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Alpharius wrote:Who exactly are you quoting there?

To prevent fights, I have stopped quoting names directly, especially if that quote is true on more than 1 person.

But it is still a direct quote, hence its searchable if you need it to be.

Oh dont worry ken, its not nick

He's quoting me, and he's also taking it out of context. I was making fun of someone who said the Blood Tide was "A dead horse" topic

That was me. And i was refering to fact that it had already been flogged in this thread.

Nom

Kanluwen wrote:Except it wasn't the "soulless OldCrons". It was the "NewCrons" as you put it, and a "preview" of the direction Necrons were going for their fluff.

We had indications of the new direction for Necrons from C: Blood Angels and the novels "Fall of Damnos" and "Dead Men Walking".

Except that the NewCron Codex wasn't out, so they were still the OldCrons whether you like it or not. Until the NewCron Codex came out they were the OldCrons and subject to the majority of their fluff except where these other small pieces of fluff existed in other books. Previews don't work like that. All we had were some Necrons, that weren't acting like regular Necrons, and that made waves. You can't claim some sort of TIME PARADOX of using a future and yet to be released Codex to justify fluff from another Codex at the time. Does the Lord's personality and presence make sense NOW? Yes. But after the fact and the waves were already made.

That is actually another issue with GW and their lack of foresight on IP control. There was a long period of limbo between the BA alliance and the NewCron Codex where people were simply going WTF because of that act. Otherwise we end up in this horrible situation I envisage where they could rollout a bunch of these 'previews' as you put it in Codeci and books, and end up scrapping the final Codex that makes sense of it, and we have even more incongruity of the fluff all over the place. Novels are great because the writers have some leeway to make them internally consistent within the Novel, and a lot of space to do so and extrapolate should they need or wish to. But tiny fluff blurbs in Codeci with little to no context don't have that luxury and need to be treated as such.

As an aside, what about the bit in the Nid Codex (I think that is it) where the Necrons obliterate a Nid fleet, that saves some hapless Tau. The Tau open them with welcome arms and start to get harvested with no contact what so ever. They were consistent with the OldCron fluff, granted that the NewCrons could still fit that bill but I would think their Lord would at least want to rub in some sort of quip. And where is the line drawn about how far back we consider these previews to be? See this is the problem I have with them not keeping the fluff rollout linear. It is hard enough reconciling changes when they do keep it linear, let alone create these TIME PARADOXes.

Like I said, the Necrons were a poor choice for the time and they should have gone with something more established that made sense. I love some of the NewCron stuff, don't get me wrong, but they didn't exist at the time. So no dice as far as I am concerned.

My beef isn't the temporary alliance, as that's been done before. My beef is the way it was written.

Space Marines are *programmed* to hate the xenos scum. Not to honor them, or to find it in them to respect them, but to absolutely froth-at-the-mouth HATE them. So it shouldn't have been repugnant to turn on recent allies, but it should have been repugnant NOT to.

The enemy of my enemy is my enemy's enemy. Nothing more.

Chesh wrote:My beef isn't the temporary alliance, as that's been done before. My beef is the way it was written.

Space Marines are *programmed* to hate the xenos scum. Not to honor them, or to find it in them to respect them, but to absolutely froth-at-the-mouth HATE them. So it shouldn't have been repugnant to turn on recent allies, but it should have been repugnant NOT to.

The enemy of my enemy is my enemy's enemy. Nothing more.

You are thinking solely with haters like the Black Templars there buddy. There are progressive Marine Chapters who think outside the box and would consider alliances of necessity. Yes they are taught to revile the alien, but some are also taught to work out what is best in any given situation. And the principle that having no respect for your enemy leads you to underestimate them. Not entirely as black and white as they all will kill the xenos all the time in all situations depending on circumstances. But I agree with the issue being how it was written for me as well.

As an example of not all Space Marines are close minded dicks. There is that part in the Tau Codex (was in the original, think it is still in Tau Empire) where an Imperial Envoy with an Imperial Fists Captain as bodyguard is being led around a Tau world by what is presumed to be a Firewarrior. He shows them Tau tech and might in action, and the Fist actually acknowledges a begrudging respect for their firepower and what not. So whilst a Templar is never going to agree to an alliance of necessity with a xeno in any situation, I don't see an issue with a more progressive Chapter working with the Tau out of necessity to combat a greater threat. Then it just a matter of haggling over details of whom would betray whom first, and how, etc.

For me part of what I love about Deathwatch is getting to play around with all the different Chapter's mentalities and how they can conflict. My gregarious BA Apothecary nearly came to blows with our BT Assault Marine at one point because of these conflicts. We had a Tau Stealth suit pilot near death, and we wanted some info from him. Being the talker of the bunch I made an appeal to his sense of honor, if he had one, and offered him a quick and painless death in exchange for the information. He gave it, and before I could administer something for the pain and release him from this life painlessly as per our agreement, the BA just cut him open with his Chainsword saying "This is taking too long and the xeno has no honor to uphold!" or something to that effect. As far as my BA was concerned HIS honor has been besmirched by not being allowed to honor the pact and made that known. It was a run little RP point. And plenty of various conflicts like that have come up afterwards.

Blood Angels aren't a "progressive" chapter.

Kanluwen wrote:

BattleGoat74 wrote:I don't really hate Matt Ward, its just the massive amount of fanboyism he puts into codexes.

And then he does it for Necrons.
And Blood Angels.
And Grey Knights.


It's almost like he's trying to sell you on the army...

Haha right..

Use the Codecies for the army lists and pretty pictures.
Go read Black Library for a more generally objective (am I allowed to say realistic?) account of the 40k universe.

Chesh wrote:Blood Angels aren't a "progressive" chapter.

But they aren't close minded like BTs either. Remember that their Primarch had wings, a super visible mutation. Dante has drilled 'Whatever works to win' into their heads for the most part. And once again they make a HUGE deal about the 'He who sheds blood' thing.

Sorry I had to just use the term progressive as I thought it best fit. We might have clashing definitions here which causes contention.

All I am trying to say is they aren't the SEE XENO KILL XENO AT ALL COSTS type mentality that the BT have. They learned the lesson of that hubris from the first Space Hulk incident.

I'm trying to remember if Dante had any instances of a xeno alliance in the past. Might dig out my old Angels of Death and 3rd Ed Codeci later to check if I have it wrong or that it doesn't gel anymore.

Pacific wrote:Go read Black Library for a more generally objective (am I allowed to say realistic?) account of the 40k universe.

FFG books as well. They do a half decent job of reconciling as much of the fluff as possible. They even turned the GK stuff palatable for me with their take on it. And where in doubt they keep it vague enough for the reader to decide. Like with the St.Pious thing.

No doubt the discrepancy, and the contrast in both writing style and content, will be most pronounced when we finally get to read 'The Emperor's Gift' by Aaron Dembski-Bowden.

Atma01 wrote:Remember that their Primarch had wings, a super visible mutation.

Which was more acceptable before the inquisition started, while the Emperor was still alive and kicking, instead of just occasionally twitching. There's also the whole "died protecting him" bit that probably earned Sanguinius a free pass.

Note that outside that one time Tzeentch decided to screw with the BA that they haven't exactly been spouting wings.

And yes, they are rather close-minded, because any hint of corruption would get the entire chapter wiped out The inquisition already sniffs around the chapter, thanks to the rather "odd" practices. There's a difference between Dante's "anything to win" mentality and the entire chapter's "wanting to keep the inquisition out" business.

I'm pretty sure you won't find anything in the Angels of Death codex or the 3ed book showing them allying with xenos. And that whole "he who sheds blood" thing was a Matt Ward contrivance for his Necron alliance on Gehenna. It hasn't been mentioned before in any of the BA fluff that I can remember. You might be thinking of the blood RAVENS, who have a few lines to that effect in the DoW game, and it's kind of a theme in the CS Goto omnibus (which was so bad it was denied by GW, despite their notorious lax constraints over their own IP).

Chesh wrote:Which was more acceptable before the inquisition started, while the Emperor was still alive and kicking, instead of just occasionally twitching. There's also the whole "died protecting him" bit that probably earned Sanguinius a free pass.

Note that outside that one time Tzeentch decided to screw with the BA that they haven't exactly been spouting wings.

And yes, they are rather close-minded, because any hint of corruption would get the entire chapter wiped out The inquisition already sniffs around the chapter, thanks to the rather "odd" practices. There's a difference between Dante's "anything to win" mentality and the entire chapter's "wanting to keep the inquisition out" business.

I'm pretty sure you won't find anything in the Angels of Death codex or the 3ed book showing them allying with xenos. And that whole "he who sheds blood" thing was a Matt Ward contrivance for his Necron alliance on Gehenna. It hasn't been mentioned before in any of the BA fluff that I can remember. You might be thinking of the blood RAVENS, who have a few lines to that effect in the DoW game, and it's kind of a theme in the CS Goto omnibus (which was so bad it was denied by GW, despite their notorious lax constraints over their own IP).

3rd Ed Codex, Pg.3, top right hand side of the page in the boxed out section. Has the 'He who sheds blood' quote. HOWEVER, and this I didn't know or remember, it says it is the Last line of the Invocation Initiate of the Flesh Tearers. So it does predate the coming of Ward, but seems to have been for the Flesh Tearers. My bad.

And going over some more stuff in here yeah I am starting to see that I think had it wrong these years. I thought I remembered Dante being more open minded for whatever works, but there are some pretty specific spiels from him that would indicate otherwise. I can't even justify them allying out of necessity anymore. Thank you for enlightening me Brother. I could have sworn they had some sort of honor code though, and I am sure that I got that before Ward.

Dammit I was defending a Wardism erroneously. I have some penance to do.

All I have left unsullied now are my beloved Blood Ravens. Please Emperor don't ever let them get a Codex. It opens them up for the machinations of Ward. If they get touched I am calling it quits as a loyalist and finally signing that pact with Tzeentch. And I am sure that bastard is cackling 'Just as planned' right about now.

All I have left unsullied now are my beloved Blood Ravens. Please Emperor don't ever let them get a Codex. It opens them up for the machinations of Ward. If they get touched I am calling it quits as a loyalist and finally signing that pact with Tzeentch. And I am sure that bastard is cackling 'Just as planned' right about now.

I wouldn't mind a BR type codex, by the gods I would love to have a librarian squad to show those battle psykers who can rock the battlefield!

ZebioLizard2 wrote:I wouldn't mind a BR type codex, by the gods I would love to have a librarian squad to show those battle psykers who can rock the battlefield!

I honestly wanted that once as well. But now my frail heart couldn't take it.

UNLESS.... that potential sodomy also came with a reach around of BR models being released. That would almost make it worth it. Almost.

Though I think we all know by now that GW doesn't have the courtesy to give its fanbase a reach around.

I think my collapse into madness would finally be complete should they ever releae yet another space marine codex.

Weren't the blood ravens a c.s.goto chapter?

NOm

Two things:

One, eww. Keep your kinks to yourself.
Two, you guys are talking about BR as a pristine chapter when they were popularized by 'Dawn of War' and metal bawkses, blah blah.

nomsheep wrote:I think my collapse into madness would finally be complete should they ever releae yet another space marine codex.

Weren't the blood ravens a c.s.goto chapter?

NOm

Created by GW at the request of Relic for Dawn of War. Goto just got to write the Novels. And that started his legacy.

pretre wrote:Two things:

One, eww. Keep your kinks to yourself.
Two, you guys are talking about BR as a pristine chapter when they were popularized by 'Dawn of War' and metal bawkses, blah blah.

Its called a joke. Using a thing called hyperbole and analogy. Sadly I didn't intend the word analogy there as a pun.

And they were popular before the memes started. Just not AS popular. Metal Boxes didn't start until Soultstorm I believe as that had the line in it. And that is 4 games in. The bloody magpies thing didn't even start until DoW2 even. So no. They were popular LONG before those things started.

4 edits? >.< I think that means it is bedtime! Night!