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Lol, every time a leak happens some hopeless optimists claim the errors will be fixed in the final print, and they never are.

Enjoy your Fast Razorbacks.

I will, thank you very much.

So, I know I'm thinking pretty far into the future, what do you reckon will be in subsequent waves? I mean, henchmen are so diverse I doubt they'll get models. Plastic Grand master would be nice.

Ketara wrote:Give them some credit.

As soon as they give me a reason to.

I find it hilarious that people take a prototype copy with handwriting from the design team scrawled all over it with amendments, and presume that the stuff in print is the 100% guaranteed final print version. I really do.

Ketara wrote:I find it hilarious that people take a prototype copy with handwriting from the design team scrawled all over it with amendments, and presume that the stuff in print is the 100% guaranteed final print version. I really do.

DOOOOMMMMM!!! DOOOOOOMMMM!!!!!

Ketara wrote:I find it hilarious that people take a prototype copy with handwriting from the design team scrawled all over it with amendments, and presume that the stuff in print is the 100% guaranteed final print version. I really do.

Me too!

Destrado wrote:
In any case, why go to such trouble and do a full page layout if it isn't the final product? It could be that they only have to change the point costs later, but I seriously doubt it. I'd be willing to bet that this is either someone having fun with us (if so, hats off, but very unlikely) or it is indeed the final product, missing a few entries and going for a last revision to finally go to the big printers.

Bottom line, I doubt outdated material would be in such a polished layout.

GW probably has the codex layout tested along with the rules. Codex layout constantly gets better, and I bet one way they improve that is to playtest different codex layouts. So along with rules advice designers can give layout recommendations. That's one reason for an old formatted version.

I think that you'd be nuts to believe that this is anything but a late edition test copy, meaning that while there are undoubtedly changes between this version and what we buy off the shelves, they're going to be 'tweaks' and not 'sweeping alterations'.

This reads like a second-second draft, not a first draft or rough outline.

I'd say it's very safe to assume that Coteaz lets a billion henches show up, and that there will be a new bout of insanity in cheap special weapons and wargear hitting the metagame pretty soon, that everybody is going to have to figure out how to deal with.

sourclams wrote:I think that you'd be nuts to believe that this is anything but a late edition test copy, meaning that while there are undoubtedly changes between this version and what we buy off the shelves, they're going to be 'tweaks' and not 'sweeping alterations'.

This reads like a second-second draft, not a first draft or rough outline.

I'd say it's very safe to assume that Coteaz lets a billion henches show up, and that there will be a new bout of insanity in cheap special weapons and wargear hitting the metagame pretty soon, that everybody is going to have to figure out how to deal with.

I would agree. However, I would assume the whole 'lets you take a billion henches' will be cleared up and worded so that they count as troops choices on the force org chart. That's a minor enough amendment to rectify a lot of confusion.

A list of holes I have yet to answer or know if there are answers to in the beta codex.

Can a unit be ATSKNF and Stubborn?...ATSKNF and Fearless...Stubborn and Fearless...ATSKNF Stubborn and Fearless
(Some of these things don't make sense together...)

How do you randomly determine which model takes a Perils if the Knight of the Flame or Justicar is dead?
(Doesn't come out to 2, 3, or 6 models exactly everytime...)

Do you get multiple d3 Grand Strategies from multiple Grand Masters?

Can you put multiple Grand Strategies on one unit?

If a Champion or Crowe uses one psychic power during their respective turn...can heroic sacrifice still be initiated?

Is Crowe supposed to not be an Independent Character?
(He doesn't seem survivable enough to be one of GW's Mephistons...)

Does Cleansing Flame work every ensuing player turn in a continued assault?

Does Hammerhand raise the strength of a unit for the purposes of resisting the zone of banishment?

Is the Death Cult Assassin's extra attack for two power weapons included in it's profile?
(As of right now it doesn't say as such)


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Ketara wrote:I would agree. However, I would assume the whole 'lets you take a billion henches' will be cleared up and worded so that they count as troops choices on the force org chart. That's a minor enough amendment to rectify a lot of confusion.

The beta codex says "Inquisitorial Henchmen Warbands are troops choices...and not limited by the number of inquisitors in your army."

sourclams wrote:I think that you'd be nuts to believe that this is anything but a late edition test copy, meaning that while there are undoubtedly changes between this version and what we buy off the shelves, they're going to be 'tweaks' and not 'sweeping alterations'.

This reads like a second-second draft, not a first draft or rough outline.

I'd say it's very safe to assume that Coteaz lets a billion henches show up, and that there will be a new bout of insanity in cheap special weapons and wargear hitting the metagame pretty soon, that everybody is going to have to figure out how to deal with.

This is exactly what I think as well. It looks like the near-final product, and any changes will likely only be minor.

About the henchman army crazyness though, even if it makes it into the codex and GW doesn't release a FAQ a little later clearing up the issue (as in disallows the unlimited nature of it) as they have been doing lately with some of the other controverse, then we still have a couple of options:

- People who do play tournaments will see that a lot, if not most, tournament operators will simply install a limit to the henchmen themselves.

- People who don't play tournaments will never ever have to play such list if they don't want to, as they can basically tell their opponent to feth off.

I've been waiting for the GK release for quite a while now, and I'm 100% sure I'll never play with or against such a list. Right now this is, as usual, being made a far bigger issue than it will be in reality.

carabine wrote:Fair assessment, there are several parts which come into question with this polished layout there are still massive errors in page numbering, rule descriptions, etc. This no matter what is not the final product with several sections saying "page (XX)" I doubt the finality of this book. Most of the "polished" look of this codex could simply be a template that one of the writers has on hand to simply make setup easier to look at, I know that someone with a small bit of skill could set up a photoshop template so that they could create a blank unit box and simply put in whatever wargear/points cost/ ruleset that they wanted both for the fluff page and for the unit entries.

Having done something similar (a "polished" semester report), stuff like this doesn't get the xx field until you get the exact number of pages. That's a minor change, and the last one. It's a way of making sure you don't forget to double check the pages.

I doubt they'd go to the trouble of having all the entries put in a "final codex" layout without it being more or less the actual rules. What would be the point? Stuff like this isn't done just for fun, it'd have to be pretty close to the final piece - meaning that much wouldn't change. This is my opinion of it, I am by no means right.

carabine wrote:Personally I do believe that in some do part it IS a dev codex, I think it was a mockup and printed out to get passed around the office and someone got ahold of a printed copy and got away with it before this round of it was trashed. Just because we got this copy this late doesn't mean it's this new, the copy could be much older as in fall - winter 2010.

If it was a mockup, why would they have the layout like this? It takes some time to make something like this, only to greatly alter it later. It'd be somewhat counterproductive.

carabine wrote:I think we can trust the unit entries (yes even the jokero), wargear (though not their effects or stats), and fluff pages (for the most part, I'll bet 20 bucks says atleast one of those is getting rewritten).

I'm not sure. I don't think any one unit will be re-written, unfortunately. I dislike this codex on the level of fluff and power levels.

carabine wrote:But as you said it comes down to a bottom line. I can make a setup like that with my sister's (art student) help, that can allow me to reproduce a codex again and again and edit it without losing any of the polish.

The thing is, I could do it. It's not that hard, but it takes patience. And a couple of hours. And this is without writing all the text.


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Ketara wrote:I find it hilarious that people take a prototype copy with handwriting from the design team scrawled all over it with amendments, and presume that the stuff in print is the 100% guaranteed final print version. I really do.

I'm sorry, but I did go to the point of explaining my reasoning for thinking that way, instead of just dismissing it because I don't like the codex. Not 100%, but close.

I see the extreme power builds of any army list from the leaked pdf will be THE top tier army using henchmen.

15pt models with ws4, power weapons and 3++?

14pt models with plasma or melta guns?

15pt models with ws5, ,str5, fnp and a4?

Libby's will be a must take. The psychic powers are borderline over the top.

if GK gets some crazy HQ rule like puppies, it will simply break the competitive 40k meta.

Destrado wrote:If it was a mockup, why would they have the layout like this? It takes some time to make something like this, only to greatly alter it later. It'd be somewhat counterproductive.

Read my previous post.

1. GK won't get 4 HQs or such nonsense. It's a SW thing.

2. Everyone needs to calm the hell down about henchmen. The only thing overpowered about henchmen is the transports they can ride. If GW needs to fix anything, it's the ability to take infinite razorbacks, not infinite squads of humans with fancy wargear.

For once, I agree with you, ph34r. The problem isn't the henchmen, they're only T3 bar 1. The problem is the ability to give a single 3-man unit a razorback or chimera.

ductvader wrote:

Ketara wrote:I would agree. However, I would assume the whole 'lets you take a billion henches' will be cleared up and worded so that they count as troops choices on the force org chart. That's a minor enough amendment to rectify a lot of confusion.

The beta codex says "Inquisitorial Henchmen Warbands are troops choices...and not limited by the number of inquisitors in your army."

Thus even their beta does not allow for infinite Henchmen.

It also says "[henchmen] do not use up a force organization slot". Durrr.

pixelpusher wrote:

Destrado wrote:If it was a mockup, why would they have the layout like this? It takes some time to make something like this, only to greatly alter it later. It'd be somewhat counterproductive.

Read my previous post.

I read your previous post, twice now. Yeah, it would take an afternoon. Again, what the hell would they do it for ? It wouldn't be done unless they have almost everything there 'cept for a few lines here and there.

"I know, Bob from the graphic department isn't doing anything today."

We'll know two months from now.

ph34r wrote:It also says "[henchmen] do not use up a force organization slot". Durrr.

Henchmen do not take up a force org slot...then if you take coteaz...they count as troop choices...counting as a troop choice...means they are back in the force org...originally they were an elite that did not count as an elite choice...

There is no issue here...you can't take them as non FoC elites because Coteaz makes them troop choices...you can have up to 72 henchmenand up to 9 razorbacks given (3 elite razors and 6 troops)

Preparedness and process. It's not uncommon to have something more or less done layoutwise way before the deadline. Makes it way easier to request artwork or photos to fill empty space or tell the writer that they have to shorten text because it won't fit or looks weird due to excessive hyphenation.

Now I said that =][= (see what I did there?) would do it in an afternoon. I bet that if you're on the "art department" and are into the process you'd do it way faster. But then again, you always need breaks for a coffee and a cigarette!

ductvader wrote:

ph34r wrote:It also says "[henchmen] do not use up a force organization slot". Durrr.

Henchmen do not take up a force org slot...then if you take coteaz...they count as troop choices...counting as a troop choice...means they are back in the force org...originally they were an elite that did not count as an elite choice...

There is no issue here...you can't take them as non FoC elites because Coteaz makes them troop choices...you can have up to 72 henchmenand up to 9 razorbacks given (3 elite razors and 6 troops)

Not only are you wrong, but even if you were part right, you would still be wrong. If you take Coteaz, you can't take elites Henchmen. If I tell you that Henchmen count as troops, that's it. They count as troops. Not elites.
Nowhere in Coteaz's rules does it say anything about them taking up force org spots again.

Henchmen without Coteaz:
Elites, 1 per inquisitor, does not take up force org

Henchmen with Coteaz:
Troops, not limited by number of inquisitors, does not take up force org

Apparently you're not reading my comment's closely enough...I did in fact say that you can't take non FoC elites when you take Coteaz.

Read the pdf more carefullly...they count as troop "choices"...each one is one of your 6 troop choices...this was written purposefully so (and was purposefully not included in the definition of henchmen standing without coteaz)...as they understood this issue would arise.

However it seems there are those out there who will try to find the loophole and exploit it until the FaQ comes out.

It says they "count as" troop choices. This is not the same as actually "being" troop choices. Just as a CSM lord with Wings "counts as" jump infantry, but doesn't actually change his unit type and thus can board a transport.

pixelpusher wrote:Preparedness and process. It's not uncommon to have something more or less done layoutwise way before the deadline. Makes it way easier to request artwork or photos to fill empty space or tell the writer that they have to shorten text because it won't fit or looks weird due to excessive hyphenation.

Now I said that =][= (see what I did there?) would do it in an afternoon. I bet that if you're on the "art department" and are into the process you'd do it way faster. But then again, you always need breaks for a coffee and a cigarette!

Lol, sorry for the snapiness, the facepalm set me a bit off. I guess you're right. And I also hope you're right, which means this mess of a codex would change.

I doubt it though.

(Yes, C&C is essential, though when I was working for my final project I'd often light a cigarrette and forget it in the ashtray).

It's not a loophole. It works exactly the same way as Codex Space wolves and wolf guard or any other similar force org shuffling.

If henchmen count as troops, then they don't count as elites. You can't take unlimited elite henchmen with coteaz. You can't take 3 elite henchmen with coteaz. You can't take any elite henchmen as coteaz.

Troops choices are troops choices. It's not complicated.
Henchmen have 2 rules effecting their force org slots.

One says they don't take slots.
One says they are limited to 1 per inquisitor.
And then there's the fact that they are Elites.

Coteaz changes that to:
They don't take slots (totally unchanged)
Unlimited by inquisitor (changed by coteaz)
Count as troops (changed by coteaz)


I honestly don't know how to explain this more clearly to you without breaking out the crayons.

Vaktathi wrote:It says they "count as" troop choices. This is not the same as actually "being" troop choices. Just as a CSM lord with Wings "counts as" jump infantry, but doesn't actually change his unit type and thus can board a transport.

While I see your logic by this point I must also so that while he is counting as jump infantry...that does mean he counts as a FAST choice (and if that were true then you could take him in the fast section). And here, we must see that there were specifically stated as being troops choices...when all that needed to be said if they were to still exist outside the force org is that they would be scoring units...much like Pedro Kantor and Sternguard.


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ph34r wrote:
If henchmen count as troops, then they don't count as elites. You can't take unlimited elite henchmen with coteaz. You can't take 3 elite henchmen with coteaz. You can't take any elite henchmen as coteaz.
.

Bingo...now you got it.

ductvader wrote:

ph34r wrote:
If henchmen count as troops, then they don't count as elites. You can't take unlimited elite henchmen with coteaz. You can't take 3 elite henchmen with coteaz. You can't take any elite henchmen as coteaz.
.

Bingo...now you got it.

So this means you don't remember posting this 5 minutes ago, right?

ductvader wrote:There is no issue here...you can't take them as non FoC elites because Coteaz makes them troop choices...you can have up to 72 henchmenand up to 9 razorbacks given (3 elite razors and 6 troops)

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I'm glad you finally understand that you can take unlimited henchmen as troops with Coteaz. I'm impressed by your ability to use logic and reasoning.

Oh...I see where you misunderstood me...I was just counting the maximum number of razorbacks...given 6 henchmen squads and 3 purifiers...to give a general understanding of the razor knight list...no worries.

ductvader wrote:Oh...I see where you misunderstood me...I was just counting the maximum number of razorbacks...given 6 henchmen squads and 3 purifiers...to give a general understanding of the razor knight list...no worries.

Ah yes. Your post was very unclear. Good of you to clarify it.

ph34r wrote:It also says "[henchmen] do not use up a force organization slot". Durrr.

Curse people that willfully choose to read things in the maximally perverse way.

It is frigging OBVIOUS that what Coteaz does, is remove the relationship of henchmen to other inquisitors.

There-friggin-fore:

* You can take up to six units
* The 'For each INQUISITIOR...' rules in the Henchmen entry are removed by choosing Coteaz. They don't exist.

That whole statement is invalid if you take Coteaz.

I'll use smaller words:

Take Coteaz, henchmen now troops. Only 6 troops allowed. They now take up TROOPS FOC slots (boxes, choices, spaces, 4-sided geometric configurations...). Are no longer Elites choices.

If you are normal person with a decent grasp of the English language, game design, and the idea that games involving more than one person are generally intended to be fun for all of them - that's how you read it. If you are a powergamer who plays mostly to inflict misery on others...please go outside and play - in traffic. Now.

If they insert one simple statement, that's all they'd need to fix this particular problem.

- You can only have one inquisitor in your army if you choose to use Coteaz.

You can already get 6 razorbacks if you want them in most MEQ armies, so no problem. Oh, they're too cheap? Maybe that is deliberate because everything else is so expensive (and you're intended to take some of it)?

I have a feeling that these squads, in their current form, were intended to be like any MMO party - composed of tank, melee and/or ranged damage, and buffing elements. That is the obvious intent. 54 laser monkeys is not an obvious intent; and while I'd laugh at it and the guy that toted it to the table, I wouldn't play it.