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That used to be the distinction.

Sorcery was bargaining for powers with some Warp Entity whereas psykers used the 'raw' warp to fuel their powers.

Psykers could be tricked, duped, fooled, etc. into trouble, but IF you were disciplined and kept your wits about you, you should be OK...

So yeah, having Grey Knights employ Sorcery?

No.

That sounds like a correct distinction to me actually.


I guess the Grey Knights/Sorcery thing was just a typo. Who would've thought GW were capable of such a thing?

RustyKnight wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:
No.

I don't see why I should have to use a character I don't want to play the army I could play yesterday without him. If it is 'Inquisitors unlock XYZ' then fine, but 'Inquisitor Named McSpecialCharacter unlocks XYZ', then the book can go to hell.

Why would you be so opposed to counts-as'ing the special character for one of your many inquisitors? There's a pretty damn good chance that the SC inquisitor would have a power weapon or a daemon hammer, and I'm sure at least one of your inq's has that. What's the harm in using the named SC's rules? Nothing changes except you get a more updated army.

A stupidly unfair and bias points cost?

H.B.M.C. wrote:
As I said, would you say the same thing to a Blood Angel player if Blood Angel players had been told that they wouldn't be getting a Codex and they had to 'counts as' the Special Characters in the Marine Codex to make their army? No you wouldn't. Because that would be stupid. So don't tell those of us with Ordo Malleus armies that we can keep playing them if we play something different.

They're moving all of one unit to a different force org slot (maybe). This is no way similar to removing an entire army. Does the new book look to have an even greater GK focus? Yes, but the non-GK offerings in the current codex are miniscule already. I listed them all in my last post (which you seemed to ignore), and the daemonhost is the only thing that might not make the transition.

AlexHolker wrote: So if you were already planning on spending 150+ points on a Coteaz lookalike, spending 150+ points on a Coteaz lookalike isn't a problem? What if you aren't planning on spending that much on a Coteaz-lookalike?

I've hit the cost point below.

Because the codex has more than one set of unique Daemonhunter stuff. A Psycannon or Annoited Weapon is just as valid a choice as a Daemonhammer.

I'd be surprised if Psycannons stay as an option for Inquisitors. Imperial doctrine insists that leaders of any kind must carry swords. The Anointed weapon is a power weapon with an absurdly narrow band of targets for it's special rules (a band of targets that mostly hit before an Inquisitor and instant kill him anyways). Ultimately, the difference between an all IST army and an IG one will come down to a couple of names and the fact that one of thos two will have more and better equipment.

alphaomega wrote:A stupidly unfair and bias points cost?

You're complaining that the point cost on a SC that may or may not exist may or may not be too high? For all we know generic inquisitors will unlock IST's as troops. Hell, IST's might end up troops normally. Regardless, at 150+ points, this SC would be doing a lot more than just allowing IST's as troops. Look at the DE codex and all the rules their IC's bring. Even if the guy costs more, the massive decrease in costs all the transports will be getting should cover the difference in cost between SC inquisitor and generic.

alphaomega wrote:Grey Knight Hero
Grey Knight Terminators
Grey Knight in Power Armour
Grey Knight Land Raiders
Grey Knight Dreanought.

This list is actually smaller in the Deamon Hunters codex than the Ordos Malleus units...

You're right. I shouldn't have used "even greater." Course, my point still stands. Reshuffling how one gets IST's won't be destroying armies.

RustyKnight, You do make a valid point. My Original post was that I hope it doesn't invalidate the 60 IST and Inquistors that I already do own, as I do tend to play DH more than WH with my models.

Fingers crossed all will still be okay.

My point about bias points cost was that, most special characters do seem a bit points heavy (Current Cortez springs to mind) so if the points are balanced then it will not be so much an issue, just more Inquisitors for my collection I guess.

I am quite happy to be wrong about all this, but past experience with GW has taught me that when an entire Codex gets a massive paradigm shift in its focus, those that aren't part of that focus get left behind.

If a non-GK Ordo Malleus army is possible once this Codex is out (and without the need for Special Characters) then that's fine, but I don't expect that with a Codex called "Grey Knights".

Nice, grey knights. It'll be interesting to see what the codex will mean for these guys.

H.B.M.C. wrote:(and without the need for Special Characters)

A more cynical man than I might attribute an ulterior motive for avoiding all of my explanations of why needing a special character is no biggy.

Wow, Daemonhunters makes me want to comeback to the game, but if you lot(a few of you) are the local meta, then no thank you. What a bunch of whiners, boo hoo i may or may not be able to play my army exactly as i was and now i want to cry about it.


Play Lost and Damned and get over it

fire4effekt wrote:Wow, Daemonhunters makes me want to comeback to the game, but if you lot(a few of you) are the local meta, then no thank you. What a bunch of whiners, boo hoo i may or may not be able to play my army exactly as i was and now i want to cry about it.


Play Lost and Damned and get over it

This doesn't earn you any points with them, or anyone else, as you're basically answering complaining with more complaining. And they're a bit more entitled to it than you

It does bode badly for some who thought this release was Codex: Inquisition/Ordo Malleus.

Destrado wrote:It does bode badly for some who thought this release was Codex: Inquisition/Ordo Malleus.

I'd have thought that of the people complaining here would at least have steeled themselves for the possibility, what with every single relevant rumor saying that the Inquisition would be downplayed in favor of Grey Knights.

Destrado wrote:
It does bode badly for some who thought this release was Codex: Inquisition/Ordo Malleus.

In all fairness...it has been pretty well known that it would be Codex:Grey Knights for a while now. That should make it pretty obvious who was going to be focused on. Sure, it sucks for Inq/OM players, but at least theyve had some warning and didnt find out when the book was released.

It also shouldnt be a surprise. Think about it, GW had a choice...focus the codex on a group that very few people play and would likely draw in few new players...OR...focus on their bread and butter, Space Marines. Add in the fact that the current metal GK are widely praised as some of GWs best work and new versions would likely get a huge amount of attention...it was almost a given GK would win out over Inq.

Another point to note...GW invalidates old armies on purpose. Making a book that allows you to use all the minis you already own doesnt make them nearly as much money as releasing a book that causes you to have to buy a bunch more.

Its been their MO for a good long time. If you really dont like it, stop playing their games and buying their products. Contrary to what they would have you believe there are other games out there, and some are pretty good.

I think it comes down to people complaining just so they can be heard. Some people might be a little miffed or embarassed that they were wrong about the title or the units in it or heck that it would or would not come out. Most important thing right now, is that the book is coming out in April (God help GW if its an April Fools joke). With the coming of the new book there will be several sides taken:

New Guys: Band wagoners, new players, etc. Who love it cause its new, shiny and ultra awesome.

Old Guys: Daemonhunter codex hardliners. Hate it cause its been tweaked, updated, etc.

Complainers: Hate it cause it makes their armies less likely to dominate games, not realizing that its balanced and the game ultimatley comes down to one important thing...random....thats RANDOM...dice roll.

GW Enthusiats: Love the game, love the models, etc. They dont care which side is right or wrong, just want to enjoy the game, paint and convert some minis.

Im sure there are other groups but thats it for now. Im hoping the book will not be stagnant and a lot of the "confirmed" rumors end up being true. I love the idea of versatility that the army is shaping up to be. Though I have waaaay to many armies to start yet another, I will probably buy some of the new shiny stuff for the hobby aspect.

Father Gabe wrote:I think it comes down to people complaining just so they can be heard. Some people might be a little miffed or embarassed that they were wrong about the title or the units in it or heck that it would or would not come out. Most important thing right now, is that the book is coming out in April (God help GW if its an April Fools joke). With the coming of the new book there will be several sides taken:

New Guys: Band wagoners, new players, etc. Who love it cause its new, shiny and ultra awesome.

Old Guys: Daemonhunter codex hardliners. Hate it cause its been tweaked, updated, etc.

Complainers: Hate it cause it makes their armies less likely to dominate games, not realizing that its balanced and the game ultimatley comes down to one important thing...random....thats RANDOM...dice roll.

GW Enthusiats: Love the game, love the models, etc. They dont care which side is right or wrong, just want to enjoy the game, paint and convert some minis.

Im sure there are other groups but thats it for now. Im hoping the book will not be stagnant and a lot of the "confirmed" rumors end up being true. I love the idea of versatility that the army is shaping up to be. Though I have waaaay to many armies to start yet another, I will probably buy some of the new shiny stuff for the hobby aspect.

Truth right there. I know im in it for the painting and converting.

RustyKnight wrote:A more cynical man than I might attribute an ulterior motive for avoiding all of my explanations of why needing a special character is no biggy.

And a man such as myself doesn't care if you think I have an ulterior motive or not.

I don't mind characters unlocking elements of the army (eg. Marine Captain + Bike = Bikes as Troops). I do mind Special Characters, because Special Characters come with their own fluff and their own background stories and their own reasons for existing. I'm not a tournament player. I make army list choices that are logical and certainly do take things because they are effective during the game, but I always start with the fluff. Were I to play a Vulkan Marine army I would do so first because I want to play an army with Vulkan at its head, not because I want the abilities he confers. If my fluff said that my Sallie army* was led by a Librarian I wouldn't take Vulkan (rather than saying that Vulkan is the Libby) and just suffer without the Salamander special rules and I'd much rather there were Salamander special rules that weren't tied to a Special Character.

Imagine if the situation were reversed and we were about to get a Codex: Inquisition, and Grey Knights were in it but could only be taken as Troops if Captain Stern was taken. I wouldn't want all my GK forces** to be led by Captain Stern. That would be dull. And nonsensical. And just 'Counts As'-ing him as someone else doesn't help matters. And I'd feel very sorry for the GK players that were losing their army. I wouldn't browbeat them and explain why they still can field their army and to just suck it up and use the Special Character.




*I don't have a Salamander army, I'm just using them as an example.
**I don't have a GK army either. Again, it's just an example.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Alpharius wrote:Sorcery was bargaining for powers with some Warp Entity whereas psykers used the 'raw' warp to fuel their powers.

To further clarify (as taken from the descriptions given in Dark Heresy and its supplements), Sorcery in 40K isn't 'magic' in the Fantasy sense of the word, but the use of psychic and other Warp-based powers via non-natural means.

For example:

- Someone who has a natural ability to draw power from the Warp is a psyker.
- Someone who needs some alien/Chaos artefact or a bargain with a Daemon to draw power from the Warp is a Sorcerer (ie. their ability is not innate, and without the object/pact they would not have this ability).

GKs are all natural psykers. They should have no need for sorcery whatsoever.

Maybe it's just...indistinguishable from magic.

I wouldn't worry too much about the use of the word 'sorcery' in the article. If they can bring the Dark Eldar back with some minor fluff changes while keeping the whole ideal the same, I can't see them doing things differently with Grey Knights.

I guess my point is that there's no such thing as 'magic' (in the classical sense) within 40K. Everything, even Acts of Faith, has a warp-based or warp-originated explanation.

How that relates to the GK's is largely unimportant. They're psykers, but it's not unusual to hear people substitute 'psychic power' with 'spell' when talking about 40K psykers.

H.B.M.C. wrote: I don't mind characters unlocking elements of the army (eg. Marine Captain + Bike = Bikes as Troops).

But what if you want to only run a bike libby? Isn't this just as bad as giving the unlock to a SC? In both cases people are being forced to take certain units.

H.B.M.C. wrote: I do mind Special Characters, because Special Characters come with their own fluff and their own background stories and their own reasons for existing.

That reason being the provision of templates to access special rules. The idea of SC's as not so much the character but as templates was introduced in C:SM. That's how GW (and many) are looking at Vulkan; he's not just Vulkan but also a template to make an artifact wielding Salamander commander.

H.B.M.C. wrote:
If my fluff said that my Sallie army* was led by a Librarian I wouldn't take Vulkan (rather than saying that Vulkan is the Libby) and just suffer without the Salamander special rules and I'd much rather there were Salamander special rules that weren't tied to a Special Character.

What if you wanted a Salamander biker army with a librarian at its head? Would you complain that forcing you to take a captain was too strict?

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Imagine if the situation were reversed and we were about to get a Codex: Inquisition, and Grey Knights were in it but could only be taken as Troops if Captain Stern was taken. I wouldn't want all my GK forces** to be led by Captain Stern. That would be dull. And nonsensical. And just 'Counts As'-ing him as someone else doesn't help matters. And I'd feel very sorry for the GK players that were losing their army. I wouldn't browbeat them and explain why they still can field their army and to just suck it up and use the Special Character.

Stern and a GKGM/GKBC will have almost identical loadout. That's pretty much a perfect counts-as situation. Noone would be losing an army.

Vhalyar wrote:
I'd have thought that of the people complaining here would at least have steeled themselves for the possibility, what with every single relevant rumor saying that the Inquisition would be downplayed in favor of Grey Knights.

Mad4Minis wrote:
In all fairness...it has been pretty well known that it would be Codex:Grey Knights for a while now. That should make it pretty obvious who was going to be focused on. Sure, it sucks for Inq/OM players, but at least theyve had some warning and didnt find out when the book was released.

Was this announced before or after they bought their armies?

I don't have a GK or Inquisitor army, or SOB, but I think it's a bit odd introducing Grey Knights on their own (they are rarely, if ever, commited to a battlefield the same way SM armies are; they were generally associated with Imperial Guard armies). I think that this is what pissed some people. If not, then I apologize.

Mad4Minis wrote:Another point to note...GW invalidates old armies on purpose. Making a book that allows you to use all the minis you already own doesnt make them nearly as much money as releasing a book that causes you to have to buy a bunch more.

Its been their MO for a good long time. If you really dont like it, stop playing their games and buying their products. Contrary to what they would have you believe there are other games out there, and some are pretty good.

I'm sorry, while to a certain extent I agree with you, I feel for the player that collected an army and being unable to field it without "extreme makeover". They have supported the hobby as much as the next guy, built it around a theme - a Dark Angels player who had a 10th company scout army (granted, extreme, probably didn't happen ), players who bought Leman Russ Exterminators for their Space Wolf armies (3rd Edition), or heck, fielded Sternguard thanks to Kantor or Loganwing thanks to 6th edition codexes, should these players have their armies invalidated?

Losing costumers because of bad practice (IMHO) means they sell less, which in turn will mean they will raise prices to compensate. So, in a way, this affects us all, even if our armies aren't themed.

Actually Grey Knights operate on their own without support most of the time.

if they are being used then it means the threat is so great that other forces can't be used for fear of corruption(in the case of an active infestation), no other forces are avaliable, prehaps the target is a artifact in the posession of a Xeno or IG force that won't be handing it over and ISTs simply wouldn't be able to accomplish the task.


ISTs are actually a 2nd string force, not the primary one. Their job usually involves guarding Inquisitors and Inquisitional property, something that would waste a GK's skill. rarely will they be used to activly go after something when there is ample time to gather the needed supplies.

an Inquisitor using inducted IG is truly desperate.

Inducted Space Marines are usually used just like GKs would be.

Alpharius wrote:That used to be the distinction.

Sorcery was bargaining for powers with some Warp Entity whereas psykers used the 'raw' warp to fuel their powers.

Psykers could be tricked, duped, fooled, etc. into trouble, but IF you were disciplined and kept your wits about you, you should be OK...

So yeah, having Grey Knights employ Sorcery?

No.

I agree with the distinction, psykers use the raw warp, sorcerers use spells and a warp entity as an intermediary so they can do more subtle things.

BUT it could be that they are using sorcery with the Emperor as their warp patron.

Where's my no-prize?

Grey Templar wrote:an Inquisitor using inducted IG is truly desperate.
Inducted Space Marines are usually used just like GKs would be.

Actually... Dark Heresy's Ascension book contradicts you on that little bit. Inquisitors are more likely to take Guard troops as they are more numerous, can directly requisition them without anyone having any option and can easily be purged afterwards if the inquisitor deems the situation necessary.

For Space Marines they have to go and try and make some form of arrangement with the chapter. If the Chapter Master refuses the Inquisitor has no power to change his mind. "Please sir, Mr Chapter Master, Can I please borrow some of your highly prized and expert Brother Marines? No? Darnit!" An arrangement, especially a long term partnership, between an Inquisitor and a Space Marine Chapter is a highly prized and rare thing.

Grey Knights would only be brought on board for daemonic incursions, so their usage on the battlefield is rarely more than a few squads at a time

Oh and all the Inquisition players have my sympathy if their fears do come true. I've been through losing my army due to codex updates twice now (GS Cult, LatD). Technically 3 if you could the original Tyranid list in White Dwarf with the Zoats and mind slaves as a valid list. Damn. That makes 3 of the 6 40K armies I've ever had being demolished so much they had to be abandoned. :(

Grey Templar wrote:an Inquisitor using inducted IG is truly desperate.

Hardly. That's what they use most of the time, assuming they're even requisitioning an army at all.

If the Codex: Grey Knights places more focus on Grey Knights, and Codex: Sisters of Battle does the same...will there be a Codex: Inquisition for more Inq focused armies? or will they just increase the size of both those codexes and split the Inq army options between them to get more sales?

For Space Marines they have to go and try and make some form of arrangement with the chapter. If the Chapter Master refuses the Inquisitor has no power to change his mind. "Please sir, Mr Chapter Master, Can I please borrow some of your highly prized and expert Brother Marines? No? Darnit!" An arrangement, especially a long term partnership, between an Inquisitor and a Space Marine Chapter is a highly prized and rare thing.

This sort of reminds me of that Inquisitor movie where an Inquisitor works with Dark Angels.

Mr Hyena wrote:If the Codex: Grey Knights places more focus on Grey Knights, and Codex: Sisters of Battle does the same...will there be a Codex: Inquisition for more Inq focused armies? or will they just increase the size of both those codexes and split the Inq army options between them to get more sales?

Ha. As if. The Inquisition will always be 'second fiddle' to everything else. Even Jervis thinks that they got 'carried away' when they did the Daemonhunter/Witch Hunter Codices.

Look on the bright side though. You could be someone who owns an AdMech army or a Deathwatch Army - two things that don't even have rules. Wait...

It's really funny though, when you consider just how important the Inquisition is to the entire 40k universe, yet GW hates it so much.

Destrado wrote:
I don't have a GK or Inquisitor army, or SOB, but I think it's a bit odd introducing Grey Knights on their own (they are rarely, if ever, commited to a battlefield the same way SM armies are; they were generally associated with Imperial Guard armies). I think that this is what pissed some people. If not, then I apologize.

Umad? MOST of the time GK can deploy nothing BUT GK because the battlefield is far to daemonic for imperial guardsmen. Unless I am interpretting you wrong and you mean to say space marines are the ones who deploy IG?

Jaon wrote:

Destrado wrote:
I don't have a GK or Inquisitor army, or SOB, but I think it's a bit odd introducing Grey Knights on their own (they are rarely, if ever, commited to a battlefield the same way SM armies are; they were generally associated with Imperial Guard armies). I think that this is what pissed some people. If not, then I apologize.

Umad? MOST of the time GK can deploy nothing BUT GK because the battlefield is far to daemonic for imperial guardsmen. Unless I am interpretting you wrong and you mean to say space marines are the ones who deploy IG?

Exactly. Best to think of them like US Navy SEALs. They do missions that no one else can. With GK its the daemon angle. When its just to hot for anyone else, they go in. Although somewhat related GK and the Inq would have different missions. Inq would be more the seekers, GK more the destroyers. Sure there is overlap, but each is a bit specialized to a certain function.

GW have said in literature that an Inquisitor's authority is second only to the God-Emperor and that an Inquisitor has the authority to order a Space Marine Chapter to act.

Of course it mentions in the same place that no sane Inquisitor would ever order the Astartes to do anything, even though they technically could do.

Still, that leaves half the Ordo Malleus...

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