180pts]: Hellforged sword, Wings
. Nurgle: Miasma of Pestilence
Epidemius [5 PL, 100pts]
++ Total: [114 PL, 1995pts] ++
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dan2026 wrote: Can somebody tell me what the points cost of the Gnarlmaw is now?
In the book its 50. But I've a also seen that its gone up to 85.
Problem is I can't work out in which book or faqs it happened.
85 points now, you find it in the big faq's
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/05/25 20:33:18
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Zid wrote: So I'm thinking of starting a second demons detachment to go with mu Nurgle detachment; Tzeentch or Khorne? With Tzeentch it'll be Pinks, Brims, and changecasters (maybe a couple ranged chariot things), with Khorne I'm thinking 3x Skullcannons (3x Skullcannons and 3x PBC's!)
It's a matter of personal preference and your current army. What do you find it lacking in? If you need more magic and some CC utility -- go for Tzeench (though it would be better to take Thousand Sons now 'cause they can cast Smite without increasing its cost AND can do it from 24 inches away). If you are for more long-range shooting then Scull Cannons are the way to go. You can also take a bloodletter-bomb in the Khorne detachment for some 2-nd turn charges.
1k Sons is great, but sadly the only new thing they bring to the table is the awesome smites, and great HQ's; everything else in the dex is pretty lackluster, cept Tzangors. Ahrimans amazing, but worth buying a codex for a single dude...?
Tzeentch demons just seem to be extremely flexible comparatively; brims are way cheaper than even cultists, pinks are strong as hell, LoC has his uses, and some of the firepower the army brings is great. I love Khorne and Tzeentch, and fluff be damned, I wanna run one to supplement my Nurgle!
