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One thing I haven't seen much in the assault vs rapid fire discussion is which chapter you use.

For Raven guard it seems to me that the assault is a much better choice if you want to make use of the -1 to hit bonus. Two shots at 24" range is better than 1, and staying at that range ensures the -1 bonus against most units. 15" means units are able to move up and fire at 12" or less which negates the -1 to hit. I think the extra 9" of double shot range is a bigger point in the discussion than the ability to advance and fire, though the extra mobility does help.

It is also of note that for those 9" the assault gun is better against all targets compared to the Rapid fire variant.

Even with Ravenguard I believe it comes down to alpha strike, though from a different perspective. RG is the only Chapter that can bring dudes into Rapid Fire range T1, meaning they will hit harder than others at the cost of staying power, as they will be too close to keep outside 12" consistently.
For all others it is alpha strike at an increased price.

My ravenguard-playing friend uses a squad of each type of hellblasters (not including the awful heavies).

He doesn’t often infiltrate them. They don’t especially need it and you give up in survivability as much as you gain in alpha. It’s pricey in cps too, as you need to send a captain with them.

The unit that really gains from sfts is aggressors. He can set up a squad of 5 just within 18” and fire an average of 95 shots. It does a hell of a lot of damage.

 Trade_Prince wrote:
Even with Ravenguard I believe it comes down to alpha strike, though from a different perspective. RG is the only Chapter that can bring dudes into Rapid Fire range T1, meaning they will hit harder than others at the cost of staying power, as they will be too close to keep outside 12" consistently.
For all others it is alpha strike at an increased price.

I get that but depending on target there isn't that big of a difference in output for that risk. Mostly it would matter against T8 models as those models tend to have a lot of wounds, the Rapid fire against those targets averages 19 wounds, the Assault variant only 12, so it likely won't wipe out the model. (though for super heavies this is true for both varients). T7 you are looking at 24 wounds from rapid fire and 19 from assault, most T7 models don't have that many wounds. Now if invul saves come into play that can make some difference as a 4+ save drops the assault version to 9-10 wounds, vs 12 wounds. So for things like hive tyrants that is relavant, but at that point you are largely trading your rapid fire squad for the tyrant which is likely not the best trade.

I'll need to play around with both a bit more, but I can see value on the extra range at the slightly lower damage output as it might ensure you getting 2 turns of fire.

Numbers above assume captain + lieutenant buffs

So, the Astraeus is on pre-order and you can see its rules on the FW site (https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/PDF/Downloads/Astraeus-Super-heavy-Tank-Download-2017.pdf)

It’s going to cost you somewhere between 700 and 750 points, depending on loadout. That’s a very significant investment when compared to some of the IG superheavies that come in from under 400. But the Astaeus is a better vehicle than they are. I guess it’s worth mentioning that you can’t take a squadron of 3 in 2k points – if anyone had been planning to.

The Astraeus has a load of new weapons on it, few of which have been seen elsewhere. What look like twin lascannon sponsons are actually las rippers, and what look like the Redemptor’s macro plasma incinerator is instead a plasma eradicator. In both cases they are weaker than they seem, though not useless. On the whole I think the las rippers might be better, though their 24” range is quite a limitation. It’s probably not a huge problem that the plasma eradicators can overheat, as you’d probably always want to have a captain near a thing like this anyway, but I don’t think they do enough damage.

As you’d expect, the main gun is a beast. It has a very high rate of fire and does 3 damage, though its strength 8 and AP -2 aren’t all that amazing. The effect is a gun that’s good for firing at virtually any target, which is a nice thing to have on a vehicle that’s probably the centrepiece of your army. It’s particularly good at killing stuff that flies as it ignores their abilities that penalise its hit rolls – meaning Alaitoc Hemlocks won’t last long against it at all.

Defensively you’ve got a 2+ save, T8, 24 wounds and 5+ void shields. The 2+ saves actually mean the void shields are largely irrelevant, as they only come into effect against stuff with a -4 save mod or better, and that’s quite rare. They also don’t do anything in cc.

This means that the Astraeus is quite actually fairly vulnerable to enemy fire, on a points per wound basis. For around the cost of 4 predators you’re getting an awful lot fewer wounds – albeit with a better toughness, save and void shields. But those things aren’t too relevant if a shadowsword takes a pop at you.

Assaulting the thing ought to be difficult, as you need to subtract 3” from the charge distance. Forget about deep strike assaults. The Astraeus is free to then fall back, shoot and charge something else if it wants. In fact it’s actually quite dangerous, with a load of attacks at S9 and a proper CCW. Against gunlines it may be sensible to have the Astraeus charge enemy tanks to prevent them from firing at it.

On the whole I think it’s a decent tank, but not gamebreaking or essential. Go ahead and get one if you like the model – though as with all the big FW stuff you should first consult your financial advisor.

Mandragola wrote:
[...]Defensively you’ve got a 2+ save, T8, 24 wounds and 5+ void shields. The 2+ saves actually mean the void shields are largely irrelevant, as they only come into effect against stuff with a -4 save mod or better, and that’s quite rare. They also don’t do anything in cc.[...]

Void shields also work against Mortal wounds. So they're more useful than just against -4 AP wounds.

Spiky Norman wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
[...]Defensively you’ve got a 2+ save, T8, 24 wounds and 5+ void shields. The 2+ saves actually mean the void shields are largely irrelevant, as they only come into effect against stuff with a -4 save mod or better, and that’s quite rare. They also don’t do anything in cc.[...]

Void shields also work against Mortal wounds. So they're more useful than just against -4 AP wounds.

Yeah true. I meant to include that. I guess the breakdown was long enough already though.

In general my point was that they don't do all that much, and I think that's correct. Even when they do work, they only give a 5++, which means they fail 2/3 of the time. And marines get a stratagem to give a vehicle a 5++ against mortal wounds.

Continuing the tradition of Primaris releases being OK but not really.

Will we see a bit of a resurgence in Primaris forces with CA? The leaks look to be pretty legit now, which means a haircut for Agressors and Intercessors, and a big cut in Inceptor prices.

Yes and I think it changes things a lot.

The really serious change (that we know about) is clearly to Inceptors. Inceptors are the unit that probably benefits least from the ravenguard CTs - which are currently probably the best CTs going. So this could have an effect of balancing out the relative power of the different chapters - at least up to a point.

The intercessor and aggressor price cuts are both welcome too, if not so significant. I ran 15 intercessors and 5 aggressors in my list for the GT, so that would save my army 60 points - which is enough to buy some useful new toys.

I'm not aware of any rules changes though. This means that the weapon options for these various units will probably remain the same - heavy intercessors and hellblasters will still be obviously the worst choices, for example.

I'm looking forward to using more dakka inceptors with my crimson fists. I'm considering a squad of 5. My army has been lacking a unit that can deep strike and these guys would more than fit the bill.

I might also be adding a bit of Forgeworld stuff here and there. I expect my Xiphon's price will go up (it definitely should!) but it's interesting to see that Sicarans are getting cheaper. I've always wanted a Venator and it would be a great fit for the ranged AT slot, where Primaris can currently be a bit weak.

That said, with the price cuts, Heavy Intercessors cost the same as the regular ones now.
I think there's something to be said for that at least. You save a few points when going that route now and ignore Conscript armor.

Of course you're only getting 5 shots so.....

Plasma Inceptors are now pretty good looking to me. 6D3 plasma shots for 177pt (fingers crossed) buys them a seat at the top table as far as marine deepstrike options go...

It's true that heavy intercessors are cheaper, but so are intercessors with guns that don't suck. Unless there's a change in cost for the guns I can't see myself taking the heavies any time soon.

Plasma inceptors are a really tricky one to figure out for me. The problem is that, with an average of 4 shots each, they will explode a lot if overcharging - as in you can expect to lose two out of a squad of three.

So this means you need rerolls, and getting them isn't especially easy for a unit that deep strikes.

So overall I'm not sure if they are actually better than assault hellblasters. 175 buys you 10 shots, which is fewer and at a lower strength, but they are much easier to keep near a captain.

Ultramarine plasma inteptors using the reroll 1s stratagem are solid gold. Salamanders ones are a bit less insane.

Overall I think that plasma and dakka inceptors are extremely different units, performing different battlefield roles. Dakka inceptors in my crimson fist army will make a decent back field nuisance unit, good at hunting things like snipers, devastators etc. and clearing enemies of objectives. Plasma guys can instead be dropped in near a captain to unleash extreme firepower, killing tanks and heavy infantry.

Mandragola wrote:

Plasma inceptors are a really tricky one to figure out for me. The problem is that, with an average of 4 shots each, they will explode a lot if overcharging - as in you can expect to lose two out of a squad of three.

With the high number of shots they'll fry themselves pretty regularly even with re-rolls.

Mandragola wrote:
It's true that heavy intercessors are cheaper, but so are intercessors with guns that don't suck. Unless there's a change in cost for the guns I can't see myself taking the heavies any time soon.

Plasma inceptors are a really tricky one to figure out for me. The problem is that, with an average of 4 shots each, they will explode a lot if overcharging - as in you can expect to lose two out of a squad of three.

So this means you need rerolls, and getting them isn't especially easy for a unit that deep strikes.

So overall I'm not sure if they are actually better than assault hellblasters. 175 buys you 10 shots, which is fewer and at a lower strength, but they are much easier to keep near a captain.

Ultramarine plasma inteptors using the reroll 1s stratagem are solid gold. Salamanders ones are a bit less insane.

Overall I think that plasma and dakka inceptors are extremely different units, performing different battlefield roles. Dakka inceptors in my crimson fist army will make a decent back field nuisance unit, good at hunting things like snipers, devastators etc. and clearing enemies of objectives. Plasma guys can instead be dropped in near a captain to unleash extreme firepower, killing tanks and heavy infantry.

It makes me really hopeful for the future possible release of Primaris Captains with Grav Chutes or Inceptor Jetpacks.

The only Plasma Inceptors I see working are those using the UM Stratagem or those dropping with a Captain or CM from the non-Primaris roster. Given how fast Guilliman can be, it might be possible to land them in bis 12” re-roll 1s bubble.
If you just want a harassement unit like Reivers, you are better off bullying infantry units with the Bolters instead of risking Plasmas.

Assault Plasmas, Assault Intercessors, Plasma Inceptors, Primaris are capable of a pretty vicious alpha strike outside of the Ravenguard Stratagem.

Here is the question though. What lists are capable of accommodating Aggressors and Inceptors of any kind? My mostly-Primaris Guilliman list, while 76pts more expensive, was already pretty stuffed. I ran Guilliman, Tiggy, PrimLib, 2 Las Razors, 2 units of 5 Scouts with HB, 10 Assault Intercessors, total of 6 HB Tarantulas, Primaris Ancient, dakka Repulsor and 6 Assault Hellblasters. Now this whole list need to be rebuilt from ground up. So yes, how do we incorporate and optimize Gravis armour in Primaris lists?

Also, @Mandragola, How did the 15 Intercessors and 5 Aggressors perform?

 Trade_Prince wrote:
The only Plasma Inceptors I see working are those using the UM Stratagem or those dropping with a Captain or CM from the non-Primaris roster. Given how fast Guilliman can be, it might be possible to land them in bis 12” re-roll 1s bubble.
If you just want a harassement unit like Reivers, you are better off bullying infantry units with the Bolters instead of risking Plasmas.

Assault Plasmas, Assault Intercessors, Plasma Inceptors, Primaris are capable of a pretty vicious alpha strike outside of the Ravenguard Stratagem.

Here is the question though. What lists are capable of accommodating Aggressors and Inceptors of any kind? My mostly-Primaris Guilliman list, while 76pts more expensive, was already pretty stuffed. I ran Guilliman, Tiggy, PrimLib, 2 Las Razors, 2 units of 5 Scouts with HB, 10 Assault Intercessors, total of 6 HB Tarantulas, Primaris Ancient, dakka Repulsor and 6 Assault Hellblasters. Now this whole list need to be rebuilt from ground up. So yes, how do we incorporate and optimize Gravis armour in Primaris lists?

Also, @Mandragola, How did the 15 Intercessors and 5 Aggressors perform?

Lots of points available if you dropped girlyman. Jus' sayin'

Sure, but I like the win the occasional competitive game

I tried running Captain and even Calgar + Lieutenant and it is no replacement. The re-rolls to hit isn't as important. The re-rolls to wound is what makes him so powerful. Elite armies suffer from extreme dice due to the low amount of rolls you make. Guilliman gives Primaris armies precisely what they are lacking in order to succeed, reliability.

 Trade_Prince wrote:
Sure, but I like the win the occasional competitive game

I tried running Captain and even Calgar + Lieutenant and it is no replacement. The re-rolls to hit isn't as important. The re-rolls to wound is what makes him so powerful. Elite armies suffer from extreme dice due to the low amount of rolls you make. Guilliman gives Primaris armies precisely what they are lacking in order to succeed, reliability.

I agree, sort of - devoting 385 points to a single model ensures you have a low amount of rolls, but increases the efficacy of those you do have. That's true. But the amount of rolls you get with those 385 points spent elsewhere is pretty high, too.

I hate Girlyman because he's the crutch that simultaneously props up the force while encouraging static play and boring thinking.

Guilliman isn't even the topic right now. We are talking about how the new point will impact Primaris list composition.

 Trade_Prince wrote:
Guilliman isn't even the topic right now. We are talking about how the new point will impact Primaris list composition.

I'm sorry, but that's not true. In the past few posts we moved on to finding ways to take advantage of the points reductions and how one would, with a specific current list, find a way to work in units affected by the reductions. So, naturally, the subject became about how much you gain by trading him out by specifically identifying what he brings and including those particular units at their new price point that mitigate that loss the most.

Seems perfectly on topic to me, mate. New lists will come out of these price drops, and I think it's fair to examine how to shift old, effective lists to take advantage.

Lemondish wrote:

 Trade_Prince wrote:
Guilliman isn't even the topic right now. We are talking about how the new point will impact Primaris list composition.

I'm sorry, but that's not true. In the past few posts we moved on to finding ways to take advantage of the points reductions and how one would, with a specific current list, find a way to work in units affected by the reductions. So, naturally, the subject became about how much you gain by trading him out by specifically identifying what he brings and including those particular units at their new price point that mitigate that loss the most.

Seems perfectly on topic to me, mate. New lists will come out of these price drops, and I think it's fair to examine how to shift old, effective lists to take advantage.

A'ight, let me put it a bit more specific. My personal question that I wanted to discuss did not necessarily include Guilliman. Of course he is on topic. Guilliman is always on topic in every topic. I just wanted to chat about how the point adjustments change the way we field Primaris and what other units may now be good to supplement those

The changes are really nice I think. The all primaris force still lacks in dedicated anti tank beyond hellblasters with their rapid fire gun. I think the best gain Primaris forces got was the ability to ally in more supportive fire power like guard tanks or heavy weapon teams.

 Trade_Prince wrote:
Also, @Mandragola, How did the 15 Intercessors and 5 Aggressors perform?

The intercessors have always performed well. They are cheap enough to use as a screen, tough enough to require serious firepower to remove and dangerous enough to justify bringing. Something that's often ignored is that they are as good in cc as a lot of dedicated assault units while also having a decent gun and two wounds. They do kill things, and they benefit quite a bit from ignoring cover with my CTs because the things they fight are enemy troops - who hide in cover a lot. They are kind of exactly what I want in a troop unit.

The aggressors are much more of a mixed bag. I actually brought them expecting to see loads of hordes and in the end never came up against them, meaning the aggressors never really did their proper job.

What I found was that they are difficult to deploy correctly. They want to cross the board because they are short ranged, but they aren't very good at it. This meant that they tended to work much more as a defensive unit if people were trying to rush me, which they didn't always do.

There were certainly times when they did very good things. When they got to stand still and fire they tended to kill whatever they were pointed at, even including knocking a lot of wounds off vehicles just with sheer weight of fire. They were often able to split their fire between different units and hose away problems. But on the other hand they die pretty easily for their cost and they don't have a threatening reach, so they felt pretty useless in games against mechanised gunlines. I ended up using them essentially as a distraction in a game against a dark angel parking lot, for example - which worked overall. I won the game.

I'm going to experiment more with putting some in a repulsor. I think there's a decent chance this could be the thing they need to get across the board and start wrecking faces. Only problem is that it prevents them from using auspex scan, but I'm not forced to deploy them aboard.

Having played the aggressors a few times i find that they are really hard to position or they get out maneuvered enough that i never ever get the opportunity to do the double shots.

kinda makes me sad. otherwise they still do put out a lot of bolter shots even without it and they have clutched some punches.

Yeah, agreed. I think maybe it’s ok if you just accept that you’ll hardly ever get double shots. They still fire a hell of a lot.

No unit benefits more from sfts though. It’s kind of broken to set them up already in range of what they want to kill, knowing you’re going first.

I have yet to play agressors, but they seem like they would only really work for raven guard, use the CP to infiltrate them to turn 1 not move and fire at the opponents chaff.

That said with the points drop, I think inceptors are the better unit due to their mobility, deepstrike and higher strength and AP gun.

For imperial fists they certainly are the better unit ignoring cover with AP -1.

Breng77 wrote:
I have yet to play agressors, but they seem like they would only really work for raven guard, use the CP to infiltrate them to turn 1 not move and fire at the opponents chaff.

That said with the points drop, I think inceptors are the better unit due to their mobility, deepstrike and higher strength and AP gun.

For imperial fists they certainly are the better unit ignoring cover with AP -1.

This is, irritatingly, true.

For the price of 5 aggressors in a repulsor I can have more than twice that many inceptors deep striking to wherever they need to be. This is irritating because I've got two repulsors and some repulsors that I've painted up. Now I need to paint some inceptors and put a repulsor into semi-retirement. Or have someone else ride in it I guess.

Really? i wouldnt say its entirely true.

iv run them a few times now and generally they have pulled there weight knocking a few MEQs out and putting out a decent amount of overwatch without even needing to double tap.

sure you are not getting absolute maximum advantage out of it but its still a decent amount of shooting. with a decent enough cc punch.

im thinking however that this may be because i dont fight gunlines as often.

I think Aggressors have their place. Maybe just take 3 dudes with Bolters and do not be afraid of mobility. They benefit from running as well as from standing still. Keep the unit small and move them tactically. If there are more distractions or high profile units around, they may just perform well. Maybe even just move up a flank and bully isolated units. The Power Fists are there for a reason, after all