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Can Skulltaker kill a plague furnance with killing blow in a challenge.

I asked this question in the tactics section and was told yes. Problem is this question came up due to a rules lawyer in my local meta and I'm not sure how to prove that he can.

Opponents arguement that Taker can NOT Killing Blow PF
- its a warmachine and warmachines don't get killing blowed
- killing blow specifically states "creature", a plague furnance is not a creature
- a PF is a unique model and therefore not subject to Takers ability

My arguement that he CAN
- a plague priest has to accept a challenge and uses the PF as a mount
- although large Takers ability states he doesn't care how big you are
- if its involved in the duel you should be able to KB it
- I really, really, really want it too

It isnt a warmachine, for a start.

It is explicitly stated to be a mount. Problem solved.

But then only the plauge Priest dies if in a challenge...?

I tried to play Devil's Advocate but really couldn't find anything that would even be arguable.

As long as Skulltaker has Heroic Killing Blow (or equivalent wording, I haven't read the DoC army book so I don't know), he can challenge the Plague Priest, and then attack the mount if he so desires. It seems sort of strange, but "them's the breaks" so to speak.

Totally legal. The Skaven book specifically classifies the Bell and Furnace as a mount. It is not listed as a war machine anywhere. Character mounts that can be targetted separately, such as the Bell and Furnace, are fair game for the Skulltaker to take its.. er.. skull?

Of course this is really most pertinent to the Furnace since a Grey Seer would just deny the challenge anyway.

Can someone tell me the wording on Skulltaker's ability? I've never seen it, so I'm kinda flying blind here.


edit: It's not a huge deal, as long as his ability basically gives him Heroic Killing Blow, which works on anything but swarms.

streamdragon wrote:Can someone tell me the wording on Skulltaker's ability? I've never seen it, so I'm kinda flying blind here.

The "creatures" part is why the other players may be advising the Furnace is not an eligible target since fluff-wise it's a construct. I'll have to read the Skaven book again for better details on how these interact.

Edit:

After looking through the Skaven book, both the Screaming Bell and Plague Furnace entries simply state that it is a unique mount. It never determines that it is a creature or a war machine in the traditional sense of the phrases. That being said, everything about the combat rules of the Furnace/Bell is closer to a "creature" mount than a war machine. Just as a side note, there is no definition of "creature" in the rulebook. As another side note, Heroic Killing blow states "It functions exactly like a normal Killing Blow, except it works on any creature, regardless of size and troop type, except for swarms.

War Machine: Wounds determined by number of infantry crew (I say infantry because I can think of no war machine that has non-infantry). Attacks are made against the crew, not the War Machine itself. Only up to 6 infantry models (less for larger models) may attack with no supporting attacks beyond this, no matter base size or units in contact. Close combat attacks are directed against Crew toughness. Shooting attacks all hit the War Machine. No War Machine has a character rider to randomize to.

Monstrous Mount: Has its own statline separate from the rider. Ranged attacks can randomize to the rider. Close combat attacks can be directed toward the mount or the rider. Only separable from its rider by death. All models in base contact (and supporting models) can make attacks against the mount.

Bell/Furnace: Wounds, Toughness, and Leadership are not determined by crew; Initiative, Attacks, and Weapon Skill determined by crew. Full statline is separate from the rider. Ranged attacks can randomize to the rider. Close combat attacks can be directed toward the mount or the rider. Only separable from its rider by death. All models in base contact (and supporting models) can make attacks against the mount.

One unit analogous to the Bell/Furnace in the Skaven book is the Doomwheel. It has nearly the same rules as far as its statline and combat rules just without the rider to randomize to on top. My guess is if you asked most people if the Doomwheel is susceptible to Heroic Killing Blow they would say it is. I could be wrong, though.

Ruleswise, Skulltaker can even KB swarms, if he can find some to challenge that is, as his special brand of KP kills everything. Oh and according to the BRB bestiary the furnace, bell and wheel are all unit type unique, none are warmachines.

The only argument you could make that would work would be what follows (Just to be clear I am of the opinion that he absolutely can KB the Plaguefurnace/Bell):

- Skulltaker does not have Heroic Killing Blow (just a special version of Killing Blow)
- Plaguefurnace / Bell are War Machines

If both were true, then the RAW would mean that the War Machine is not a creature, and since he does not specifically have Heroic Killing blow he cannot KB a War Machine. If either statement is false, then he can KB the furnace / bell

As pointed out in the 2nd post of the thread (thanks Nos ) The furnace / bell are mounts, not war machines.

If you are of the opinion that what Skulltaker has is actually heroic killing blow, then he CAN KB war machines. Assuming of course they were in a challenge with him.

FAQ
Q: If a war machine is attacked by a model with the Heroic Killing Blow special rule, and the attacker rolls a 6 to wound, are all remaining wounds on the war machine lost? (p72)
A: Yes.

So you can indeed heroic killing blow any war machine.

Lehnsherr wrote:FAQ
Q: If a war machine is attacked by a model with the Heroic Killing Blow special rule, and the attacker rolls a 6 to wound, are all remaining wounds on the war machine lost? (p72)
A: Yes.

So you can indeed heroic killing blow any war machine.

Even if someone wants to fuss that Skulltaker doesn't have Heroic Killing Blow, just a specific version of it, the wording of both is nearly exactly the same and both include to term "creature".

So... yeah, it's pretty clear you can Hulk Smash! that furnace into bits, assuming the Skaven player doesn't just feed you his unit champ.

thank you everyone for your response.

This verifies what I thought to be true but was unsure how to prove. The biggest problem was a workaround unit type unique and wether the PF/Bell could be challenged. The challenge part is important due to the fact that RAW 'taker only has normal KB outside a challenge. This means that 'taker definately cannot KB the PF/Bell outside a challenge. That of course was the biggest confusion since no challenge means no KB on the PF/Bell.

Since it is being ridden though, can't you declare a challenge and then direct some or all attacks at the mount instead of the rider? Granted, splitting might not be as efficient, but depending on your number of attacks might well be worth it to avoid overkilling the rat man 20 times over

Wehr, the discussion wasn't concerning whether you can direct attacks against it or not, it was whether the Skulltaker could smash it with one 5+ to wound since fluff-wise a furnace is not a "creature". And the answer is yes, you can.

So by this logic, he can KB a chariot. As a chariot can be a mount too.

Sorry, I was referring more to the challenge thing, that you challenge the model (including mount) and not just the character part of the model.

If you do kill the character though, can you challenge the mount next round?

cptjoeyg wrote:So by this logic, he can KB a chariot. As a chariot can be a mount too.

Yes he can.
And anyone heroic killing blow can do in normal chariots as well.

Wehrkind wrote:Sorry, I was referring more to the challenge thing, that you challenge the model (including mount) and not just the character part of the model.

If you do kill the character though, can you challenge the mount next round?

The challenge continues until all of the models involved on one side are killed. As the rider and mount are both in the challenge, you would continue next round and could only attack the mount. If you kill the character, the unit breaks escapes and rallies before you attack it again you cannot challenge the mount (as it is not a character).

And to be perfectly accurate, you issue a challenge and the other player decides who will accept. It's only if he declines that you determine who was challenged (and hides in the rear).

Ahhh ok that's the part I was missing, that challenges just keep going till one side dies. I was thinking they had to be reissued every turn.

Thanks!