Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news.

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**drbored**

Crimson wrote:
The most likely reason for not having chaos datasheet now is not that it will be in the codex, but there are changed/new rules/keywords/etc in the new codex that the datasheet should reference, so they don't want now to release a datasheet that would soon be outdated. Hopefully they release one once the codex has been released though.

Yeah, this is my thinking too. I don't know why something like a keyword would be such a big deal, but I bet they don't want to create a situation where, for the next 3-ish weeks, people can't play with their Kratos because it wouldn't have a keyword that's in the current CSM codex.

Even though the kratos doesn't actually get into people's hands for 2 weeks... and the new codex should be coming out right after...

It's all just a bit weak.

**Voss**

If that were the case, I'd expect a small disclaimer in the article. Zero effort to allay fears.

**ClockworkZion**

On Twitter the Warcom team said they've reached out to the devs on it so hopefully we get a response in the next day or so.

**Gir Spirit Bane**

Irbis wrote:
Voss wrote:
So the HH Kratos tank got a 40k datasheet...
but not for chaos.

Yeah, why would a side that can actually maintain it get access to it over one that in lore, has to scrounge the battlefield for a single discarded bolt shells or power armor gloves because your (relatively big and well off) warband has no means of producing stuff Imperial SM dump without a thought thanks to functioning supply lines. It's a mystery

If GW was actually true to its own lore, every single CSM vehicle heavier than Rhino should have martial legacy. No exceptions. Bigger, richer warbands like Red Corsairs and Black Legion already get extra CP to show their greater resources, there, problem solved. Small warbands can make do with daemon engines because that's exactly why they were developed in the first place. I miss the times where logistics and realistic limitations meant something for codex writers (not only CSM having limited access to modern gear, but also Tau being actually bad up close or Eldar wraith units having actual downsides, etc, etc).

I'm hoping this isn't an abjectly stupid oversight or blatant favoritism

Blatant favoritism is CSM being SM++ who not only have access to daemons, daemon weapons, daemon engines, and all the other gak like posessed and HQs no loyalist gets, but to also every single other SM unit. Funny how CSM players never complain about that part, eh?

If anything, I agree. There should be no favoritism, so zero anything that was developed post-Heresy for CSM, as well as no stuff that is expensive or complicated to maintain. None. CSM have their own gak to compensate, there is no reason for them to double dip. And certainly no comically stupid, fanfiction grade lists that even 30K legions at the height of their glory would struggle to field.

You do realize there are plenty of chaos warbands and remnants of legions who do infact have functioning supply lines, partnerships/alliances with the Dark Mechanicum and overall cohesion and armoury maintenance? and for a lot of chaos it's not been millenia since they had those tanks and toys, its been anywhere from weeks to a few years cause the Warp nonsense is everywhere and far reaching. Wouldn't surprise me if in some pocket of the warp its been 15 seconds since the heresy and those legionnaires dont know horus is dead and the Emp's is wounded.

Hell their biggest issue isn't their armour and weapon manufacturers complaining something isn't Omnissiah compliant, it's stopping them all being Ork Meks and creating random things and seeing how many Daemons they can shove into a hot plate before it resembles a melta bomb

**tneva82**

Irbis wrote:
Voss wrote:
So the HH Kratos tank got a 40k datasheet...
but not for chaos.

Yeah, why would a side that can actually maintain it get access to it over one that in lore, has to scrounge the battlefield for a single discarded bolt shells or power armor gloves because your (relatively big and well off) warband has no means of producing stuff Imperial SM dump without a thought thanks to functioning supply lines. It's a mystery

If GW was actually true to its own lore, every single CSM vehicle heavier than Rhino should have martial legacy. No exceptions. Bigger, richer warbands like Red Corsairs and Black Legion already get extra CP to show their greater resources, there, problem solved. Small warbands can make do with daemon engines because that's exactly why they were developed in the first place. I miss the times where logistics and realistic limitations meant something for codex writers (not only CSM having limited access to modern gear, but also Tau being actually bad up close or Eldar wraith units having actual downsides, etc, etc).
.

Yeah no supply lines except for entire planets dedicated to producing wargear for heretic astartes. No supply lines at all...

Surely you don't claim to ignore that half the adeptus mechanicum rebelled and set up their own versions of hive worlds? And that they are more than capable of producing new stuff. And have access to prints loyalists don't have.

I mean SURELY you wouldn't be critizing GW for not following lore if you wouldn't know basics of said lore yourself? That would be unthinkable!

(actually above is silly question as answer is plain. You have no clue about lore you are talking about)

**kodos**

this always breaks down to what exactly the Chaos Codex wants to be

We have the remaining warbands of legions, that changed after the Heresy, re-organised themselves and invented new tech and supply, Black Legions, Iron Warriors and World Eaters as an example (WE broke up into small warbands, IW found a way to create new Marines and the BL got the good connections with the Dark Mechanicus going so far to create/design new Warships, something that was lost to the Imperium pre-Heresy, depending on the source)

There are those Warbands that are fresh out of the Heresy and have talked to Horus himself last week because "the warp"

and there are the traitor Marines, who fall to Chaos recently and have no connection to the original Legions at all

and depending on what the designers like they put the focus on one of the above and change it with the next Codex

the main problem for CSM is simply that one book needs to cover several different things, so you cannot just a a tank with heavy limitation on who is able to use it because of some niche within a niche but everything in the book must be there for everyone

So maybe we see the Kratos with Codex Black Legion or Codex Iron Warriors

**ClockworkZion**

kodos wrote:
this always breaks down to what exactly the Chaos Codex wants to be

We have the remaining warbands of legions, that changed after the Heresy, re-organised themselves and invented new tech and supply, Black Legions, Iron Warriors and World Eaters as an example (WE broke up into small warbands, IW found a way to create new Marines and the BL got the good connections with the Dark Mechanicus going so far to create/design new Warships, something that was lost to the Imperium pre-Heresy, depending on the source)

There are those Warbands that are fresh out of the Heresy and have talked to Horus himself last week because "the warp"

and there are the traitor Marines, who fall to Chaos recently and have no connection to the original Legions at all

and depending on what the designers like they put the focus on one of the above and change it with the next Codex

the main problem for CSM is simply that one book needs to cover several different things, so you cannot just a a tank with heavy limitation on who is able to use it because of some niche within a niche but everything in the book must be there for everyone

So maybe we see the Kratos with Codex Black Legion or Codex Iron Warriors

You forgot all the trading of favors and resources as well which could justify just about anything you want to do with the army.

I still think its hilarious that Chaos is supposed to be full of Renegades as well, but no one brought their Razorbacks, storm bolters, assault cannons, grav weapons or any other goodies unique to the loyalists when they left.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Matter of more limited resources. Once you go Rogue, you give up your usual supply lines. And Chaos doesn’t given you anything for free.

So lower tech items for greater ease of maintenance and in some instances greater reliability would be the order of the day.

Assault Cannons for example? Require lots of ammo, and frequent replacement of the barrels. And those barrels can’t be made of just any old material either. Reaper Autocannon, for not that much loss of effectiveness do away with the barrel issue almost entirely, and require less ammo.

Even if you took your Techmarine with you? They still don’t have the same resources and supply they did. And there’s no guarantee they’ll stay loyal to you should another, more established renegade band decide to recruit him with the promise of greater treasures and secrets.

**blood reaper**

If GW could write functional or interesting rules, 'Renegades' would be a subfaction which gave you access to a limited amount of modern equipment, i.e., plasma cannons, assault cannons, razorbacks, etc.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Matter of more limited resources. Once you go Rogue, you give up your usual supply lines. And Chaos doesn’t given you anything for free.

So lower tech items for greater ease of maintenance and in some instances greater reliability would be the order of the day.

Assault Cannons for example? Require lots of ammo, and frequent replacement of the barrels. And those barrels can’t be made of just any old material either. Reaper Autocannon, for not that much loss of effectiveness do away with the barrel issue almost entirely, and require less ammo.

Even if you took your Techmarine with you? They still don’t have the same resources and supply they did. And there’s no guarantee they’ll stay loyal to you should another, more established renegade band decide to recruit him with the promise of greater treasures and secrets.

This makes very little sense. My guys went Renegade two years ago and now they are operating like a force from 5,000 years in the past with equipment they would never have access to.

Just because the equipment will eventually disappear does not mean it will vanish overnight.

**DreadfullyHopeful**

Worth noting that it's something like the 3rd time Irbis make this post in this thread alone. At some point we ought to stop engaging.

**chaos0xomega**

Some traitor chapters take their fortress monastery and their entire planetary fief with them when they go traitor, not having the same resources and supply is bs. Sure they may lose imports and trade from other Imperial wlrlds, but they gain imports and trade from other traitor worlds instead. The dark mechanicum have their own forgeworlds ffs, if they can manage that then they can manage to replace the barrels on some assault cannons and to stick some guns into a turret mounted on top of a rhino chassis.

**blood reaper**

DreadfullyHopeful wrote:
Worth noting that it's something like the 3rd time Irbis make this post in this thread alone. At some point we ought to stop engaging.

Irbis is an excellent source of just utterly terrible takes but because we have so little to discuss in terms of rumours we have to collectively dump on his position.

**kodos**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
So lower tech items for greater ease of maintenance and in some instances greater reliability would be the order of the day.

going that direction and Chaos Marines would use Lasguns instead of Bolters

a Bolter is the prime example of high maintenance special supply weapon and the main reason why the Guard is not using it, is because they need something with greater reliability that is easy to supply

if Renegade can use Bolters, Predators and Vindicators, there is no good fluff reason why they cannot use other modern equipment as well

**Dudeface**

kodos wrote:
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
So lower tech items for greater ease of maintenance and in some instances greater reliability would be the order of the day.

going that direction and Chaos Marines would use Lasguns instead of Bolters

a Bolter is the prime example of high maintenance special supply weapon and the main reason why the Guard is not using it, is because they need something with greater reliability that is easy to supply

if Renegade can use Bolters, Predators and Vindicators, there is no good fluff reason why they cannot use other modern equipment as well

But to loop back round, there's no excuse they shouldn't be using older equipment, there's some 30k units that aren't available to chaos for reasons unknown before the Kratos, but if they're going down the "lose modern tech because too complicated" that seems anachronistic compared to the absence of the older tech they're meant to have.

No wonder Abby needed 13 attempts, every time he cracked out his whirlwinds he brought with him from terra but the cannons fall off, so he turns back to their supple of contemporary tanks, finds the Kratos halls empty but then turns and sees missiles streaking overhead and 3 looming tanks coming out the gloom as Calgar sits atop the central kratos waving his remaining pinkie finger.

**kodos**

CSM cannot use new tech because they don't have the supply chain to keep it running

CSM cannot use old tech because they don't have the possibility/knowledge to keep it running

CSM cannot use tech that don't need a supply chain or maintenance because this does not look cool

**Dudeface**

kodos wrote:
CSM cannot use new tech because they don't have the supply chain to keep it running

CSM cannot use old tech because they don't have the possibility/knowledge to keep it running

CSM cannot use tech that don't need a supply chain or maintenance because this does not look cool

Excellent description of the spikey marine paradox.

**blood reaper**

kodos wrote:
CSM cannot use new tech because they don't have the supply chain to keep it running

CSM cannot use old tech because they don't have the possibility/knowledge to keep it running

CSM cannot use tech that don't need a supply chain or maintenance because this does not look cool

Chaos Space Marines should fight with rocks, their own faeces, and teeth. As a treat, one model per twenty may carry a bolter.

**Baragash**

blood reaper wrote:
kodos wrote:
CSM cannot use new tech because they don't have the supply chain to keep it running

CSM cannot use old tech because they don't have the possibility/knowledge to keep it running

CSM cannot use tech that don't need a supply chain or maintenance because this does not look cool

Chaos Space Marines should fight with rocks, their own faeces, and teeth. As a treat, one model per twenty may carry a bolter.

Congratulations, you've sunk the entire Chaos range down to a sprue of Nurgle-themed Possessed

**kodos**

keep thinks quiet, otherwise GW will get the idea to just re-brand the AoS Khorne range for the World Eater Codex

**H.B.M.C.**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Matter of more limited resources. Once you go Rogue, you give up your usual supply lines. And Chaos doesn’t given you anything for free.

There are endless worlds dedicated to the propagation of Chaos. The idea that going rogue means you suddenly don't have supply lines - that the forces of Chaos have been fighting The Long War without supply lines - is laughable.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Assault Cannons for example? Require lots of ammo, and frequent replacement of the barrels. And those barrels can’t be made of just any old material either.

Reaper Chaincannons on the other hand, well, those just come out of evil vending machines, right?

**Jack Flask**

kodos wrote:
CSM cannot use new tech because they don't have the supply chain to keep it running

CSM cannot use old tech because they don't have the possibility/knowledge to keep it running

CSM cannot use tech that don't need a supply chain or maintenance because this does not look cool

I can't wait for the next weapon upgrade kit for late Heresy Traitors - Power 2x4's and Bolt Slingshots.

**deffrekka**

EviscerationPlague wrote:
I'm glad Possessed got a huge upgrade but does anyone feel that 5 attacks each is a bit.....overkill?

Tyranid Warriors get 5 attacks at str 7 ap 2 damage 2 for 25pts.... or 7 str 5 ap 1 damage 1 attacks for the same cost, whilst also being troops. The edition is scaling up lethality real crazy. And whilst comparing anything to Tyranids is stupid as they are all undercosted and over ruled datasheets, it wasn't a long time ago people were going crazy about Outriders having like 6 attacks each, and Death Company can get to 7 when fed all the buffs?

Your humble dual LC Terminator or Vanguard Veteran has 5 attacks with Shock Assault. Possessed seem to me perfectly normal, it'll be the synergies and costing that make or break them.

**charles_the_dead_lizzard**

The issue I see is just how the range grew historically and how it diverted from the lore they established in the meantime, especially through HH.

Initially GW just made CSM evil counterparts to Loyalists and it was quite fine. But Lore progressed for both 40k and 30k and described more and more how Marine Squads are based on the Codex Astartes, which made CSM squads following the same pattern weird a.f.. With HH expanding we also learnt how there were different historical tank patterns and a different was of warfare. While this expansion improved HH lore and deepened it, it twisted the state of 40k models and lore to the mess that we know currently. 40k CSM releases did care less about closing the consistency gaps rather than about expanding on new unique aspects like possesed or deamon engines for the past editions, although it seems like they currently start to adress this with the rename of the squads, new terminator design matching older armour types and so on. Yet there is still some mismatch like squad weapon loadouts or tank patterns. While squad loadouts would be fine by GW simply explaining it somehow reasonable in the lore or by introducing new units (like havocs in squads of 10), Tanks would require new models, which mean release slots. HH helps here a lot: Just release the new rhino with the chaos upgrade sprue in a new box and everyone is happy. Similar for the Kratos. It would be a free new product. For better logistic they could just start selling the Vehicle Upgrade Sprue on its own.

**H.B.M.C.**

World Eaters!!!

WarCom wrote:That’s right, Codex: World Eaters is coming – the iconic chainaxes of this bloodthirsty Legion were unveiled during Warhammer Fest, but the anticipation is more than we can bear – so to help quell the rage of the Butcher’s Nails, the White Dwarf team have made an offering to Khorne.

This issue boasts a brutal swathe of rules that you can use to reap a harvest of skulls in games of Warhammer 40,000 until the full codex arrives.

Welcome to a bumper blood-splattered Index Hereticus: World Eaters – eight pages of lore, six pages of rules, a short story starring Khârn the Betrayer. All of this plus a massive selection of blood-drenched World Eaters conversions, epic paint jobs, and a guide on how to create that classic brass and crimson colour scheme yourself.

You might recognise some of these rules from War Zone Charadon Act II: The Book of Fire, but they’re all collected here in one definitive source – and updated to work with the upcoming release of Codex: Chaos Space Marines. On top of their iconic Legion Trait, the Butcher’s Nails, you’ll find six furious Warlord Traits, six gory Relics, eight slaughterous Stratagems, and new datasheets for the unstoppable Khârn the Betrayer and the iconic Khorne Berzerkers.

**Voss**

Wish I could read that section on 'World Eaters Units,' that will make or break my interest right there.

**Dudeface**

Voss wrote:
Wish I could read that section on 'World Eaters Units' that will make or break my interest right there.

Sorry being cynical but this:

You might recognise some of these rules from War Zone Charadon Act II: The Book of Fire

Killed mine, it says it's a lazy copy paste of what's there now with some small tweaks for keywords. the changes to the zerkers is really the only big thing at that point.

**oni**

Hahaha. The small text has been intentionally blurred in the WD page previews. I cannot help but to laugh.

**Voss**

Dudeface wrote:
Voss wrote:
Wish I could read that section on 'World Eaters Units' that will make or break my interest right there.

Sorry being cynical but this:

You might recognise some of these rules from War Zone Charadon Act II: The Book of Fire

Killed mine, it says it's a lazy copy paste of what's there now with some small tweaks for keywords. the changes to the zerkers is really the only big thing at that point.

Well, it is a stop-gap for the new codex until codex WE comes out. So a lazy copy-paste doesn't bother me that much.
For me its if it makes it clear that they're going to lose access to ranged (or other) units. Or not.
Because if its just axes all the time, I don't want Codex Flanderization.

**EviscerationPlague**

Based on the length of that Legion rule, is it the same lazy "1 extra attack if you charged"?

**Dudeface**

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Based on the length of that Legion rule, is it the same lazy "1 extra attack if you charged"?

Yeah I think so, the form of the blurred words looks to mention a 1 and the word charged so more than likely, seems a bit wordier though so not completely devoid of hope.