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I've been a slave to my CSM for ever and have a regular opponent who has turned to the darkside. He has begun to field a CSM army of his own now!
This is where it gets tricky. He fields a huge amount of daemons.
2 x 6bloodletters
1 x 20bloodletters
1 x Skarbrand
1 x Daemon Prince

all summoned...

Needless to say by the third turn all my units have been assaulted and are dead or in combat. Fielding Zerkers is pointless now as they are the first to get eaten (I know! Their blood too is welcome). So what should I do?

The issue lies in whether he is fielding a CSM army with Daemon Army allies or is he fielding a Daemon army with CSM allies. As there are no official ally rules he's just pasting me by playing a CSM army with summoned Daemons from the Daemons Army codex! That's 96 power weapons!!!!!!!!

Frekin' Bloodletters!

CSM armies can't take allies from the Daemon codex. Daemon armies can't take allies from the CSM codex. CSMs get their own, much less powerful lesser daemons. Tell him to take one codex or the other; there's a reason you can't use both (they'd be too good!).

If he is running this as a Chaos Space Marines list along with regular marines he is cheating.

That list you left looks perfectly playable as a Daemons army though.

If you run a Chaos army yourself, have a codex, how can you not find this answer yourself?

Cheers dudes. You have echoed my own thoughts!
I should add my opponent also fields
1 x Lucious
1 x CSM unit
3 x Obli
1 x Dreadnaught

Maybe as a house rule he could take bloodletters and other daemons but at higher points cost or no summoning! Hmmmm

It does seem silly that a CSM army can't also field cult daemons...

Rochronos wrote:I've been a slave to my CSM for ever and have a regular opponent who has turned to the darkside. He has begun to field a CSM army of his own now!
This is where it gets tricky. He fields a huge amount of daemons.
2 x 6bloodletters
1 x 20bloodletters
1 x Skarbrand
1 x Daemon Prince

all summoned...

Needless to say by the third turn all my units have been assaulted and are dead or in combat. Fielding Zerkers is pointless now as they are the first to get eaten (I know! Their blood too is welcome). So what should I do?

The issue lies in whether he is fielding a CSM army with Daemon Army allies or is he fielding a Daemon army with CSM allies. As there are no official ally rules he's just pasting me by playing a CSM army with summoned Daemons from the Daemons Army codex! That's 96 power weapons!!!!!!!!

Frekin' Bloodletters!

Rules As Written he's not allowed to combine armies. the simplest solution here is to just tell him he can't do that. however if you want to stay on better terms with your friend and have a more enjoyable experience I think you should just try to beat what he's throwing at you, because the army he's running is fluffy and not at all broken. when berserkers fight bloodletters its all about the charge. I think you should look to your unique characteristics as a csm player to handle his army - he's good in close combat but has hardly any shooting. a couple of csm squads running around in rhinos with flamers will make short work of all those blood letters. use your flexibility to beat him, in other words, by shooting him to pieces at range and finishing up in close combat. skarbrand is obviously the priority target for your heavy weapons since he makes the whole army go berserk and he's a really strong fighter in his own right.

Looks more like he's running a Demon army and the OP is confusing them with CSM.

Eric

MagickalMemories wrote:Looks more like he's running a Demon army and the OP is confusing them with CSM.

Eric

Yes but then he posted this

Cheers dudes. You have echoed my own thoughts!
I should add my opponent also fields
1 x Lucious
1 x CSM unit
3 x Obli
1 x Dreadnaught

Maybe as a house rule he could take bloodletters and other daemons but at higher points cost or no summoning! Hmmmm

It does seem silly that a CSM army can't also field cult daemons...

which you cannot take with demons.


OP : Id say no to the house rule. If you allow him to use both codices then he will not only continue to be playing wrong, but be kicking your ass. Tell him if he wants to keep on taking that list, then you are now allowed to take 6HQ choices as your army, and take the BEST hq from any codex you choose. Id say Abbaddon/Calgar/Mephiston/Ghazkull would be a nice start anyways.


(edited so many times because Im slightly slowed lol)

Remember that if you or your opponent are planning on using two Force Organization Charts, then you have two take a minimum of four Troops choices, or two from each, which tends to balance for all the extra HQ and Heavy Support by sucking up points.

Furthermore remember that only Summoned Lesser Daemons and Summoned Greater Daemons can assault in the turn they arrive from reserves, while no Chaos Daemons can do so.

I think the house rule would be ok. the combined army is good but its not broken. it makes sense in the context of the fluff and its just a game anyway.

Well if you house rule it, and make sure he has to follow BOTH FOC on the armies sure its fine. Hell Ive played against someone doing something similar with a really fluffy SM army he made up.

The problem here, is I remember correctly, is that when you use the Summoning rules in the CSM codex, your daemons can charge on the turn their summoned, you also HAVE to use an Icon to summon them, and they never scatter. You'll get a huge bonus if you're using these rules, but with Codex: Daemons units. Part of the CC effectiveness of Codex Daemons is offset by the fact that they can't assault on the turn they are summoned - if your friend is summoning them just like CSM lesser daemons then he's getting a huge advantage that shouldn't be there.

I'd get him to play by the bloody rules. If you DO want to take both Daemons and CSM in the army, play it as a 'mutiple detachment' game - two FOCs for two armies. But remember that the Daemon army will be using the Daemon codex rules - can't assault on the turn they arrive, always scatters and uses Deep Strike rules, half the army turns up on turn 1 etc.

KingCracker wrote:

Yes but then he posted this

Cheers dudes. You have echoed my own thoughts!
I should add my opponent also fields
1 x Lucious
1 x CSM unit
3 x Obli
1 x Dreadnaught

Maybe as a house rule he could take bloodletters and other daemons but at higher points cost or no summoning! Hmmmm

It does seem silly that a CSM army can't also field cult daemons...

What?
How DARE you expect me to read past the first post!!!!

You are SOOO close to being reported!


Eric

Well, just remeber Skarbrand lets you re-roll aswell!

Tell him to use the summoned daemon profiles in the CSM codex. None of this hellblade nonsense!

MagickalMemories wrote:

KingCracker wrote:

Yes but then he posted this

Cheers dudes. You have echoed my own thoughts!
I should add my opponent also fields
1 x Lucious
1 x CSM unit
3 x Obli
1 x Dreadnaught

Maybe as a house rule he could take bloodletters and other daemons but at higher points cost or no summoning! Hmmmm

It does seem silly that a CSM army can't also field cult daemons...

What?
How DARE you expect me to read past the first post!!!!

You are SOOO close to being reported!


Eric

That would be the most epic reason to report someone

"BUT...... BUT........ he posted something I missed!"

He is not following the rules but if your fine with than why not. I would go with more bolters and if you hid your squads in cover they will be able to attack before the bloodletters attack.

ArbitorIan wrote:The problem here, is I remember correctly, is that when you use the Summoning rules in the CSM codex, your daemons can charge on the turn their summoned, you also HAVE to use an Icon to summon them, and they never scatter. You'll get a huge bonus if you're using these rules, but with Codex: Daemons units. Part of the CC effectiveness of Codex Daemons is offset by the fact that they can't assault on the turn they are summoned - if your friend is summoning them just like CSM lesser daemons then he's getting a huge advantage that shouldn't be there.

I'd get him to play by the bloody rules. If you DO want to take both Daemons and CSM in the army, play it as a 'mutiple detachment' game - two FOCs for two armies. But remember that the Daemon army will be using the Daemon codex rules - can't assault on the turn they arrive, always scatters and uses Deep Strike rules, half the army turns up on turn 1 etc.

Where does it say that CSM daemons can charge on the turn they are summoned?
-EDIT- Just looked through my friends codex and I just saw sorry must have missed that page

I'm going to agree with most of the other posters.

This is not allowed in a standard 40k game. You can't mix-and-match across multiple codexes, even if they are "allies". Would your friend be okay with you fielding IG tanks or Long Fangs in a BA army?

If you want to allow this, go right ahead. Play an apocalypse game. But, both players should be aware that they're playing apoc. You can't have 1 player fielding apoc and the other player not