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Monster Rain wrote:Wow, we're back to that again?

Tell me, do you think this is wrong?

http://articles.cnn.com/2009-05-18/world/nigeria.child.witchcraft_1_witches-nigeria-abuse?_s=PM:WORLD

Christian Eshiett was a rambunctious pre-teen who spent a lot of time cavorting with his friends in southern Nigeria. He would skip school and run away from home for days, frustrating his grandfather, who oversaw the boy's care.

"I beat him severely with canes until they broke, yet he never shed a tear," said Eshiett Nelson Eshiett, 76. "One day, I took a broom to hit him and he started crying. Then I knew he was possessed by demons. ... Nigerian witches are terrified of brooms.

From that day two years ago, Christian, now 14, was branded a witch. The abuse intensified.

"They would take my clothes off, tie me up and beat me," he told CNN in a telephone interview.

The teen is one of the so-called witch children in Eket, a city in oil-rich Akwa Ibom state of Nigeria.

They are blamed for causing illness, death and destruction, prompting some communities to put them through harrowing punishments to "cleanse" them of their supposed magical powers.

"Children accused of witchcraft are often incarcerated in churches for weeks on end and beaten, starved and tortured in order to extract a confession," said Gary Foxcroft, program director of Stepping Stones Nigeria, a nonprofit that helps alleged witch children in the region.

Many of those targeted have traits that make them stand out, including learning disabilities, stubbornness and ailments such as epilepsy, he added.

The issue of "child witches" is soaring in Nigeria and other parts of the world, Foxcroft said.

The states of Akwa Ibom and Cross River have about 15,000 children branded as witches, and most of them end up abandoned and abused on the streets, he said.

Christian ran away from home and wandered around for two years with other children similarly accused. He said they stole, begged for food and performed menial jobs to survive.

The plight of "child witches" is raising concern among aid organizations, including the United Nations.

"It is a growing issue worldwide, among not just African communities, but in countries such as Nepal as well," said Jeff Crisp, head of policy development and evaluation for the U.N. High Commissioner for Refugees. "We are trying to see whether it is a neglected protected issue."

Belief in witchcraft thrives worldwide. About 1,000 people accused of being witches in Gambia were locked in detention centers in March and forced to drink a dangerous hallucinogenic potion, human rights organization Amnesty International said.

If you think this is wrong, why? It's acceptable behavior in their culture. Who are you to criticize them?

And before you say it, I'm not equating it with internet codex piracy. I'm showing the silliness of "cultural relativist" arguments in general.

Ok, it is wrong.
But I am sure the people doing this thing are sure they are right. It is a religious thing for them, a "white/black" alternative. Once a child-witch is identified as such, there is no way you can argue. They are BAD, period. And they have rules, traditions, probably laws about it, so it is legal. It will be illegal to protect this people. You succeeded in showing us the leaks of "cultural relativist" arguments, but also showed us that local rules/laws/traditions can be silly or plain evil.

Another thing about "cultural relativist": to a certain extent, things like that happen world wide, even in your country (when if identified are branded as "crimes" instead of "logical behavior"). And there were a lot of witchhunting in both Europe and America some centuries ago. If your grand- grand-grandfathers were alive, probably you would have broken their hearts with your child-witch-liking.

please delete thanks.

micahaphone wrote:You are viewing something that is not yours, that you normally have to pay for. This is unfair to companies that depend upon their customers buying and paying for their materials. While it can be argued that GW makes more money off of models than codexes (most likely), they still make money off of them, so it is better to ask then to look.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just thought I'd say thank you for the good discussion.

But with that reasoning just looking at a friends codex is just as bad. The method of obtaining the information is different but you still get the same result.

Jesus Christ. I had hoped that this thread would disappear on it's own last night. It's not even fun to read any more.

Another six pages of divine absolution, another entry into the fray.

Well what to say...lets try to be objective shall we? There are generally two groups of people posting in this topic. One is passive, rather ignorant about individual impacts of their actions upon the society and in conclussion show arrogant posture to words like "rule", "obbey", "bow"...in general. When given chance to take without marginal impact upon the others they choose to do so and then expect that the rest of the audience will be tolerant no matter what. Lets call them "Bears during the winter hibernation."

Then there is the second group people, which can be identified clearly by flaming orations of divine retribution and vengeance with lightning shooting from their eyes and thunders coming from their bottoms. Their speeches are artificially constructed to be long as possible - quoting as much phrases they found on the internet as possible and IF possible also mentionning more latin words than overall latin vocabulary off last six generations in their familly. Lets call them "Preaching agressive evangelists."

None is objective, none is ultimately right and so none can be considered "good" in the end. So were left alone with the "lesser evil" option.

I am NOT a judge, althought I have an opinion I shall not bother anyone with it - let everyone alone choose his side and bear the consesquence of his actions...However many things were discussed with passion comparable to the one of mating pandas and were plain wrong in unimaginable manners - they actually almsot managed to create fifth dimension - Epic wrongness.

Several catches:
Our world do not posess star-trek technology. When you steal golden ingot from someone, you cant just "copy" new one to give it back. When laws about property were set - noone could never imagine what technology will exist later - as we cant imagine what could star-trek technology cause. Imagine world where golden ingots are everywhere. Absolutely everywhere - it is massed commodity lying in the fields, streets and is easily avaiable. What will happen if you will take one ingot from someone?

And yes laws. SO many people are quoting laws? And why? Did you ever see some lawyer which studied in foreign country practising law in yours? No you did not. Why? Because laws are very different in every country. Discussion about this has NO place in multi-cultural forum. ANYONE not realising this suffers such significant damage in common sense and ANY life experiences that it makes me want run away and shout in the streets naked : "KILL ME KILL ME AIR I CANT LIVE IN THE WORLD LIKE THIS."

Those who possess at least basic juristic knowledge are well aware that property in general, intelectual or physical is very problematic topic not just in their studies.

Many famous european scholars sacrificed their lifes for the idea that the children should not be taught in form of remembering every sentence in the book without actual understanding of their meaning. Many of you are spitting on their memory. Yes I am talking about you, and you and YOU! Yes and you as well...

If Socrates could be ressurected his head would immediately explode because of laughter. Many of you are PERFECT examples of daimonions and false inner calls. Platos presentation was just "PLAIN TIMLESSNESS EPICNESS OF DOOM". Typing philosophical quotes and leading meaningless debate without proper setup JUST to sound "superior" to those who did no study it is pathetic and does not make you look like "rawr rawr tough guy" to those who did. Philosophy should serve like simple concept, way to connect several ideas of our epoche together, understand it, then present it to the others and to give them purpose, reason or hope...

I noted one perfect example of woman which was persecuted by large company for uploading songs. Now my dear children, take hearth and prepare to face your maker(truth). Large company did not persecute her to uphold the law, they persecuted her because they could, they had power to do it, they did it to make money - cuz everyone needs money. It is all just about power, someone has it - someone does not. To frame her as a villain is just tactics. Who is actually stealing now from moral point of view? Woman - which did not do ANY damage or the company feeding upon her? You take things because YOU CAN. Hey I downloaded codex now. I live. Hey I downloaded song now. Still - I live. I did it because I can, they did it because THEY CAN. Motives are SAME at the both sides of the baricade. This is not about law, this is about POWER.

You know I took hash, lsd, cannabis, extasis, had un/protected sex (depens on your point of view what is wrong), got into the bloody fight with someone...list could go on I should certainly be punished by athletic naked women (2 or rather 3 should be enough to take me down). But you know what I CAN DO? I can take bottle of scotch, go on a bussines trip to our customer, have a nice talk with him, complain about world, how young are rude(being young myself), like violence and drugs are everywhere, pointing with finger from the window at every dude who comes around about his evillness - to become shinning example of morals myself. Am I saint? Certainly not. But I can do it. Beacause I have POWER to do it. Dont mess morality, laws and common sense together...Laws are excrement of those who hold power. When someone finds out YOU will be the sacrifice, symbol of evil.

Why am I even bothering, whole my post is an utter failure. Noone actually cares- carry on posting your 0% life experiences, point that I am wrong, evil, stupid blah blah blah...

Lexx wrote:

micahaphone wrote:You are viewing something that is not yours, that you normally have to pay for. This is unfair to companies that depend upon their customers buying and paying for their materials. While it can be argued that GW makes more money off of models than codexes (most likely), they still make money off of them, so it is better to ask then to look.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just thought I'd say thank you for the good discussion.

But with that reasoning just looking at a friends codex is just as bad. The method of obtaining the information is different but you still get the same result.

This.
Sharing in Internet works exactly as sharing in the real world. Only numbers change.

Edit: impressive post by Jolrael. Great analysis. "Laws are excrement of those who hold power". Harsh, but sometimes true. Do this classify you as a "Bear during the winter hibernation."?

Monster Rain wrote:Wow, we're back to that again?

Tell me, do you think this is wrong?

http://articles.cnn.com/2009-05-18/world/nigeria.child.witchcraft_1_witches-nigeria-abuse?_s=PM:WORLD

Christian Eshiett was a rambunctious pre-teen who spent a lot of time cavorting with his friends in southern Nigeria. He would skip school and run away from home for days, frustrating his grandfather, who oversaw the boy's care.

"I beat him severely with canes until they broke, yet he never shed a tear," said Eshiett Nelson Eshiett, 76. "One day, I took a broom to hit him and he started crying. Then I knew he was possessed by demons. ... Nigerian witches are terrified of brooms.

From that day two years ago, Christian, now 14, was branded a witch. The abuse intensified.

"They would take my clothes off, tie me up and beat me," he told CNN in a telephone interview.

The teen is one of the so-called witch children in Eket, a city in oil-rich Akwa Ibom state of Nigeria.

They are blamed for causing illness, death and destruction, prompting some communities to put them through harrowing punishments to "cleanse" them of their supposed magical powers.

"Children accused of witchcraft are often incarcerated in churches for weeks on end and beaten, starved and tortured in order to extract a confession," said Gary Foxcroft, program director of Stepping Stones Nigeria, a nonprofit that helps alleged witch children in the region.

Many of those targeted have traits that make them stand out, including learning disabilities, stubbornness and ailments such as epilepsy, he added.

The issue of "child witches" is soaring in Nigeria and other parts of the world, Foxcroft said.

The states of Akwa Ibom and Cross River have about 15,000 children branded as witches, and most of them end up abandoned and abused on the streets, he said.

Christian ran away from home and wandered around for two years with other children similarly accused. He said they stole, begged for food and performed menial jobs to survive.

The plight of "child witches" is raising concern among aid organizations, including the United Nations.

"It is a growing issue worldwide, among not just African communities, but in countries such as Nepal as well," said Jeff Crisp, head of policy development and evaluation for the U.N. High Commissioner for Refugees. "We are trying to see whether it is a neglected protected issue."

Belief in witchcraft thrives worldwide. About 1,000 people accused of being witches in Gambia were locked in detention centers in March and forced to drink a dangerous hallucinogenic potion, human rights organization Amnesty International said.

If you think this is wrong, why? It's acceptable behavior in their culture. Who are you to criticize them?

And before you say it, I'm not equating it with internet codex piracy. I'm showing the silliness of "cultural relativist" arguments in general.

It's not wrong at all. Those kids are obviously witches. The only thing possibly wrong about the situation is how those backward savages are going about extracting a confession. You have to get a lot more gruesome than just beating them and denying them food. Try some thumb screws, and maybe the Judas cradle, and then once they confess, burn them.

Stupid Nigerians.

Terminus wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:Wow, we're back to that again?

Tell me, do you think this is wrong?

http://articles.cnn.com/2009-05-18/world/nigeria.child.witchcraft_1_witches-nigeria-abuse?_s=PM:WORLD

Christian Eshiett was a rambunctious pre-teen who spent a lot of time cavorting with his friends in southern Nigeria. He would skip school and run away from home for days, frustrating his grandfather, who oversaw the boy's care.

"I beat him severely with canes until they broke, yet he never shed a tear," said Eshiett Nelson Eshiett, 76. "One day, I took a broom to hit him and he started crying. Then I knew he was possessed by demons. ... Nigerian witches are terrified of brooms.

From that day two years ago, Christian, now 14, was branded a witch. The abuse intensified.

"They would take my clothes off, tie me up and beat me," he told CNN in a telephone interview.

The teen is one of the so-called witch children in Eket, a city in oil-rich Akwa Ibom state of Nigeria.

They are blamed for causing illness, death and destruction, prompting some communities to put them through harrowing punishments to "cleanse" them of their supposed magical powers.

"Children accused of witchcraft are often incarcerated in churches for weeks on end and beaten, starved and tortured in order to extract a confession," said Gary Foxcroft, program director of Stepping Stones Nigeria, a nonprofit that helps alleged witch children in the region.

Many of those targeted have traits that make them stand out, including learning disabilities, stubbornness and ailments such as epilepsy, he added.

The issue of "child witches" is soaring in Nigeria and other parts of the world, Foxcroft said.

The states of Akwa Ibom and Cross River have about 15,000 children branded as witches, and most of them end up abandoned and abused on the streets, he said.

Christian ran away from home and wandered around for two years with other children similarly accused. He said they stole, begged for food and performed menial jobs to survive.

The plight of "child witches" is raising concern among aid organizations, including the United Nations.

"It is a growing issue worldwide, among not just African communities, but in countries such as Nepal as well," said Jeff Crisp, head of policy development and evaluation for the U.N. High Commissioner for Refugees. "We are trying to see whether it is a neglected protected issue."

Belief in witchcraft thrives worldwide. About 1,000 people accused of being witches in Gambia were locked in detention centers in March and forced to drink a dangerous hallucinogenic potion, human rights organization Amnesty International said.

If you think this is wrong, why? It's acceptable behavior in their culture. Who are you to criticize them?

And before you say it, I'm not equating it with internet codex piracy. I'm showing the silliness of "cultural relativist" arguments in general.

It's not wrong at all. Those kids are obviously witches. The only thing possibly wrong about the situation is how those backward savages are going about extracting a confession. You have to get a lot more gruesome than just beating them and denying them food. Try some thumb screws, and maybe the Judas cradle, and then once they confess, burn them.

Stupid Nigerians.

Do not be that harsh with Nigerians.
They do not have money for properly torturing witches. And the confession was not needed. They were afraid of brooms, what else you need?
And sure they haven´t burn them yet but maybe there is a good explanation. Perhaps they are turning them into an elite mind-wiped terror-combat unit for their many wars.

micahaphone wrote:Illegal stuff is illegal. doesn't matter if it is "stealing", it is still illegal. Sometimes you should go against the law (Gandhi, MLK, ect.), but I really doubt that you will be able to argue that piracy is morally correct (please do not take this as a challenge). If you want to find out about special rules, tips, or tricks for certain armies, why not ask? This is a great forum, and most game store owners are also glad to help out, as it (most likely) will help keep you in the hobby.

Are you a sockpuppet of Steelmage99? I could've sworn nosferatu and I just got done disabusing these very same notions. Have you read this thread?

micahaphone wrote:Illegal stuff is illegal.

Are you serious?

Lexx wrote:

micahaphone wrote:You are viewing something that is not yours, that you normally have to pay for. This is unfair to companies that depend upon their customers buying and paying for their materials. While it can be argued that GW makes more money off of models than codexes (most likely), they still make money off of them, so it is better to ask then to look.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just thought I'd say thank you for the good discussion.

But with that reasoning just looking at a friends codex is just as bad. The method of obtaining the information is different but you still get the same result.

Entirely true.

Jolrael wrote:Well what to say...lets try to be objective shall we?

Okay. This should be interesting.

Jolrael wrote:One is passive, rather ignorant... show arrogant posture...call them "Bears during the winter hibernation."
...flaming orations of divine retribution and vengeance with lightning shooting from their eyes and thunders coming from their bottoms..."Preaching agressive evangelists."

Do you even know what "objective" means? You said we should be objective, then you tried to lump every poster in this thread into two derogatory classifications (crappy classifications no less).

Jolrael wrote:And yes laws. SO many people are quoting laws? And why? Did you ever see some lawyer which studied in foreign country practising law in yours? No you did not. Why? Because laws are very different in every country. Discussion about this has NO place in multi-cultural forum. ANYONE not realising this suffers such significant damage in common sense and ANY life experiences that it makes me want run away and shout in the streets naked : "KILL ME KILL ME AIR I CANT LIVE IN THE WORLD LIKE THIS."

I could be mistaken, but piracy and theft are considered crimes throughout the western (and eastern) world. Point out a place in this thread where the difference in laws between two nations has caused a confusion.

Jorael wrote:Many famous european scholars sacrificed their lifes for the idea that the children should not be taught in form of remembering every sentence in the book without actual understanding of their meaning. Many of you are spitting on their memory. Yes I am talking about you, and you and YOU! Yes and you as well...

Really? Who?

Jorael wrote:If Socrates could be ressurected his head would immediately explode because of laughter. Many of you are PERFECT examples of daimonions and false inner calls. Platos presentation was just "PLAIN TIMLESSNESS EPICNESS OF DOOM". Typing philosophical quotes and leading meaningless debate without proper setup JUST to sound "superior" to those who did no study it is pathetic and does not make you look like "rawr rawr tough guy" to those who did. Philosophy should serve like simple concept, way to connect several ideas of our epoche together, understand it, then present it to the others and to give them purpose, reason or hope...

What are you on about? When has this happened? Ketara made some similar remarks, but hius argument was linguistic in nature.

Jorael wrote:I noted one perfect example of woman which was persecuted by large company for uploading songs. Now my dear children, take hearth and prepare to face your maker(truth). Large company did not persecute her to uphold the law, they persecuted her because they could, they had power to do it, they did it to make money - cuz everyone needs money. It is all just about power, someone has it - someone does not. To frame her as a villain is just tactics. Who is actually stealing now from moral point of view? Woman - which did not do ANY damage or the company feeding upon her? You take things because YOU CAN. Hey I downloaded codex now. I live. Hey I downloaded song now. Still - I live. I did it because I can, they did it because THEY CAN. Motives are SAME at the both sides of the baricade. This is not about law, this is about POWER.

Is that lightning coming from your rump? What does this have to do with anything? We've been discussing whether piracy is right or wrong, not whether people will do it or not.

Jorael wrote:You know I took hash, lsd, cannabis, extasis, had un/protected sex (depens on your point of view what is wrong), got into the bloody fight with someone...list could go on I should certainly be punished by athletic naked women (2 or rather 3 should be enough to take me down). But you know what I CAN DO? I can take bottle of scotch, go on a bussines trip to our customer, have a nice talk with him, complain about world, how young are rude(being young myself), like violence and drugs are everywhere, pointing with finger from the window at every dude who comes around about his evillness - to become shinning example of morals myself. Am I saint? Certainly not. But I can do it. Beacause I have POWER to do it. Dont mess morality, laws and common sense together...Laws are excrement of those who hold power. When someone finds out YOU will be the sacrifice, symbol of evil.

So, you lie and lack morals. What does this have to do with the thread?

Jorael wrote:Why am I even bothering, whole my post is an utter failure. Noone actually cares- carry on posting your 0% life experiences, point that I am wrong, evil, stupid blah blah blah...

Objectivity, thy name is Jorael.

what gets me about piracy is that the same people who do it complain about the price point of citadel miniatures. They're just making up in miniatures what you all steal in codices. You're not even saving any money.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:what gets me about piracy is that the same people who do it complain about the price point of citadel miniatures. They're just making up in miniatures what you all steal in codices. You're not even saving any money.

You're grossly overestimating both the impact of "piracy" and the impact on Game's Workshop's business. In fact, I'd hazard that second-hand sales which you see on this very forum and on e-Bay and so on has vastly more impact on their profits and it would not surprise me one bit if codex material is the least exposed to lost profit from external supplier sources.

Also, is it even illegal making use of products or reproductions which have not been physically stolen? As far as I am aware, only the reproduction or reciprocation of copyrighted material is illegal (i.e. sharing is illegal, but using material without sharing it to others, by whichever means you acquired it, is not illegal as long as the actual product does not belong to someone else - something immaterial property does not do.).

In other words, using scribd isn't illegal, merely morally questionable.

Mahtamori wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:what gets me about piracy is that the same people who do it complain about the price point of citadel miniatures. They're just making up in miniatures what you all steal in codices. You're not even saving any money.

You're grossly overestimating both the impact of "piracy" and the impact on Game's Workshop's business. In fact, I'd hazard that second-hand sales which you see on this very forum and on e-Bay and so on has vastly more impact on their profits and it would not surprise me one bit if codex material is the least exposed to lost profit from external supplier sources.

Also, is it even illegal making use of products or reproductions which have not been physically stolen? As far as I am aware, only the reproduction or reciprocation of copyrighted material is illegal (i.e. sharing is illegal, but using material without sharing it to others, by whichever means you acquired it, is not illegal as long as the actual product does not belong to someone else - something immaterial property does not do.).

In other words, using scribd isn't illegal, merely morally questionable.

This

The Dreadnote wrote:

Piracy you ask? See above. That's how we do it down here back home.

I find it quite funny that we wouldn't even be calling it piracy if it wasn't for actual pirates in history that made their living as THIEVES.

Mahtamori wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:what gets me about piracy is that the same people who do it complain about the price point of citadel miniatures. They're just making up in miniatures what you all steal in codices. You're not even saving any money.

You're grossly overestimating both the impact of "piracy" and the impact on Game's Workshop's business. In fact, I'd hazard that second-hand sales which you see on this very forum and on e-Bay and so on has vastly more impact on their profits and it would not surprise me one bit if codex material is the least exposed to lost profit from external supplier sources.

since you have gw's balance sheet in front of you can you rattle off a few figures for us? or are you........ guessing? right I figured as much.
Look if you need component A and component B to play the game, and people keep stealing component A, it's not that hard to see what the game manufacturer is going to do. That's right raise the price of component B.

Also, is it even illegal making use of products or reproductions which have not been physically stolen? As far as I am aware, only the reproduction or reciprocation of copyrighted material is illegal (i.e. sharing is illegal, but using material without sharing it to other;ls, by whichever means you acquired it, is not illegal as long as the actual product does not belong to someone else - something immaterial property does not do.).

copyright, copy-right, right to copy. GW has the RIGHT to COPY their material. YOU do not, and neither does scribe. You can let your friend look at your book. but you cant make a photocopy and give it to him. not without breaking the law.

In other words, using scribd isn't illegal, merely morally questionable.

yeah that's the part that's really foul. if there's no law preventing it, it's merely a matter of morality. mere morality. no big deal. that's why we need a law regulating everything these days - because your run of the mill citizen (you) doesnt ask whether something is right or wrong, but whether its legal or illegal. fact is though that it's both illegal and immoral. you are taking someone else's work without compensating them. you're stealing. but since there's no enforcement (yet) you don't have a problem with it. It just goes to show, really, that without punishment there is no morality. Your run of the mill citizen (you) will do whatever he can get away with minus the consequences.

w/e. it's not a big deal. the law will catch up to internet pirates the same way it did to printing press pirates 500 years ago. it won't be as difficult to regulate as alot of internet fanboys think it will be. the state just hasnt gotten serious yet.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:what gets me about piracy is that the same people who do it complain about the price point of citadel miniatures. They're just making up in miniatures what you all steal in codices. You're not even saving any money.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:since you have gw's balance sheet in front of you can you rattle off a few figures for us? or are you........ guessing? right I figured as much.

Hey this is great, I can get you to argue against yourself!

Mahtamori wrote:
You're grossly overestimating both the impact of "piracy" and the impact on Game's Workshop's business. In fact, I'd hazard that second-hand sales which you see on this very forum and on e-Bay and so on has vastly more impact on their profits and it would not surprise me one bit if codex material is the least exposed to lost profit from external supplier sources.

argument about figures

AbaddonFidelis wrote:what gets me about piracy is that the same people who do it complain about the price point of citadel miniatures. They're just making up in miniatures what you all steal in codices. You're not even saving any money.

argument about business strategy.



If you can't see the difference there's no point in me trying to explain it.

Errrrrr....I read the first and the last page of this thread so I guess somewhere down the line the topic was so randomly offed that now we're talking about Nigerian witches but whatever...

Back to the original point on hand: I have done, and in the future intend to, download codices from the internet. Why do I do it? Simple enough really, there are upwards of 10 codices on the shelves at the moment, each one retailing over £15 each. Am I really going to spend over £100 on books, 9 of which I only want so I can reference an obscure unit or check a statline or points cost? The answer is no. I'd be mad to. I don't have that kind of expendable income lying around, or even the space to store all those books.

Another factor that turns me off is the overall quality of the books in question. £15 is a LOT for a book, and when I'm paying that much I expect a decent quality product. Now, truthfully this has got much, much better in recent years but I stiill see plenty of codices in my FLGS with pages becoming seperated and falling out all over the place. You could argue a certain amount of responsibility has to fall on the purchaser to look after their product but when 50-60% of people pick up their book and have half of it fall out in their laps I'm even less inclined to shell out money for the same product.

So yeah, that's my reasoning. Quantity, price, convenience and (apparant lack of) quality all combine together to make me very, very dubious to pay GW for their books. As long as people keep sharing online, I'll remain grateful for free information.

L. Wrex

Everyone assumes that copyright holders have a base right to "own" their ideas.

This is wrong (as in: actually incorrect)

The basic right is that information is free for all to use: public domain.

In order to encourage, a *limited* right to control copying, as opposed to an inherent right, was artificially created. At 14 years (or thereabouts)

Now? Copyright is 50 years + life of author (Berne convention countries) or *70* years + life (US, thanks to Mickey Mouse) - this i s a gross extension of copyright and is, in my mind, MORALLY wrong.

Thus proving Steelmages interpretation of "wrong" to be the naive and artificial wrong = illegal = wrong. Steelmages position is also so....poorly constructed it logically results in a stagnant society unable to enact / repeal any laws - as the laws are always "right".

Luckily that position is a poor one; the reality based position (being illegal does not make something automatically wrong, morally) is much stronger.

if you think its morally wrong you should work to change the law.... or support people who do. we have a process for that in this country..... until then.... if you break the law.... you're committing a crime. It's definitely wrong to take something from another person that they have worked to create without compensating them for it. that's theft.

Let's deepen this debate slightly. Let's say you borrow a music CD off of a friend and copy it to your PC. Is that stealing? Or is that just sharing? Now let's say your friend moves to another country, but he still sends you the odd CD that you copy, put on your PC and send back to him. Is that stealing now? Now let's say that instead of sending you the physical copy (due to postage prices, length of time involved, international courier complications) he puts it online so you can access it anywhere that has an internet connection. How about now? Is that stealing? Or are we still sharing a product between friends through a different method than the traditional one?

Now replace the CD with a codex. Whats the difference?

And it anyone here is going to turn around and tell me they have *never* borrowed and burned/copied a music CD I'm going to call shennanigans.

L. Wrex

da001 wrote:

Lexx wrote:

micahaphone wrote:You are viewing something that is not yours, that you normally have to pay for. This is unfair to companies that depend upon their customers buying and paying for their materials. While it can be argued that GW makes more money off of models than codexes (most likely), they still make money off of them, so it is better to ask then to look.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just thought I'd say thank you for the good discussion.

But with that reasoning just looking at a friends codex is just as bad. The method of obtaining the information is different but you still get the same result.

This.
Sharing in Internet works exactly as sharing in the real world. Only numbers change.

Not to mention that micahaphone1's moral compass precludes borrowing from the library or a friend or anything else that you didn't pay for. My local library even offers e-books for check-out, quick sue the entire library system!

AbaddonFidelis wrote: if you break the law.... you're committing a crime.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:Let's deepen this debate slightly. Let's say you borrow a music CD off of a friend and copy it to your PC. Is that stealing? Or is that just sharing?

according to the law [RAW, if you will] its stealing and illegal. however the copying mechanism is so clumsy and inefficient that it was never worth the distributor's time and energy to prosecute. 1 guy just cant make enough CDs to jeapordize his bottom line. So its illegal yeah but not exactly a big deal. Now that 1 guy can take the entire distribution mechanism away from the copyright owner, its different......

Now let's say your friend moves to another country, but he still sends you the odd CD that you copy, put on your PC and send back to him. Is that stealing now? Now let's say that instead of sending you the physical copy (due to postage prices, length of time involved, international courier complications) he puts it online so you can access it anywhere that has an internet connection. How about now? Is that stealing? Or are we still sharing a product between friends through a different method than the traditional one?

Now replace the CD with a codex. Whats the difference?

And it anyone here is going to turn around and tell me they have *never* borrowed and burned/copied a music CD I'm going to call shennanigans.

L. Wrex

if the internet were just facilitating an exchange between a handful of people it wouldnt be different at all...... but what scribd is doind is burning a CD for a couple hundred thousand people at once and mailing it to them free of charge.... to extend the analogy. Creative people have always had to struggle for compensation for their work, because historically it's been pretty simple to pirate. CDs and books are easy to pirate too - its not technological challenges, but relatively strong enforcement mechanisms that kept it from happening on a large scale before the internet. Those enforcmeent mechanisms just havent caught up with the technology yet, but they will..... the internet is relatively unregulated for the moment, but as more and more of the state's vital interests become tied into the internet, the more interested the state will become in regulating it.... and the more public support there will be for doing so. There's alot of ideological talk about the glorious new age of free information. I really believe it's a bunch of nonsense. Information has always been free in the sense that they mean it. The internet didnt change that much. It just made the distribution mechanism more widespread. Well there's nothing stopping the state from passing a law that says developers of software have to put DRM into every program they write, and further write them in such a way that they cannot read non-DRM-compliant fiiles. You cant regulate all computers but really you don't have to. If you just regulate corporate computers you have effective control of the internet's hub; by controlling those computers you can make non-DRM-compliant computers next to useless by limiting their access to the internet. Really it's just a matter of regulation. They can should and will do it.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:if you think its morally wrong you should work to change the law.... or support people who do. we have a process for that in this country

Slow clap. I know this. I do work to change the law - the trouble is that it's easy to ignore people who dont have as much bribe money^H^^H^H^H campaign donations as another. I also support others who work to change the law

AbaddonFidelis wrote:..... until then.... if you break the law.... you're committing a crime.

Another slow clap. Yes, I am aware that commiting an illegal act does, in fact, mean you're commiting an illegal act. Well done. The legality is not in question - jus the morality and the fallacy that declares illegal = morally wrong.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:It's definitely wrong to take something from another person that they have worked to create without compensating them for it. that's theft.

Bzzt. Wrong on 4 accounts.

1. It is not "definitely wrong" - I have already shown this. YOu are equating legality to "correctness", when I am talking morals. It can be perfectly morally correct to break the law.
2. I (generic "I") have not taken anything. A copy is not "taking" something, as the person still *has* the something. Failure of understanding of basic English terms there.
3. After a reasonable term it is perfectly fine, as all works belong to the Public Domain *by default*. The artifical creation of "copyright" has gone far, far FAR beyond what is "reasonable" however.
4. No, assuming it falls under copyright terms it is Copyright Infringement. Technically, Legally and Lnguistically Copyright Infringement /- Theft. You have been entirely brainwashed if you believe otherwise.

This thread is quickly going off-topic as it goes along.

Well will you look at that, we're there now.

Edit - gah, double post....

All you are paying for when you buy a codex is the actual printed copy. therefore, if you don't want the printed copy, just torrent it....

AbaddonFidelis wrote:...It's just a matter of regulation. I think they can and should do it.

Aiming for Party membership I see.