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 necrovamp wrote:
Because of the direction they have taken, alientaing the loyal customers they are likely to mkae less money, if the loyal customers stop buying eveything. Less people buying stuff=less profits.

I doubt "we" matter anymore. Hardcore 40k fans, of the type that register on internet forums are like these brony-types that have popped up everywhere. They're loud, might be incredibly into a thing and spend a lot of money/time on it, but are nothing but a tiny speck on the overall sales charts. We're the bronies of 40k, utterly insignificant to the brand and its fortunes, dwarfed as we are by the invisible population of transient noobs who grow into and out of the hobby over six months.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

 necrovamp wrote:
Because of the direction they have taken, alientaing the loyal customers they are likely to mkae less money, if the loyal customers stop buying eveything. Less people buying stuff=less profits.

I doubt "we" matter anymore. Hardcore 40k fans, of the type that register on internet forums are like these brony-types that have popped up everywhere. They're loud, might be incredibly into a thing and spend a lot of money/time on it, but are nothing but a tiny speck on the overall sales charts. We're the bronies of 40k, utterly insignificant to the brand and its fortunes, dwarfed as we are by the invisible population of transient noobs who grow into and out of the hobby over six months.

Not sure how I feel like being a 40K Bronie!

Yeah but you alternate who gets the first move in chess and both sides have queens.

 necrovamp wrote:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

 necrovamp wrote:
Because of the direction they have taken, alientaing the loyal customers they are likely to mkae less money, if the loyal customers stop buying eveything. Less people buying stuff=less profits.

I doubt "we" matter anymore. Hardcore 40k fans, of the type that register on internet forums are like these brony-types that have popped up everywhere. They're loud, might be incredibly into a thing and spend a lot of money/time on it, but are nothing but a tiny speck on the overall sales charts. We're the bronies of 40k, utterly insignificant to the brand and its fortunes, dwarfed as we are by the invisible population of transient noobs who grow into and out of the hobby over six months.

Not sure how I feel like being a 40K Bronie!

Embrace it.

It's been said before in the thread, but GW does not have a community representative (since stores and facebook pages don't seem to count?) because all the feedback they'd get is what a bunch of morons they are, and how "we" know business way better than they do, and rants about how "our" show-up-and-win lists get less effective in a new edition.

battleranch wrote:
Well Fafnir. I don't believe you. I don't think you actually like 40k.

Yes, I give in. I don't like actually 40k.

That truescale marine army that I lovingly converted, that cost more for 16 models than you'll probably pay for all the armies you'll ever play, and that I wrote 16 pages of fluff for, was only because I didn't actually like 40k in the first place.

All those Inquisitor models I converted and wrote more fluff for? Same thing, because I didn't like 40k.

The Daemonhunter/Grey Knight, Ork, and Death Korps armies that I've invested so heavily into, many with their own very involving conversions and paintjobs? Yeah, because I do not like 40k, and I never did.

I'm done with you.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

 necrovamp wrote:
Because of the direction they have taken, alientaing the loyal customers they are likely to mkae less money, if the loyal customers stop buying eveything. Less people buying stuff=less profits.

I doubt "we" matter anymore. Hardcore 40k fans, of the type that register on internet forums are like these brony-types that have popped up everywhere. They're loud, might be incredibly into a thing and spend a lot of money/time on it, but are nothing but a tiny speck on the overall sales charts. We're the bronies of 40k, utterly insignificant to the brand and its fortunes, dwarfed as we are by the invisible population of transient noobs who grow into and out of the hobby over six months.

Its true, GW is probably going off the numbers they get from their stores, when I worked for them the average new person spent $1500 in the first year, the "vets" was $500 or less, and selling 100+ starters a month vs the dozen boxes the neck beards bought, its obvious where the focus is. Its showing even moreso now that GW is pulling tables out of stores and getting really anal about "loitering", "vets" have (mostly) informed opinions that can taint otherwise blissfully ignorant noobs.

 necrovamp wrote:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

 necrovamp wrote:
Because of the direction they have taken, alientaing the loyal customers they are likely to mkae less money, if the loyal customers stop buying eveything. Less people buying stuff=less profits.

I doubt "we" matter anymore. Hardcore 40k fans, of the type that register on internet forums are like these brony-types that have popped up everywhere. They're loud, might be incredibly into a thing and spend a lot of money/time on it, but are nothing but a tiny speck on the overall sales charts. We're the bronies of 40k, utterly insignificant to the brand and its fortunes, dwarfed as we are by the invisible population of transient noobs who grow into and out of the hobby over six months.

Not sure how I feel like being a 40K Bronie!

I am certain bronies have a much bigger effect on my little pony then hardcore warhammer players do on GW
though hasbro doesn't seem to like bronies much and will probably run MLP into the ground to be rid of them... then wonder where the fanbase went
though that is a topic for another day, this isn 't a pony thread...yet

 MightyGodzilla wrote:
Yeah but you alternate who gets the first move in chess ...

Which only matters if you're playing more than one game...

 Ravenous D wrote:
Its true, GW is probably going off the numbers they get from their stores, when I worked for them the average new person spent $1500 in the first year, the "vets" was $500 or less, and selling 100+ starters a month vs the dozen boxes the neck beards bought, its obvious where the focus is. Its showing even moreso now that GW is pulling tables out of stores and getting really anal about "loitering", "vets" have (mostly) informed opinions that can taint otherwise blissfully ignorant noobs.

And it's this simplistic idea of things that adds one more reason to the list of why GW needs to die ASAP and get taken over by someone who knows how to run a gaming company. You'd have to be a short-sighted idiot to write off the veteran players, since they're a big part of the reason WHY you sell so much to newbies. They might not buy as much themselves, but they keep the community going, put awesome complete armies on the table and give new players something to envy, ensure that there's always a game going on and make a new customer confident that their $1500 investment isn't just going to sit around collecting dust with nobody to play against, give free advertising by telling everyone they know about how awesome your game is, etc. If you drive away the older players you lose all that, and new customers have a lot less reason to become customers.

Unfortunately that kind of short-sighted idiocy is entirely typical of GW's management, and the only thing that can change it is for the company to die.

 Fafnir wrote:
I'm done with you.

Gak! I must hate 40K as well. That's the only explanation!

battleranch wrote:
. You should realize you are expendable to them. You're not going to buy 2 or 3 armies any more. Why should they care about what you say?

Sigged. So sigged.

 Peregrine wrote:

And it's this simplistic idea of things that adds one more reason to the list of why GW needs to die ASAP and get taken over by someone who knows how to run a gaming company. You'd have to be a short-sighted idiot to write off the veteran players, since they're a big part of the reason WHY you sell so much to newbies. They might not buy as much themselves, but they keep the community going, put awesome complete armies on the table and give new players something to envy, ensure that there's always a game going on and make a new customer confident that their $1500 investment isn't just going to sit around collecting dust with nobody to play against, give free advertising by telling everyone they know about how awesome your game is, etc. If you drive away the older players you lose all that, and new customers have a lot less reason to become customers.

Unfortunately that kind of short-sighted idiocy is entirely typical of GW's management, and the only thing that can change it is for the company to die.

Yes, let's get WotC in here which will change to a MtG model where they force your old models and units to be unplayable every 2 years so you constantly have to buy an entire new army.

Also, WotC has been C&D happy to tons of Kickstarters... if you think GW has a monopoly on trying to sue 3rd parties out of business, WotC is doing it even more than GW is. The difference is WotC is even better at it.

No company is ever going to keep the 'veterans' happy. I don't know of a single fandom anywhere on the internet where the 'veterans' don't hate everything the company does which is business driven and not catering to them as the primary focus even though these 'vets' overestimate their worth and percentage of income.

It is almost universal that 'vets' are unpleasable, unreasonable and have much much much less of a purchasing impact than they think they do. If GW had a community rep, it would do what HASBRO does... Tells the 'community' that you angry unhappy old men buying their toys make up less than 10% of the market so quit your bitchin.

I don't really see how 'vets' are hard done by. We already got into the game when it was a lot less expensive and now we need less but can still buy it and it's just fine.

What am I missing? Did GW kick a bunch of neckbeards out of their shop for standing around and being all jaded, talking about kickstarters and Corvus Belli?

The only thing anyone has a gripe about is the price, which is going up all the time. That sucks for everyone.

This may have already been said but here goes:

GW will never have a community manager because that would mean they were willing to listen to expressed concerns and act upon them in some meaningful away. The moment you publicize an open forum where this community representative will manage and promote discussion that NEW customers can be directed to, you are giving up some of the control on how the customer perceives the hobby.

That's not to say GW does not care, but its that they are not willing to give up any sort of brand image that gives anyone the impression it's not the land of sunshine user level. I am still surprised they have Facebook pages (albeit heavily supervised for posted content).

GW does have an Outreach Manager but the title seems to be a misnomer.

nkelsch wrote:

Yes, let's get WotC in here which will change to a MtG model where they force your old models and units to be unplayable every 2 years so you constantly have to buy an entire new army.

That rather misrepresents how it works. It depends on the format that is being played. You have 'Standard', which covers the most recent two years only, 'Modern', which is nearly 10 years and 'Legacy'/'Vintage' which go back to the beginning of about 20 years. Of all cards ever printed, only a tiny fraction are banned from play making them unusable, which is a lot more than can be said of the last two decades of GW miniatures in which whole ranges have been axed.

This means with MtG that if you want to only ever play Standard then your cards will go obsolete, this it true. But you're overlooking the fact that there are commonly played formats in which they are still legal. Also you know well before hand that these cards are only legal two years, unlike GW releases in which you don't know what will be dropped as each codex is released. Standard is good for newcomers because all the cards of the last two years are readily available, and other formats are good for older players who have older collections of cards that are out of print. If they didn't have the concept of 'Standard', then newcomers would always be competing with a pool of tens of thousands of cards spanning decades, many out of print and with unobtainable collectors values, which is just ridiculous.

But no, building a game around several formats to appeal to all sorts of players, that's just stupid.

Actually, lets look at all the other dumb stuff WotC do for Magic. They maintain a full online database of all the cards printed with rulings of each and a website with daily articles about decklists being played around the world at tournaments, or those being sent in by gamers, or discussing the design process behind cards and sets. They also have all their rules printed in full on their website. When there's a new set of cards released, in the weeks beforehand the entire set is 'leaked' onto the internet a few cards each day. Then you get various events, the first being a week before general release, but also their 'Game Days' held afterwards as well as the numerous Tournaments. At these you can win cards and other things exclusive to those events, every friday is their Friday Night Magic in which in addition to any local prize pool, you can win alternate art cards by either winning the evening, or being part of a random draw at the end of the night. So it's not only the winners who stand to get something. In fact, their releases in general, feel like 'Events' that are memorable. What does GW do? Clamp down on discussion and then put the stuff out with a tiny fanfare in White Dwarf.

From what I can see, Wizards do a lot to make each release event a memorable one and encourage a community through multiple events, they run Tournaments nationally and internationally, there are prizes big and small as well as odds and ends just for turning up so everyone gets a little something to take home, and their engagement online is good too with reader submissions on questions/decklists and running their own forums. Does GW do ANY of those things? Sure, Hasbro is a big company and like all companies I'm sure there are plenty of things to criticise, but the way MtG is handled for the gaming community puts GW's meagre efforts to shame.

Just as an example, here's a story about the kind of positive impact a good customer interaction can have for a company. After reading the story, scroll down the the comments section and read the overwhelmingly positive reactions given by common people:

http://games.yahoo.com/blogs/plugged-in/boy-writes-letter-lego-losing-minifigure-gets-awesome-220816003.html

nkelsch wrote:
Yes, let's get WotC in here which will change to a MtG model where they force your old models and units to be unplayable every 2 years so you constantly have to buy an entire new army.

As a person who has played a lot of MtG and GW games, I need to weigh in on this. First of all MtG is a finished product straight out of the box. No painting, no assembly, just play with the cards. Secondly, people talk about MtG changing every 3 months because of new set release and GW never changing, this is partially true.

- I can play up to 4 of any MtG card in any deck if I am playing casual. There is no requirement I ever update the deck. Minimum entry price is $30 plus some donated lands.
- I can play the vast majority of cards in Legacy tournaments which will set me back $2000 for a competitive deck. The is no requirement to update the deck unless I want remain competitive, which may run $250 a year.
- I can only play the two most recent blocks and the most recent core set in Standard tournaments which will set me back $500 for a competitive deck. There will be a requirement to update the deck at least once a year when the block rotates, which will run around $400 every year.
- Draft and sealed are played with product which must be purchased.

- I can play any of my models in 40K at the casual level and disregard WYSIWYG. I am not required to buy any models from GW and can play with postit notes if I want. Minimum entry price is $100 for core rules and 2 codexes.
- I can play in tournament, but the army must typically be GW models which are WYSIWYG. GW changes the rules every edition meaning I will need to pick one of two options; be competitive or not. If I choose to be non-competitive, I'll field what I have. If I choose to be competitive I will need to update my models to meet the current WYSIWYG standards and probably buy new models for the most recent OP unit (flyers currently). I would guess this is going to be about $500 in GW product, plus another $250 in labor for initial investment and then another $200 every year for rework and new models.
- GW also does this lovely thing known as codex creep, meaning you need to buy a whole new army to be competitive. Another $750.

In the end, MtG and 40K are both money pits, with each taking large sums of money if a person wishes to be continually competitive. Either game is as cheap or expensive as you want it to be.

Anybody who thinks WotC could do a worse job of this than GW is, I assume, completely ignorant of how WotC (in particular Magic) positions itself and deals with it's fans. Mark Rosewater has written a PhD level discourse on game design FOR FREE over the past decade on the Magic website and that is the tip of the iceberg as far as their fan/community interaction goes.

It is far easier for any company to just "lurk" it is not like we as a community are not free with our opinions and they need to be dragged out of us.

We are not likely to take any opinions from them with any degree of grace either without being bombarded with posts or private messages.

It is far more fun all of us being "peers" and your opinion is no better than mine... but I think mine is better anyway.

 Talizvar wrote:
It is far easier for any company to just "lurk" it is not like we as a community are not free with our opinions and they need to be dragged out of us.

We are not likely to take any opinions from them with any degree of grace either without being bombarded with posts or private messages.

It is far more fun all of us being "peers" and your opinion is no better than mine... but I think mine is better anyway.

Actually, if you look at the Through the Breach thread in News and Rumors, there are two people posting in there, Lalochezia and Miggidy_Mack, these two guys work for Wyrd (the company making Through the Breach). Since they started posting, there has been a level of openness with them answering questions and giving us hints, etc... A lot of tension has been relieved since their entrance in the thread.

a community representative can help improve the image of the company, and alleviate stress... The problem becomes again, GW has no interest in answering our question, etc...

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Talizvar wrote:
It is far easier for any company to just "lurk" it is not like we as a community are not free with our opinions and they need to be dragged out of us.

We are not likely to take any opinions from them with any degree of grace either without being bombarded with posts or private messages.

It is far more fun all of us being "peers" and your opinion is no better than mine... but I think mine is better anyway.

Actually, if you look at the Through the Breach thread in News and Rumors, there are two people posting in there, Lalochezia and Miggidy_Mack, these two guys work for Wyrd (the company making Through the Breach). Since they started posting, there has been a level of openness with them answering questions and giving us hints, etc... A lot of tension has been relieved since their entrance in the thread.

a community representative can help improve the image of the company, and alleviate stress... The problem becomes again, GW has no interest in answering our question, etc...

New companies would have some measure of kindness shown to them since they have no history of past "sins" people feel they should be accountable for.
I am glad there is a feeling of progress with Wyrd, I just think it may not continue as expectations ramp up.

I think GW is trying to model themselves after Apple: market a pretty series of products and do not admit that there are problems with said products.

I personally believe that to at least look for a means of demonstrating a passion for your product and being on the hunt to make it better can be respected.

 Talizvar wrote:
New companies would have some measure of kindness shown to them since they have no history of past "sins" people feel they should be accountable for.

And so it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. GW can't have a community representative because of their past sins, but because they don't have a community representative (among other things) they continue to add more sins, therefore ensuring that they'll always have sins to be guilty of and never participate in the community. GW needs to just accept that even if it might be difficult at first the long-term health of the game is what is important.

 Talizvar wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Talizvar wrote:
It is far easier for any company to just "lurk" it is not like we as a community are not free with our opinions and they need to be dragged out of us.

We are not likely to take any opinions from them with any degree of grace either without being bombarded with posts or private messages.

It is far more fun all of us being "peers" and your opinion is no better than mine... but I think mine is better anyway.

Actually, if you look at the Through the Breach thread in News and Rumors, there are two people posting in there, Lalochezia and Miggidy_Mack, these two guys work for Wyrd (the company making Through the Breach). Since they started posting, there has been a level of openness with them answering questions and giving us hints, etc... A lot of tension has been relieved since their entrance in the thread.

a community representative can help improve the image of the company, and alleviate stress... The problem becomes again, GW has no interest in answering our question, etc...

New companies would have some measure of kindness shown to them since they have no history of past "sins" people feel they should be accountable for.
I am glad there is a feeling of progress with Wyrd, I just think it may not continue as expectations ramp up.

I think GW is trying to model themselves after Apple: market a pretty series of products and do not admit that there are problems with said products.

I personally believe that to at least look for a means of demonstrating a passion for your product and being on the hunt to make it better can be respected.

How about Reaper then? They are over 20 years old and regularly interact at all levels with their customers. They are not even afraid of jumping into discussions with those who are actively hating on their products and take their lumps along the way. You can speak with all levels of the company without much difficulty from production, design all the way to Ed at the top.

 Peregrine wrote:
And so it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. GW can't have a community representative because of their past sins, but because they don't have a community representative (among other things) they continue to add more sins, therefore ensuring that they'll always have sins to be guilty of and never participate in the community. GW needs to just accept that even if it might be difficult at first the long-term health of the game is what is important.

Oooh! You said the magic words:

'long term'

Not something that factors into much of what GW does really.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
And so it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. GW can't have a community representative because of their past sins, but because they don't have a community representative (among other things) they continue to add more sins, therefore ensuring that they'll always have sins to be guilty of and never participate in the community. GW needs to just accept that even if it might be difficult at first the long-term health of the game is what is important.

Oooh! You said the magic words:

'long term'

Not something that factors into much of what GW does really.

Yeah. This is the reason for my hope that GW dies as quickly as possible and gets bought by a company that can run things properly.

 Peregrine wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
And so it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. GW can't have a community representative because of their past sins, but because they don't have a community representative (among other things) they continue to add more sins, therefore ensuring that they'll always have sins to be guilty of and never participate in the community. GW needs to just accept that even if it might be difficult at first the long-term health of the game is what is important.

Oooh! You said the magic words:

'long term'

Not something that factors into much of what GW does really.

Yeah. This is the reason for my hope that GW dies as quickly as possible and gets bought by a company that can run things properly.

Like who?

No matter who bought GW, there would always be someone pissing and moaning about the direction of the company. Its what gamers do!

Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
Like who?

No matter who bought GW, there would always be someone pissing and moaning about the direction of the company. Its what gamers do!

As I've already mentioned, my preference is WotC, since they've done a very good job of handling MTG. Especially in the context of community support/interaction GW could really learn a few lessons from them.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Talizvar wrote:
New companies would have some measure of kindness shown to them since they have no history of past "sins" people feel they should be accountable for.

And so it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. GW can't have a community representative because of their past sins, but because they don't have a community representative (among other things) they continue to add more sins, therefore ensuring that they'll always have sins to be guilty of and never participate in the community. GW needs to just accept that even if it might be difficult at first the long-term health of the game is what is important.

But it's haaaaaaard.

I don't have any WotC games, though D&D certainly is appealing to the sword-and-sorcery extremely cheesy fantasy lover that has taken over me in the past month.

From what I can gather, they've managed to create a very good community. The D&D forum especially is a very friendly forum. After a few months, the admins haven't shut down the thread where I asked about Pathfinder (though the responses were overwhelming pro-D&D).

The games they produce, as far as I can tell, are excellent. They are actively supported and stuff. The company is even re-releasing AD&D 1st Edition! I can't imagine GW re-releasing Rogue Trader or the Harry the Hammer WFB games.

The hobby may not do so well with WotC since their wargaming rules have been, let's face it, failures. However, it would not be disastrous at all.

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
The hobby may not do so well with WotC since their wargaming rules have been, let's face it, failures. However, it would not be disastrous at all.

On the other hand, WotC isn't stupid. If they buy GW they know they've got an established game with an existing community, and I think they'd be smart enough to find people who know wargames and improve on that base instead of running it into the ground. And they certainly wouldn't do worse than GW is already doing with their rules...

Although I'm not sure it was even a failure, IIRC their Star Wars miniature game was fairly successful and only died because of licensing issues.