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 Selym wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 Selym wrote:
The lascannons are an upgrade ro a unit. Tactical marines with lascannon upgrades have to remain in unit coherency, and so to HWT upgrades.
Additionally, firing them precludes charging, too.

I'm sorry but you need to know the rules. And the rules state extremely clearly that as long as the Lascannons themselves do not move, they can fire normally. How do people not know this? Obviouly I cannot charge if I fire them. Obviously.

The point appears to have glanced your head. If you want to assault with this blob, you'll need to move fully every movement phase. Now the lascannons snapshot as they have to remain in coherency. To even stand a chance at assaulting, you also need to run. Now the lascannons are worthless. On the ONE turn you don't run (assuming you weren't tabled on T2/3) you still can't use the lascannons, as you'll be charging.

You cannot get HWT upgrades to work in this colossal failure of a "Deathstar".

Actually what you said is that i am cheating by firing them when i move. You were dead wrong. Dont play games.

Martel732 wrote:

Kharne the Befriender wrote:
Are salamanders good?

Yes.

How good?

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
He's not trolling. From your descriptions your scene seems to be extremely different than most. And if your meta is that much different, than your observations and ideas will not work the same elsewhere.

He is trolling and in third grade, his argument of "See see, you didn't deny it" would have impressed me.

Akiasura wrote:
What is the FW thread? I saw reference to Jancoran in some of the other threads and it...wasn't great.
I'm starting to feel bad about it but that's probably because I'm not engaging him directly anymore.

There was a "why are people weird about FW" thread, in which he was vehemently anti-forgeworld.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/667942.page

The one about how people feel about FW as a whole. The thread died since he cowardly stopped responding to people calling him out on his hypocrisy.

 Jancoran wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
He's not trolling. From your descriptions your scene seems to be extremely different than most. And if your meta is that much different, than your observations and ideas will not work the same elsewhere.

He is trolling and in third grade, his argument of "See see, you disdnt deny it" would have impressed me.

It's a very legitimate concern. Which you haven't answered. Now that doesn't mean that he's right, but it's still a concern. I

 Jancoran wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
GenCon SoCal, back in the day.

We are talking about competitiveness, so it makes perfect sense to me that someone with actual wins would be a better speaker on the topic.

And you claiming people need to have won a big tournament to have anopinion is an absurdity that speaks to all i need to know about the value of that opinion.

I've won enough for anyone to say I know the game. i also have done things in an unorthodox way that DOES indeed run counter to some of the Netlisting that goes on and Its a reputation i wear with pride because I'm not a drone. People with different ideas are always treated like this and we are quite used to it.

But since you've won nothing major, your own standard precludes you from discussions anyways. In your opinion. Ya' might wanna' think about it.

And your comment tells me all that I need to know about how competitive you really are.

You may have won "enough" in your tiny, casual pond, but that's a far cry from a larger tournament of any sort, and certainly not enough for me to consider you knowledgeable.

From a casual reading of our back-and-forth, it appears that I've won bigger and better than you. And I would suspect that much of the rest of the chorus here also has a better understanding of the game than you.

Anyhow, I feel bad for this thread that I didn't just ignore you earlier, but better late than never.

*ignored*.

Give it up guys, he's clearly delusional:

 Jancoran wrote:
I can kill most of the bikes in an Eldar army in turn one with my Adepta Sororitas. Most Dark Eldar can do it in turn two if they are willing to try. The same BASIC ideas that work against a Tau gunline work against the Jetbikes because while they certainly are fast, the board isn't infinite in size.

"Why you shouldn't use FW":

 Jancoran wrote:

If half the people who rally to the Forge World banner were being honest with themselves they'd just come right out and say it: I want to play with my toys. It's that simple for them. Finding some rationale for it is human but ultimately, thats where it comes from. The others are the super competitive types who wouldnt touch a subpar unit with a ten foot pole.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Answer the question directly. Is your locals actually competitive, or casual? If it is competitive, what lists would one expect to see?

It's real fething simple, and your failure to answer questions and flatout ignore certain posters has made you look like a fool in the FW thread and now this one.

We are a competitive meta. We have some of the top players here and I am attending a tournament with some this weekend (actuyally i will be in two different tournaments this weekend).

Your appraisal of my "tomfoolery" aside, i am not one. You would learn that quickly enough if you knew me. But you dont. And they dont. So its a stupid thing for me to worry about. So I don't.

Here is an example of a 1500 point list I am considering for the second tournament I'm travelling to this weekend. The first tournament is to raise money for the Childrens hospital so I won't bother with that list:

Eldar - Combined Arms Detachment

Farseer Skyrunner - Spirit Stone of Anath'lan - 130

5 Jetbikes - 5 Scatter Lasers - 125
5 Jetbikes - 5 Scatter Lasers - 125
5 Jetbikes - 5 Scatter Lasers - 125

Crimson Hunter - 140

Wraithknight - 2 Heavy Wraithcannons - 295

Aspect Host Formation

5 Fire Dragons - Exarch - 120
Wave Serpent - TL Scatter Laser - 115

5 Fire Dragons - Exarch - 120
Wave Serpent - TL Scatter Laser - 115

5 Swooping Hawks - Exarch - 90

Not that it matters. But that's what I'm probably taking.

There's no way in hell that's your meta if an IG blob is the height of cheese for you.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:


And your comment tells me all that I need to know about how competitive you really are.

Okay, winner.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Selym wrote:
There's no way in hell that's your meta if an IG blob is the height of cheese for you.

I'm just telling you what I'm taking. You wanted to know.

There is NO way that a list like that is going to have trouble with a Blobguard list. I'm calling you out as a liar right now for that.

 Jancoran wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 Selym wrote:
The lascannons are an upgrade ro a unit. Tactical marines with lascannon upgrades have to remain in unit coherency, and so to HWT upgrades.
Additionally, firing them precludes charging, too.

I'm sorry but you need to know the rules. And the rules state extremely clearly that as long as the Lascannons themselves do not move, they can fire normally. How do people not know this? Obviouly I cannot charge if I fire them. Obviously.

The point appears to have glanced your head. If you want to assault with this blob, you'll need to move fully every movement phase. Now the lascannons snapshot as they have to remain in coherency. To even stand a chance at assaulting, you also need to run. Now the lascannons are worthless. On the ONE turn you don't run (assuming you weren't tabled on T2/3) you still can't use the lascannons, as you'll be charging.

You cannot get HWT upgrades to work in this colossal failure of a "Deathstar".

Actually what you said is that i am cheating by firing them when i move. You were dead wrong. Dont play games.

No, he is right. I overlooked this by mistake but as soon as you declare that you are running your unit the entire unit runs. Not just the bits you want to run. As soon as you declare that your Lascannons, which are part of the blob squad and are therefore affected by all such declarations made regarding the unit, must also run. They can literally do nothing.

And please remind me again here just how "competitive" your local meta is. Is this the Meta which thinks that 20 scatbikes is list tailoring? 3 Droppods is list tailoring? Take it from someone whom has been laying a LOT longer than you, that is nothing. 20 Scatbikes? I dream of facing only 20 scatbikes. 3 Droppods? Pleasepleaseplease just give me one game where there are less than 5. Or if they dont bother with droppods its 2+ Stormravens in that strafing run formation. Or a Vindicator Linebreaker squadron. Or a fething PRIMARCH.

Your meta is casual. That is, in itself, not a bad thing. Hell, it is actually a really good thing and I am glad that you enjoy it. But coming here and telling us all that we are noobs and that you are right 'because' and then insulting us all when we disagree with you is NOT a good thing. Your blob works? Sweet, but give me two turns and you will see just how bad it is. It works because your local meta is casual, and no this is not a weak arguement. It is, by extent of the evidence that YOU yourself have presented to us, the logical conclusion.
Stop insulting and actually try to listen to the people here whom are trying to drill it into your thick skull that your 'Deathstar' unit, whilst effective in your local meta, is DOA in your average setting.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
What is the FW thread? I saw reference to Jancoran in some of the other threads and it...wasn't great.
I'm starting to feel bad about it but that's probably because I'm not engaging him directly anymore.

There was a "why are people weird about FW" thread, in which he was vehemently anti-forgeworld.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/667942.page

I read it all and now I hate you

 Jancoran wrote:

Spoiler:

Farseer Skyrunner - Spirit Stone of Anath'lan - 130

5 Jetbikes - 5 Scatter Lasers - 125
5 Jetbikes - 5 Scatter Lasers - 125
5 Jetbikes - 5 Scatter Lasers - 125

Crimson Hunter - 140

Wraithknight - 2 Heavy Wraithcannons - 295

Aspect Host Formation

5 Fire Dragons - Exarch - 120
Wave Serpent - TL Scatter Laser - 115

5 Fire Dragons - Exarch - 120
Wave Serpent - TL Scatter Laser - 115

5 Swooping Hawks - Exarch - 90

Not that it matters. But that's what I'm probably taking.

Quick note, that list is 30 points over (Scatterbikes are 27, not 25).

@OP When they start making as much money as Tau/Eldar/SM/Necrons do.

OMG, I had completely forgotten the FW reference, and now that there's a link, I'm with Aki on hating you guys for making me read that. >:

OTOH, it's amusing how parallel that thread is to this one. Also, I LOLd at the Stelek reference - comedy gold.

Akiasura wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
What is the FW thread? I saw reference to Jancoran in some of the other threads and it...wasn't great.
I'm starting to feel bad about it but that's probably because I'm not engaging him directly anymore.

There was a "why are people weird about FW" thread, in which he was vehemently anti-forgeworld.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/667942.page

I read it all and now I hate you

My duty is completed.
*bows and flies off into sunset*

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Also, I LOLd at the Stelek reference - comedy gold.

Stelek reference?

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

Akiasura wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
What is the FW thread? I saw reference to Jancoran in some of the other threads and it...wasn't great.
I'm starting to feel bad about it but that's probably because I'm not engaging him directly anymore.

There was a "why are people weird about FW" thread, in which he was vehemently anti-forgeworld.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/667942.page

I read it all and now I hate you

My duty is completed.
*bows and flies off into sunset*

God damn it, do you know how expensive skyfire is for CSM!?
YOU GET BACK HERE!
CREEEEEEED!

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
There is NO way that a list like that is going to have trouble with a Blobguard list. I'm calling you out as a liar right now for that.

What does this list have to do with that blob squad? I'm asked what I'll play. I answer. And...this? Wowa.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frozocrone wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

Spoiler:

Farseer Skyrunner - Spirit Stone of Anath'lan - 130

5 Jetbikes - 5 Scatter Lasers - 125
5 Jetbikes - 5 Scatter Lasers - 125
5 Jetbikes - 5 Scatter Lasers - 125

Crimson Hunter - 140

Wraithknight - 2 Heavy Wraithcannons - 295

Aspect Host Formation

5 Fire Dragons - Exarch - 120
Wave Serpent - TL Scatter Laser - 115

5 Fire Dragons - Exarch - 120
Wave Serpent - TL Scatter Laser - 115

5 Swooping Hawks - Exarch - 90

Not that it matters. But that's what I'm probably taking.

Quick note, that list is 30 points over (Scatterbikes are 27, not 25).

@OP When they start making as much money as Tau/Eldar/SM/Necrons do.

I dont have the book in front of me so I'm going off memory. But sure. I'll make sure its right.

 Frozocrone wrote:
@OP When they start making as much money as Tau/Eldar/SM/Necrons do.

If you build it, they will come.

Necrons are meh, sales are meh; Necrons get Decurion, sales go up.

Not that tricky.

Redux Chaos for HH / 30k, and sales will go up a bunch!

Does somebody else want to tell him how that list relates to the Blobguard one or will I have to be the one to do it? I hate quoting on my phone.

@Slayer-fan - for most of us, it's self-evident. I don't need you to kill yourself on the phone. The one person who needs to be told won't understand it, either willfully or purely out of ignorance.
____

 vipoid wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Also, I LOLd at the Stelek reference - comedy gold.

Stelek reference?

You can google "Stelek DakkaDakka" and read for yourself. There's plenty. Not sure if he still has his blog up.

Which link should I click on for that Google search?

Thats.... A lot of Stelek

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
@Slayer-fan - for most of us, it's self-evident. I don't need you to kill yourself on the phone. The one person who needs to be told won't understand it, either willfully or purely out of ignorance.
____

 vipoid wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Also, I LOLd at the Stelek reference - comedy gold.

Stelek reference?

You can google "Stelek DakkaDakka" and read for yourself. There's plenty. Not sure if he still has his blog up.

I'm not going down that rabbit hole again

I don't think that any faction should get the Tau treatment. A new book that's just a rehash of the old book, solving none of its problems, and adding in a bunch of formations? No thank you.

 master of ordinance wrote:


And please remind me again here just how "competitive" your local meta is. Is this the Meta which thinks that 20 scatbikes is list tailoring? 3 Droppods is list tailoring?

Thats not actually what I said. So... the TWO units of 20 Scatterbikes were an example used by someone else to show how many shots and wounds they could create on the blob to which I responded, paraphrasing, that I already agreed that it could and had been killed but that making Perfect Storm examples is as silly as saying IK's suck because: three Wraithguard units in Serpents. Also, as an aside, i would point out here that almost all the Deathstars this blob is being compared to have died. So... I mean... That's not ACTUALLY a very good argument for or against any unit other then the frequency maybe. Centurion Stars are hard to kill with Psyker help, but Tau seem to manage. So I am sure quite a few Centurion Stars have been blasted out of existence by them. does that make them bad because X could kill them? Not really.

3 Drop pods never came up other than insofar a someone else claimed that three drop pods full of Marines would blister my hide (though as it turns out, not so much). Same person claimed my opponent should claim some kind of tactical blame for scatter. Which I thought quite amusing.

So there's nothing to "remind" you of here.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheNewBlood wrote:
I don't think that any faction should get the Tau treatment. A new book that's just a rehash of the old book, solving none of its problems, and adding in a bunch of formations? No thank you.

To be fair, the Codex was not really in need of revamping in most places. I liked the 6E codex and was kind of shocked to learn they were doing another one. i gues they had to TECHNICALLY so there would TECHNICALLY be a 7E one and they could milk us dry again. But Tau were kind of in a unique position in that their transition to 7E went pretty smoothly.

I agree that I don't think any faction should get the tau treatment. If my Guard just get a re-hash of their current book with just some formations added I'll be mildly irritated. Just gonna have to wait and see I suppose. Guess I'll go work on my Eldar/Dark Eldar army in the meantime.

 Jancoran wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:


And please remind me again here just how "competitive" your local meta is. Is this the Meta which thinks that 20 scatbikes is list tailoring? 3 Droppods is list tailoring?

Thats not actually what I said. So... the TWO units of 20 Scatterbikes were an example used by someone else to show how many shots and wounds they could create on the blob to which I responded, paraphrasing, that I already agreed that it could and had been killed but that making Perfect Storm examples is as silly as saying IK's suck because: three Wraithguard units in Serpents. Also, as an aside, i would point out here that almost all the Deathstars this blob is being compared to have died. So... I mean... That's not ACTUALLY a very good argument for or against any unit other then the frequency maybe. Centurion Stars are hard to kill with Psyker help, but Tau seem to manage. So I am sure quite a few Centurion Stars have been blasted out of existence by them. does that make them bad because X could kill them? Not really.

3 Drop pods never came up other than insofar a someone else claimed that three drop pods full of Marines would blister my hide (though as it turns out, not so much). Same person claimed my opponent should claim some kind of tactical blame for scatter. Which I thought quite amusing.

So there's nothing to "remind" you of here.

The bolded part is where you have continued strawmanning, as that was never claimed.
It's always been 20 bikes over 2 turns could table this unit while taking very little return fire.

Your friend also made a mistake in deployment, as 3 units of drop pod marines should not be close enough where a multi charge is possible against all 3. They are allowed to re-position 6" from the base of the model (which is quite large) so its really difficult to picture them not being able to surround such a large blob.
It was a standard tactic for taking out the IG blob in 6th. It still works today, since the launcher makes it even better against hordes, and is a great option for a few pods.