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So, I know troop choices have to be compared in the context of the army they each belong to, but is anyone else looking at the fact Kabalite Warriors cost 1pt more than Guardians, but get +1WS, +1BS, +1Init, Night Vision and Power from Pain and swap shuriken catapults for splinter rifles and thinking, "I have to pay 8 points for this dross, when they get that for 9? How is that fair?"

How about comparing Dire Avengers and Kabalite Warriors? Pay an extra 3 points to gain +1LD (edit: and improve the armour save by 1), but lose Night Vision and Power from Pain and swap Splinter Rifles for Avenger Catapults. Okay, Avenger Catapults are Assault Weapons, but they have 6" less range, are not poisoned.

I've not considered the different options the two troop types have, but if you want to give me cool options, make me pay for the cool options if I take them, not the fact I can take them if I want. I'd actually argue that Kabalite Warriors have better optional extras too. The only thing I would miss would be Bladestorm for the Avengers, but overall I don't think it balances out the other options.

There is also the fact that Kabalite Warriors have a wider range if possible unit size than either Guardians or Avengers.

Do you think that some of the other choices in the Eldar codex make Guardians and Avengers better than they would be if they replaced Kabalite Warriors in the Dark Eldar list? I can see an argument that Farseers can multiply the effectiveness of both troop types, but if so, make me pay more for my Farseer, not my troops, surely? Unless you want to argue that troops gain more from Farseers than FA, Elites, etc... but that seems an odd idea to me.

I'll keep playing Eldar, as despite their awesome models, the Dark Eldar just don't inspire me. I just feel a bit peeved and wanted to vent.

Happy to listen to ideas about why the points cost of Guardians and Avengers is perfectly justified, as I'd quite like to feel less peeved, to be honest.

Eldar troops are an overpriced liability. They have been for a while. Dire Avengers are the best of the worst. Even then, kitting them out is far to expensive. Min squads in Wave Serpents is the best Eldar can do at the moment. Overpriced troops and transports in a game that relies heavily on both hurts that codex.

I was crying yesterday when I saw the sheer volume of models DE can put out that regular eldar can't-and the darkies are far superior in ability, not just price! They even cost less (monetarily) than regular Eldar! Skip the Grey Knights, move right to the Eldar next (I know, it isn't happening)

Ask your friends if you can write your own more reasonable Eldar Codex. It's what all the cool kids are doing.

Fifty wrote:So, I know troop choices have to be compared in the context of the army they each belong to, but is anyone else looking at the fact Kabalite Warriors cost 1pt more than Guardians, but get +1WS, +1BS, +1Init, Night Vision and Power from Pain and swap shuriken catapults for splinter rifles and thinking, "I have to pay 8 points for this dross, when they get that for 9? How is that fair?"

How about comparing Dire Avengers and Kabalite Warriors? Pay an extra 3 points to gain +1LD, but lose Night Vision and Power from Pain and swap Splinter Rifles for Avenger Catapults. Okay, Avenger Catapults are Assault Weapons, but they have 6" less range, are not poisoned.

I've not considered the different options the two troop types have, but if you want to give me cool options, make me pay for the cool options if I take them, not the fact I can take them if I want. I'd actually argue that Kabalite Warriors have better optional extras too. The only thing I would miss would be Bladestorm for the Avengers, but overall I don't think it balances out the other options.

There is also the fact that Kabalite Warriors have a wider range if possible unit size than either Guardians or Avengers.

Do you think that some of the other choices in the Eldar codex make Guardians and Avengers better than they would be if they replaced Kabalite Warriors in the Dark Eldar list? I can see an argument that Farseers can multiply the effectiveness of both troop types, but if so, make me pay more for my Farseer, not my troops, surely? Unless you want to argue that troops gain more from Farseers than FA, Elites, etc... but that seems an odd idea to me.

I'll keep playing Eldar, as despite their awesome models, the Dark Eldar just don't inspire me. I just feel a bit peeved and wanted to vent.

Happy to listen to ideas about why the points cost of Guardians and Avengers is perfectly justified, as I'd quite like to feel less peeved, to be honest.

I have to be honest here...

Welcome to 1998.

You JUST realized that the Dark Eldar Warriors are better than Eldar Guardians?

Guardians have to be THE worst basic trooper in the game. I don't know what crack smoking tool decided to make their basic gun ONLY 12" to begin with....

timetowaste85 wrote:I was crying yesterday when I saw the sheer volume of models DE can put out that regular eldar can't-and the darkies are far superior in ability, not just price! They even cost less (monetarily) than regular Eldar! Skip the Grey Knights, move right to the Eldar next (I know, it isn't happening)

Warriors have been 8 points in the old DE dex for 12 years. DE have been a horde army for the longest if you choose to play it that way....

DarknessEternal wrote:Ask your friends if you can write your own more reasonable Eldar Codex. It's what all the cool kids are doing.

Just go back to the old one, its what my kids are doing....

freecloud wrote:Just go back to the old one, its what my kids are doing....

2nd edition I assume?

I knew Warriors were "unfair" in comparison to Guardians a few years back.

On a somewhat less than serious note, the most fun that comes from playing a Craftworld Eldar list against a Dark Eldar list comes when the Dark Eldar player belatedly realizes that you equipped many of your heavy weapon choices as EMLs, and you can "reach out and touch" his raiders at 36".

I never had the old DE Codex, so I never realised this was an issue before, but I did look at Orks and wonder how they cost six points when Guardians cost eight points.

It wouldn't be so bad if I thought Eldar had advantages elsewhere, but as I compare the two codices, I see lots of clear "wins" in the DE Codex, but only some debatable victories and ties for the Craftworld Codex.

I find it kinda funny and ironic that DE now overtook the Craftworld Eldar codex when before it was the other way around. As for reasonably priced troops, Pathfinders are pretty good. when in cover they're pretty durable and have two types of rending on their guns. The only thing they cant handle are hordes and Tanks, but a Wraithlord and Banshees should do that pretty easily.

Wraithlord? I thought they were considered "pretty bad" and most people took fire prisms in 3s?

I've always gotten "angry fist" from my buddy who plays CW eldar about this mismatch. I think a better question is whether the gap has widened or shortened with the "poisoning" of splinter weaponry but the "balancing" of darklight weaponry availability in the basic squad (not trueborn).

BuFFo wrote:

freecloud wrote:Just go back to the old one, its what my kids are doing....

2nd edition I assume?

The one before last - Eldar troops made more sense when a starcannon had 3 shots, not 2, as that meant 2 units could guarantee dropping 3 SM a bound, so 2 bounds in and you'd shot down a squad.

Better artwork, more flexible and awesome Exarchs, affordable Phoenix lords.... Yep Eldar 3rd ed. was pretty sweet.

Yes, but Dire Avengers have a 4+. And Kaballites don't.
So we die from bolters worse than you do.
HA!

Mr. Self Destruct wrote:Yes, but Dire Avengers have a 4+. And Kaballites don't.
So we die from bolters worse than you do.
HA!

no, we don't. Those bolters are already dead.

Mr. Self Destruct wrote:Yes, but Dire Avengers have a 4+. And Kaballites don't.
So we die from bolters worse than you do.
HA!

Oh yeah, I knew that but left it out. Still seems a big difference for three points compred to what the Warriors get for 1 compared to Guardians.

No you are rightfully irked. Our troop options are horrible when compared toothers. I would rather have a Guardsman with first-rank-fire/second-rank-fire and a 24" range than a 12" shuricat Guardian squishy toy. Or an ork sluggaboy with a T4 and a Ld10+ both for almost half the price. Dire Avengers with a wave serpent, bladestorm, and 'doom' are viable but that's about it, and its an extensive combo to include an HQ just to make it bite. Rangers used to be cool until the proliferation and ease of just about anybody to deepstrike a flamer anywhere near them. Guardians just suck and suck more and then suck.

It's time the Eldar faced the reality of codex creep and what better way than to make it blunt and in your face than by giving all the new armies better and cheaper variants, especially their embarassing cousins. Harlequins, falcons, special characters, rangers, fleet-of-foot, Eldrad, all of our supposed psykic superiority, ... ALL of our staple 'heavy' picks in the army list, all of our staples got nerfed in one way or another by a rules change or another army that can do it cheaper and better, or a change in gameplay that heavily emphasises deepstrikes (now far less risky), troop spam (theirs are cheaper), 'run' (making fleet obsolete except for assault), new rends rules, vehicle weapon configuration making the second falcon gun an expensive waste, and underslung shuricannons than will never fire, and such.

Still, unchanged is that we can take 80 points of fire dragons in a 105 point tank and scare anyone with it. At least they left us one good solid competative mean streak.

but hey on the bright side... we could always do what the SMurfs do and proxy our army as a different version of Eldar... our better-cheaper dark cousins... as is what occured with BA and SW to the nilla SM.

Not 100% sure what to say about this, yeah your gaurdians are pretty bad atleast dire avengers are still okay problem is your dying race has a militia which they give pretty bad weaponry to (makes no sense to me) however consider this your dire avengers do have a 4+ save that is definately better than the usual DE save. I play DE and I havent fought Eldar alot but I can tell you banshees will help, and firedragons arent really needed. As for troop I'd say either guardian jetbikers, dire avengers in wave serpents, or their snipers (possibly with pathfinder might help) Part of me wants to say Dire Avengers would be good because they have 48 inch range, Fire Prisims are good too but youd have to be able to keep them out of lance fire. Warpspiders will also be of help provided the exarch has surprise attack. Another bit of advise would be dont go double farseer with council it's too expensive and frankly DE are dangerous in CC, I'd vote for Maugan Ra with some reapers (reapers are looking good against DE) and/or an Autarch. Just throwing suggestions trying to help but dont worry not all is lost

As for what Guitardian just ignore him, just because the DE got updated and are looking very good DOES NOT mean you just jump ship if you love eldar then dont let this irk you (granted I fully understand what the OP means I was kinda wondering "what the?" when I compared new DE to Craftworld Eldar)

Hmm... going to have to weigh in and defend Dire Avengers in a direct comparrison to Kabalites. One of the key things I think you're missing is that their Avenger Catapults have a Strength value. Compare that to Splinter Rifles and I know which side I'd rather be on in a point for point battle. Raiders also look pretty flimsy against multiple S4 shots.

Dire Avengers also have that 4+ armour save, so again they are more suvivable than their Kabalite counterparts. Indeed when they face off against each other, Avengers will be hitting on 3+, wounding on a 3+ and can ignore the Kabalites armour save. The DE on the other hand will hit on a 3+, wound on a 4+ and still lose 50% of those wounds to the Avengers armour.

So IMHO, don't go running off to the dark side just yet.

As for Guardians, yes they are hang up from the original fluff and it is evident that GW still aren't sure what to do with them in gaming terms.

Flashman wrote:Hmm... going to have to weigh in and defend Dire Avengers in a direct comparrison to Kabalites. One of the key things I think you're missing is that their Avenger Catapults have a Strength value. Compare that to Splinter Rifles and I know which side I'd rather be on in a point for point battle. Raiders also look pretty flimsy against multiple S4 shots.

Dire Avengers also have that 4+ armour save, so again they are more suvivable than their Kabalite counterparts. Indeed when they face off against each other, Avengers will be hitting on 3+, wounding on a 3+ and can ignore the Kabalites armour save. The DE on the other hand will hit on a 3+, wound on a 4+ and still lose 50% of those wounds to the Avengers armour.

So IMHO, don't go running off to the dark side just yet.

As for Guardians, yes they are hang up from the original fluff and it is evident that GW still aren't sure what to do with them in gaming terms.

You make a good point but their range still is 18 inches so that kinda hurts and raiders can easily keep you out of their distance (add a nightshield and well that is 6inches subtracted from your range) so they can fly around and gun you down easy, also while they may be wounding on 4s those 4s are re-rollable because they are poisonsed and you are T3 and because Kabilite warriors are S3 I can re-roll to wound you so you are kinda down on that part. But yea dont go to the dark side eldar have no lost hope just change it up like I said reapers are looking good for you guys just a thought.

I'm not sure about you Flashman but if I had warriors that WEREN'T in cover I'd make sure they had a pain token.

You have to take cover into consideration when you make these calculations, as it's so prevalent now you should really be expecting everything to be using it. Don't forget you can upgrade the warriors weapons, which is the main selling point of them.

You want troops that are holding an objective to be doing something. Imperial Guard can take plenty of shots at anything that starts to move close to them, but Guardians have to wait till most things are in the killing zone before they can fire. Fail to kill or route what you are shooting at, and you'll be assaulted and killed before you know what's going on.

Jetbikes are possibly the only good Eldar Troops choice now. They have the toughness, the mobility, the armour an a decent amount of firepower.

zonino wrote:I'm not sure about you Flashman but if I had warriors that WEREN'T in cover I'd make sure they had a pain token.

You have to take cover into consideration when you make these calculations, as it's so prevalent now you should really be expecting everything to be using it. Don't forget you can upgrade the warriors weapons, which is the main selling point of them.

You want troops that are holding an objective to be doing something. Imperial Guard can take plenty of shots at anything that starts to move close to them, but Guardians have to wait till most things are in the killing zone before they can fire. Fail to kill or route what you are shooting at, and you'll be assaulted and killed before you know what's going on.

Jetbikes are possibly the only good Eldar Troops choice now. They have the toughness, the mobility, the armour an a decent amount of firepower.

Exactly, although as a DE player if I had my warriors in the open with or without the token I'd be feeling I'm not doing something smart period. I mean as DE I have speed, ranged, and re-rollable to wound basic guns against most of your infantry thats the biggest issue. As for bikers yes they are definately worth it granted different playstyle but hey atleast your really fast and guardain jetbikers have a 3+ as for the council on bikes all I have to say is beware any haemonculus who has the crucible of maladiction (that or lady malys whom really shines against Eldar)

Also zonino epic pic man

freecloud wrote:

BuFFo wrote:

freecloud wrote:Just go back to the old one, its what my kids are doing....

2nd edition I assume?

The one before last - Eldar troops made more sense when a starcannon had 3 shots, not 2, as that meant 2 units could guarantee dropping 3 SM a bound, so 2 bounds in and you'd shot down a squad.

You mean 3rd edition then.

No rerolls, as they are S:X ranged guns.

Oh, there is no way I'll be jumping ship from Eldar. I had my first Eldar models before the Eldar Codex was released for 2nd Ed. I was playing a White Dwarf army until then, and Warp Spiders and Shining Spears didn't even exist. I still remember the day the codex came out. I was so pissed that Dark Reapers went up from 65 to 67 points, because it put their cost up to 201points for a unit, which gave away an extra victory point. I may have had an 14 year gap, but I do have over 18,000 points of Craftworld Eldar.

I still remember how I used to dream of Dark Eldar coming out. I wanted them to be all piratey and cool, not space-vampires. Although the new models are awesome, I am more likely to use Craftworld models to represent a pirate raiding party of Craftworld Eldar than go with Dark Eldar fluff.

ShadowZetki wrote:

Flashman wrote:Hmm... going to have to weigh in and defend Dire Avengers in a direct comparrison to Kabalites. One of the key things I think you're missing is that their Avenger Catapults have a Strength value. Compare that to Splinter Rifles and I know which side I'd rather be on in a point for point battle. Raiders also look pretty flimsy against multiple S4 shots.

Dire Avengers also have that 4+ armour save, so again they are more suvivable than their Kabalite counterparts. Indeed when they face off against each other, Avengers will be hitting on 3+, wounding on a 3+ and can ignore the Kabalites armour save. The DE on the other hand will hit on a 3+, wound on a 4+ and still lose 50% of those wounds to the Avengers armour.

So IMHO, don't go running off to the dark side just yet.

As for Guardians, yes they are hang up from the original fluff and it is evident that GW still aren't sure what to do with them in gaming terms.

You make a good point but their range still is 18 inches so that kinda hurts and raiders can easily keep you out of their distance (add a nightshield and well that is 6inches subtracted from your range) so they can fly around and gun you down easy, also while they may be wounding on 4s those 4s are re-rollable because they are poisonsed and you are T3 and because Kabilite warriors are S3 I can re-roll to wound you so you are kinda down on that part. But yea dont go to the dark side eldar have no lost hope just change it up like I said reapers are looking good for you guys just a thought.

I'm slightly confused about this, where you say that Warriors can re-roll to wound. Why would they get to re-roll to-wound?

With normal poisoned weapons when S >= T the player w/ the poisoned weapon get's to re-roll the wounds. But for the DE splinter weapons they have a S of X so no re-roll.

Guardians in general are lacking. For 2 points more you can buy a Fire Warrior, who may have a worst profile for close combat, but gains better armor and a far superior gun. They cost too much to mass like guardsmen, but are not powerful enough to be competitive with their equivallents. Warlock Powers might balance this out, but they are really showing their age (especially if Fire Warriors outpace them).

Different units are different. Shocking.