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Just want a quick confirmation on the use of special weapons and extra attacks. I know two special weapons of the same type confer a bonus attack, as does a special weapon and a close combat weapon.

The Djin Blade states it is a power weapon. I am assuming that the Djin Blade would not grant one extra attack (for a second weapon) if your other weapon is another type of power weapon like a Huskblade. Both are described as power weapons. Your take?

Interesting point... Power weapons and an additional 'normal' close combat weapon do confer an extra attack. Special weapons such as power fists, thunder hammers, lightning claws, or specifically weapons that have unique rules need to have two of them. Basically if the weapons have any additional rules other than ignoring armour saves you'd need two of the same to grant an extra attack. Remember too that you can only use one special CC weapon per phase so you'd have to declare which you're using before blows are struck.

You have two different special weapons that you must choose from, and as such can NEVER gain the bonus for wielding two close combat weapons.

It doesnt matter that it is a power weapon, you still have "Huskblade" and "Djinn Blade" which are special CCW.

Note that the +2A only requires you are the bearer of the Djinn Blade, not that you are wielding it. However thats expensive way to gain +1 atack overall....

Wrong place >_<

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Note that the +2A only requires you are the bearer of the Djinn Blade, not that you are wielding it. However thats expensive way to gain +1 atack overall....

Can you explain this? Can I use this weapon plus a splinter pistol/close combat weapon in order to get a total of +3 attacks using the Djin Blade?

And Can I take a Huskblade, pistol, and then also take a Djin blade. Then would I be getting my normal attacks (4) +1 (extra close combat weapon), +2 and these would be the Djin Blade attacking and not the Huskblade?

The djinn blade is worded as a passive effect, you do not actually need to attack (swing, weild) it for its effects - for this reason the attacks of the djinn bladfe are rollseperatly so one doesn't attach, say, hacksblades ID to them.

If you are armed ONLY with:

- Djinn
- Pistol / Other "normal" CCW

Then you get +3A, all power weapon, with 2 of them following the Djinn blade special rules. Up to 8 on the charge, basically.

HOWEVER if you are armed with:

- Huskblde
- Djinnblade
- any other normall CCW

Then you are equipped with 2 different special CCW, have to choose which to *use* (as you can only use 1 weapon in assault) and therefore you NEVER gain the bonus +1 attack for 2 CCW.

HOwever the wording of the Djinn blade is that, just by *having* (as distinct from *using*) the blade you gain +2A. This is because it uses the explicit wording "Bearer", and not "Wielder" or similar language to imply use of weapon is required. So if you had the huskblade and djinn you would have the huskblades special attack ID thing AND +2A from the Djinn blade. Or you could choose to use the Djinn but that would be silly.

However this is an expensive way to gain a single extra attack (over Huskblade + CCW) AND those 2A can hurt you.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
HOWEVER if you are armed with:

- Huskblde
- Djinnblade
- any other normall CCW

Then you are equipped with 2 different special CCW, have to choose which to *use* (as you can only use 1 weapon in assault) and therefore you NEVER gain the bonus +1 attack for 2 CCW.

HOwever the wording of the Djinn blade is that, just by *having* (as distinct from *using*) the blade you gain +2A. This is because it uses the explicit wording "Bearer", and not "Wielder" or similar language to imply use of weapon is required. So if you had the huskblade and djinn you would have the huskblades special attack ID thing AND +2A from the Djinn blade. Or you could choose to use the Djinn but that would be silly.

However this is an expensive way to gain a single extra attack (over Huskblade + CCW) AND those 2A can hurt you.

Nos has is right from a strict RAW standpoint. But, many people feel that the rulebook statement he gets this from is because the rulebook is only addressing a model with 2 CCWs. A model with 3 CCWs isn't brought up in the BGB. So, there is an argument to be had that he can still get a +1 bonus from having 2 CCWs. Carefully read the section on multiple CCWs in the BGB for all the info. And, if you want to argue he still gets +1 attacks, make sure to discuss this with your opponent pre-game.

The rule in question is:
"Two different special weapons - When it is their turn to attack, these models must choose which weapon to use that turn, but they never get the bonus for using two weapons (such is the penalty for wielding too many complex weapons)"

A model with two specials and a normal still has to choose which weapon to use.

You don't get the bonus regular attack, but you get the +2 special "Djinn" attacks as per the rule.

What if you replace your pistol with a Djinn Blade? You get the +2A due to the wording of the weapon.

It's 20 points, and it can kill you if you roll doubles. It's arguably not worth the risk.

Djinn blades are not replaced by splinters or CCWs, they are bought like combat drugs are, by themselves

While I do not agree w/ the logic used about the Djinn blade, I think there is a bigger issue at stake not mentioned yet. If you're going to have a pistol a Huskblade and a Djinn blade and believe the Djinn blade confers an extra +2 attacks w/o being actually wielded, you're in a world of hurt if those extra two attacks roll the same, because that Huskblade is going to kill you outright.

This is a big reason why I do not believe the Djinn blade works in this manner. The second reason is because the Djinn blade is called a power weapon which is a Special Close Combat Weapon per the BRB. 'Wielder' and 'Bearer' I admit can be argued to be different enough to justify this but be ready for the consequences if that's the way you want to go with it.

Scott-S6 wrote:The rule in question is:
"Two different special weapons - When it is their turn to attack, these models must choose which weapon to use that turn, but they never get the bonus for using two weapons (such is the penalty for wielding too many complex weapons)"

A model with two specials and a normal still has to choose which weapon to use.

The 'they never get the bonus for using two weapons' assumes they are Wielding/Using 'Two different special weapons' which is not the case if they are Wielding/Using one special weapon and one normal weapon.

Note that you have to be Wielding/Using 'Two different special weapons' to use these rules.

This entry assumes you are Wielding/Using 'Two different special weapons'.

If you are Wielding/Using 'A normal and a special weapon', you use the rules for 'A normal and a special weapon'

The section also assumes you are equipped with exactly 2 CCW's and does not account for having 3 or more CCW's.

3 or more CCW's is somewhat of a grey area, because you use only 2 weapons in CC.

An archon has 3 wounds, and a 2++ in theory, he should 'kay from just a measly 2 PW attacks.

How on earth are they going to 'kill you outright'?

We already say all the time it needs an faq.

Isn't calling something a 'power weapon' a really smart move for once? Everyone knows what power weapons do it's defined in the rulebook. It removes the need to say 'armour saves my not be taken against wounds inflicted by the djinn blade', well... not anymore

DR - either you use the rules presented, or models with 3 CCW cannot attack.

The rules presented make you CHOOSE which weapons you are going to fight with. One of those choices is which special weapon to use. AS SOON as you make that choice you are prevented from ever getting the bonus attack.

For those of you who are trying to rule on this without having read the codex:

The djinn blade is a power weapon bought as if it were "other equipment", it is not listed as replacing anything. Furthermore the ruleset for the weapon states "The bearer" gains two additional attacks, fluffwise we can assume the Djinn is swooping around on its own, rulewise it provides the model with +2 attacks, at a risk, aka you dont need to "wield" the item to use its effect, the codex description is fairly clear.

Thus: A model with 2 CCW´s gets +1 A for the "additional CCW" rule, and a further +2A if it had purchased Djinnblade.

Tsurugi - erm, no? Noone has said you cant gain +1A, just if you have 2 special CCW (A djinn blade IS a special CCW) you have to choose which one to *use* and therefore NEVER gain the +1A.

The rules for the Djin blade use both the words "Bearer" and "Wielder" so I feel that any argument using just one of those terms to justify anything needs to be discounted.

The rules call it a power weapon.
There is nothing to suggest it should be treated any differently from any other SCCW.

Let me explainin more detail. A big problem with supposed rules issues like this is that people are A) trying to rules lawyer an advantage and B) only want to apply part of what they are trying to gain.

With this in mind some are saying the Djinn blade confers an extra 2 attacks even if you are not using it in CC. The reason for thinking this is because of the word 'bearer' in the Djinn blade's description.

So if an archon has a pistol in one hand, a husk blade in the other he would normally get +1 atk for 2 CCW for a total of 5. A Djinn blade, according to the above, would bequeath another 2 attacks for a total of 7. 8 on the charge.

If that archon goes into CC using his husk blade, which causes instant death, do you really want to risk that? If you roll double for the Djinn blades 2 attacks they auto hit the Archon. If you fail even 1 of those 2 saves, your Archon is dead because of using the husk blade.

This is why I think you do not get those 2 extra attacks just from having a Djinn blade on the model. It is too convoluted trying to keep it all straight. While the rules do not prohibit this it all just seems gamey to me. The rules only prohibit an extra +1 atk for using 2 special CCW.

Hmm, I think I just convinced myself that it does work... but as someone else said earlier, it's an expensive way to get an extra attack. I still would not play it as such unless an FAQ allows it.

I generally think of the Djinn blade as acting (in some sense) like a servo arm. You don't really use it as a weapon (just wait, I'll get to that part), it just adds some bonus attacks that - unlike the servo arm - act like additional attacks from whatever weapon you ARE using.

The bonus here is that if you don't have anything else, the Djinn blade is ALSO a power weapon, so you don't have to pay for crap twice. Then of course it also has it's own caveats - in this case "it can backfire" - similar to the way a Servo Arm strikes at I1.

I see no reason to not allow the bonus attacks until the issue get's FAQ'd (if at all). It's certainly not game-breaking (it can be quite good, but it's not an all-powerful combination).

nosferatu1001 wrote:DR - either you use the rules presented, or models with 3 CCW cannot attack.

The rules presented make you CHOOSE which weapons you are going to fight with. One of those choices is which special weapon to use. AS SOON as you make that choice you are prevented from ever getting the bonus attack.

Note that if you are wielding/Using 'Two different special weapons' you have to chose between which one to attack with.

It even goes on to say '(such is the penalty for wielding too many complex weapons)'

So if you are not wielding/using that set of weapons, you can not use the rules for that set of weapons.

and by the rules have to use the rules for what you are wielding/Using in CC.

Choosing which to fight with assumes you are wielding/Using 'Two different special weapons' which clearly is not the case if you are wielding/Using any of the other options.

Xca|iber wrote:I generally think of the Djinn blade as acting (in some sense) like a servo arm. You don't really use it as a weapon (just wait, I'll get to that part), it just adds some bonus attacks that - unlike the servo arm - act like additional attacks from whatever weapon you ARE using.

The bonus here is that if you don't have anything else, the Djinn blade is ALSO a power weapon, so you don't have to pay for crap twice. Then of course it also has it's own caveats - in this case "it can backfire" - similar to the way a Servo Arm strikes at I1.

I see no reason to not allow the bonus attacks until the issue get's FAQ'd (if at all). It's certainly not game-breaking (it can be quite good, but it's not an all-powerful combination).

There's a reason why it is listed in it's own section, not with any other close combat weapons.

It's an accessory that's clipped onto your belt, if you will. It makes the attacks on it's own, because the sword is a "character".

I'm inclined to agree with your assessment. A servo arm with it's own caveat is a great way to put it.

Except it is a power weapon, so is something you would use normally potentially.

DR - been here before. You like to ignore key rules, I dont.

And a Servo Arm is a power fist. It works on its own.

You seem to be forgetign one thing, the Djinn blade is a Power weapon, and unrelated to that, it grants +2A, if you were to field another special close combat weapon and decided to use that weapons bonuses you would still keep the +2A, because theres nothign related between the +2A and power weapon status of the Gjinn blade, and even though youre not allowed to use the Djinn blades power weapon status (because youre using another weapon) it is still a close combat weapon, conferring the traditional +1A bonus for additional close combat weapons

DarknessEternal wrote:And a Servo Arm is a power fist. It works on its own.

And,unlike a servo harness, the Djinn blade simply alters the number of attacks you have, as well as acting as a power weapon, and the extra attacks can use special weapons such as Huskbalde.

So, very different to a servoharness.

Guys, chill out. It was just a metaphor.

I just wanted to point out that the bonus attacks are, in a sense, a separate set of attacks made by the Archon (they are rolled separately, etc), and that although they use the profile of whatever weapon the Archon chooses to use, they are an "independent" set of attacks.

The Djinn Blade's status as a power weapon, then, has nothing to do with the bonuses it imparts on the bearer. It's more of an "extra perk" (IMHO) that means the Archon doesn't need to buy any additional weapons if they so choose.

I wasn't trying to say that Djinn Blades were Servo Arms in any way other than the similarity between the "independence" of their bonus attacks.

Personally I think it's either going to be FAQ'd into two bonus PW attacks which aren't affected by a Huskblade, or turned into a giant pile of 'yay I can have +2a and nothing wooooo.'

I repeat I do not think the bonus attacks from a djinn blade should use the bonuses from your other CCWs.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except it is a power weapon, so is something you would use normally potentially.

DR - been here before. You like to ignore key rules, I dont.

Yes, been here before, and I am not ignoring anything. It does not cover what happens when someone has 3 or more CCW's

so we have to infer what rules to use, aka house rule.

So, what's the logic train that says a Djin blade transcends the rules for using multiple Special CCW?

Say an Archon has a Blaster, Agoniser, and Djin Blade. In CC he would have a choice of 4 power weapon attacks that wound on 4+, OR 6 power weapon attacks (2 of which are rolled separately as a double makes it back fire)

Not 4 agoniser attacks with the Djin blade extra two