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No we saying in tactis we try to give the best advice . In the end none is forced to obey nothing. Play what you like sure.

But we try here to gather healthy advice. And suggesting a unit is good when in any cas worse than any other optio is bad why?? Before codex i strongly agreed theyr 8" move gave them an optio n to be better if you wanted to rush the table. In a afast moving army. Now they are not. Cause they doing worse what all other can do.

If they get buffed by default like inf. That are not generally good vs other armies but got a usage. Sure we can talk about usage. Atm Rustalkers are zero

If you have pure Skitari army from 7th, and you don't have fulgurites or more dragoons , russttstalkers will do fine. They don't synergize with army super well, don't have fancy special rules that would give them niche, but are priced reasonably.

I'm not saying that you should play them, but you can without gimping yourself. Yes, GW tok wrong route with them, not buffing them but instead nerfing infiltrators.

But don't put the in one bag with servitors and kataphrons who have their prices taken out of ass so badly than even specially dedicated stratagems and dogmas didn't helped them.

Its not logical to give advice or talk in a forums anout units you got. As i said we try here to give healthy advice. None is the emperor himself. If tou dont have models then play what you got.

Tactics and this generall thrat we need to pinpoint the usage. Usage not fluff not model looks nor how we paimt oir armies or what to buy next. We can talk all you like but the fact remains rustalkers and inflitrators need to be worked. Infiltrators got a usage already talked. Rustalers yes tney benefit from +1 hit and skitarii buf in generall yoi can drop the with an hq mask for rerolls but they suck badly. Badly. Elite killing how? Not fearless no deep strike no run charge no furious charge something. You wont reach melee most likely with the tney will die from lasguns or equal they dont have fnp or exttra attacks to deal with serious important chars. They just cant deliver. 100 points might not be extremely bad but if the unit does not do what its made for?

Even if you got sparemodels make them 10 infltrators. With wrath or skitarii buff or any plan focused on them from dragoons and hq teaming till just obj camping or screen transports will deliver even if not optimal

Don't misunderstand me. I'm not defending Ruststalkers. I'm certainly not suggesting people starting AdMech go out and buy any.

I'm just saying that this thread should not be overrun with people just repeating the mantra of "play Cawl, Kastelans, Onagers and Dragoons or don't even bother unpacking your models" over and over and over and over.

We have talked about all and everything. I wrote 2 strats for agripinna and Ryza. For kataprhons and troops. All players in here contribute as mucha s possible.
7 will say rustalkers suck 2 will say they got usage 1 will not agree with none. Conclusions are to be made in the table. None can factor their playstyle local meta
Experience in forums. There are info atm in here for weeks of reading and playing. All units most tactics. Maybe not so much in warlord traits or relics but still.

You got enough info and go try. If you can win with rystlakers if they suit you then who cares what 20 others say. Still cant advice none to take them. Even if you got the model make them inflitrators or be patient and lets see faq and errata. Whatever the case i dont believe anyoneia here reading tons of informations just to hear gw talking about the best balanced edition and all units are usable. Ok unless you are gw representative and even so imdont agree rustalkers suck. Thats about it.

 Silentz wrote:
Don't misunderstand me. I'm not defending Ruststalkers. I'm certainly not suggesting people starting AdMech go out and buy any.

I'm just saying that this thread should not be overrun with people just repeating the mantra of "play Cawl, Kastelans, Onagers and Dragoons or don't even bother unpacking your models" over and over and over and over.

Whilst I agree with your sentiment, the problem is that the "play Cawl, Kastelans etc....." advice, is actually the best advice - and I don't play AdMech, but was thinking about it. I might still do - it all depends on the FAQ/Errata.

Still not convinced cawl/mars is the most competitive. On paper sure it looks like it but until we get a few months with the codex I think it's not responsible to say any thing is the best. Hell meta changes and changes what the best is all the time.

Even with months of tournament testing all that will tell you is if cawl/mars works at all or is competitive. It will say nothing about combinations that are not tested. And if cawl or go home is the advice tossed around like gospel there may be a better option that goes by the wayside untested. I mean it's probably the best but we should keep an open mind that just because something isn't the chapter approved carbon copy of the list ex machina it shouldn't be dismissed out of hand

MarkM wrote:

 Silentz wrote:
Don't misunderstand me. I'm not defending Ruststalkers. I'm certainly not suggesting people starting AdMech go out and buy any.

I'm just saying that this thread should not be overrun with people just repeating the mantra of "play Cawl, Kastelans, Onagers and Dragoons or don't even bother unpacking your models" over and over and over and over.

Whilst I agree with your sentiment, the problem is that the "play Cawl, Kastelans etc....." advice, is actually the best advice - and I don't play AdMech, but was thinking about it. I might still do - it all depends on the FAQ/Errata.

Yea, that is the sad truth. That really is the best advice for competitive AdMech. Everything else is going to be semi-competitive or worse.

Next big shake-up I hope is our FAQ, which should be soon. After that, most of our discussion will likely revolve around how we cope with new releases instead of hashing out our own Codex. I think we got that covered rather well.

I think we are going to struggle against Guard, who look like they will out-artillery us. That is a major worry, because that is all we really have. We might wind up splashing them in to augment, which is a disappointment because right now aside from one or two builds, our army seems reliant on other factions to really have a competitive option. GW really dropped the ball on our 'Dex.

The thing with Ruststalkers is that first round combat 7th vs 8th is the same, arguably better in 8th because the target gets no saves. But in 7th subsequent combat rounds every attack was resolved at AP2, so you didn't need the 6s. What we have in 8th is an opening gambit where you need your 6s to do any real damage and then subsequent rounds are no better. They were always a glass cannon, sure they had FNP but no invulnerable save so durability wise they're more or less the same when mortal wounds arent in the mix. But losing that second round onward penetration bonus is what makes them ineffective now. They also had grenades...which they now dont.

I would much rather use Ruststalkers but i'll only be including them to fill points.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

MarkM wrote:

 Silentz wrote:
Don't misunderstand me. I'm not defending Ruststalkers. I'm certainly not suggesting people starting AdMech go out and buy any.

I'm just saying that this thread should not be overrun with people just repeating the mantra of "play Cawl, Kastelans, Onagers and Dragoons or don't even bother unpacking your models" over and over and over and over.

Whilst I agree with your sentiment, the problem is that the "play Cawl, Kastelans etc....." advice, is actually the best advice - and I don't play AdMech, but was thinking about it. I might still do - it all depends on the FAQ/Errata.

Yea, that is the sad truth. That really is the best advice for competitive AdMech. Everything else is going to be semi-competitive or worse.

Next big shake-up I hope is our FAQ, which should be soon. After that, most of our discussion will likely revolve around how we cope with new releases instead of hashing out our own Codex. I think we got that covered rather well.

I think we are going to struggle against Guard, who look like they will out-artillery us. That is a major worry, because that is all we really have. We might wind up splashing them in to augment, which is a disappointment because right now aside from one or two builds, our army seems reliant on other factions to really have a competitive option. GW really dropped the ball on our 'Dex.

Unfortunately, currently all true.

And it seems that GW have taken the current top army, and just made it plain better. I hope I am wrong and surprised with what they do to IG, but from what we've seen I doubt it.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:


Next big shake-up I hope is our FAQ, which should be soon. After that, most of our discussion will likely revolve around how we cope with new releases instead of hashing out our own Codex. I think we got that covered rather well.

Mmmm... not hopeful for major changes here.


My hopes for the FAQ:
- Clarifying when/how often Litany of the Electromancer triggers
- Fixing the wording of a couple of stratagems
- Torsion Cannon points drop
- Ruststalkers to 15-17 pts
- Power fist points drop to match marines
- Targeting Relay (?) stratagem applies to Kataphron breachers as well as destroyers

My fears/expectations for the FAQ:
- Heavy Arc Rifles errata'd back up to 18
- No other changes

I don't expect much from the FAQ. I just want foc yesterday and am hoping it fills in the missing link in the codex.

But this is all wishful thinking

I don't think Ruststalkers are trash (but then I don't think a 52 point Servitor squad with 2 HBs is "trash") but its fair to say there are better options (not sure on the servitors actually - they compare alright with troops, but the thing is there is a troops tax and not an elite tax).

Fulgurites do a lot more damage. Against MEQ its nearly twice as much on the charge. On the down side you are a one wound 5++/5+++ (until you wipe a unit). This is typically less protection than two wounds and almost certainly a 3+ save on the way in.

In this circumstance 5 bolter shots will kill a Fulgurite while you need 13.5 to kill a Ruststalker. Obviously stalkers do worse against things like autocannons and overcharged plasma (but if they are shooting this at your stalkers they are not shooting your dakkabots or dragoons).

The problem is in a game all about alpha striking survivability tends to be overpriced. If you are using Fulgurites you pretty much have to deep strike or infiltrate them in. You can be more flexible with Stalkers - although they are still not great. They would be incredible at 10-12 points.

gendoikari87 wrote:
Still not convinced cawl/mars is the most competitive. On paper sure it looks like it but until we get a few months with the codex I think it's not responsible to say any thing is the best. Hell meta changes and changes what the best is all the time.

Even with months of tournament testing all that will tell you is if cawl/mars works at all or is competitive. It will say nothing about combinations that are not tested. And if cawl or go home is the advice tossed around like gospel there may be a better option that goes by the wayside untested. I mean it's probably the best but we should keep an open mind that just because something isn't the chapter approved carbon copy of the list ex machina it shouldn't be dismissed out of hand

So getting two canticles and rerolls on all shooting with a super durable model doesn't scream most competitive to you? Do you want to be taken seriously in this thread?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:
Still not convinced cawl/mars is the most competitive. On paper sure it looks like it but until we get a few months with the codex I think it's not responsible to say any thing is the best. Hell meta changes and changes what the best is all the time.

Even with months of tournament testing all that will tell you is if cawl/mars works at all or is competitive. It will say nothing about combinations that are not tested. And if cawl or go home is the advice tossed around like gospel there may be a better option that goes by the wayside untested. I mean it's probably the best but we should keep an open mind that just because something isn't the chapter approved carbon copy of the list ex machina it shouldn't be dismissed out of hand

So getting two canticles and rerolls on all shooting with a super durable model doesn't scream most competitive to you? Do you want to be taken seriously in this thread?

On top of Wrath of Mars, which is by far one of the nastiest Strategems out there right now. Not many armies can - with one unit's round of shooting - kill Magnus.

Unless the FAQ/Errata or future releases shake things up, Mars is still top dog.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:
Still not convinced cawl/mars is the most competitive. On paper sure it looks like it but until we get a few months with the codex I think it's not responsible to say any thing is the best. Hell meta changes and changes what the best is all the time.

Even with months of tournament testing all that will tell you is if cawl/mars works at all or is competitive. It will say nothing about combinations that are not tested. And if cawl or go home is the advice tossed around like gospel there may be a better option that goes by the wayside untested. I mean it's probably the best but we should keep an open mind that just because something isn't the chapter approved carbon copy of the list ex machina it shouldn't be dismissed out of hand

So getting two canticles and rerolls on all shooting with a super durable model doesn't scream most competitive to you? Do you want to be taken seriously in this thread?

you either entirely skipped over the point or willfully ignored it. Either way not responding to this straw man

gendoikari87 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:
Still not convinced cawl/mars is the most competitive. On paper sure it looks like it but until we get a few months with the codex I think it's not responsible to say any thing is the best. Hell meta changes and changes what the best is all the time.

Even with months of tournament testing all that will tell you is if cawl/mars works at all or is competitive. It will say nothing about combinations that are not tested. And if cawl or go home is the advice tossed around like gospel there may be a better option that goes by the wayside untested. I mean it's probably the best but we should keep an open mind that just because something isn't the chapter approved carbon copy of the list ex machina it shouldn't be dismissed out of hand

So getting two canticles and rerolls on all shooting with a super durable model doesn't scream most competitive to you? Do you want to be taken seriously in this thread?

you either entirely skipped over the point or willfully ignored it. Either way not responding to this straw man

That isn't a strawman, it is a direct refutation of your claim that Cawl/Mars is not the most competitive. He makes the case that it is.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:
Still not convinced cawl/mars is the most competitive. On paper sure it looks like it but until we get a few months with the codex I think it's not responsible to say any thing is the best. Hell meta changes and changes what the best is all the time.

Even with months of tournament testing all that will tell you is if cawl/mars works at all or is competitive. It will say nothing about combinations that are not tested. And if cawl or go home is the advice tossed around like gospel there may be a better option that goes by the wayside untested. I mean it's probably the best but we should keep an open mind that just because something isn't the chapter approved carbon copy of the list ex machina it shouldn't be dismissed out of hand

So getting two canticles and rerolls on all shooting with a super durable model doesn't scream most competitive to you? Do you want to be taken seriously in this thread?

you either entirely skipped over the point or willfully ignored it. Either way not responding to this straw man

That isn't a strawman, it is a direct refutation of your claim that Cawl/Mars is not the most competitive. He makes the case that it is.

except at no point did I say that. You need to work on your reading comprehension relevant part bolded


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Maybe if you guys want to be taken seriously you should read people's whole posts not just the first sentence before you start flaming.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/740860.page#9624941


What you believe the faq should change for ad mech

gendoikari87 wrote:
Still not convinced cawl/mars is the most competitive. On paper sure it looks like it but until we get a few months with the codex I think it's not responsible to say any thing is the best. Hell meta changes and changes what the best is all the time.

I feel the same way. You are gambling on the alpha strike and the enemy being within 36". In a super competitive environment (like Nova, Adepticon, las Vegas Open) you'll probably only get to shoot with them maybe 1 turn.

gendoikari87 wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:
Still not convinced cawl/mars is the most competitive. On paper sure it looks like it but until we get a few months with the codex I think it's not responsible to say any thing is the best. Hell meta changes and changes what the best is all the time.

Even with months of tournament testing all that will tell you is if cawl/mars works at all or is competitive. It will say nothing about combinations that are not tested. And if cawl or go home is the advice tossed around like gospel there may be a better option that goes by the wayside untested. I mean it's probably the best but we should keep an open mind that just because something isn't the chapter approved carbon copy of the list ex machina it shouldn't be dismissed out of hand

So getting two canticles and rerolls on all shooting with a super durable model doesn't scream most competitive to you? Do you want to be taken seriously in this thread?

you either entirely skipped over the point or willfully ignored it. Either way not responding to this straw man

That isn't a strawman, it is a direct refutation of your claim that Cawl/Mars is not the most competitive. He makes the case that it is.

except at no point did I say that. You need to work on your reading comprehension relevant part bolded


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Maybe if you guys want to be taken seriously you should read people's whole posts not just the first sentence before you start flaming.

...bro. You absolutely said "Still not convinced cawl/mars is the most competitive." BOLDED, just in case you forgot what you wrote. He refuted that claim.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 D6Damager wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:
Still not convinced cawl/mars is the most competitive. On paper sure it looks like it but until we get a few months with the codex I think it's not responsible to say any thing is the best. Hell meta changes and changes what the best is all the time.

I feel the same way. You are gambling on the alpha strike and the enemy being within 36". In a super competitive environment (like Nova, Adepticon, las Vegas Open) you'll probably only get to shoot with them maybe 1 turn.

As someone who plays in a super-competitive environment, this isn't the case. I have had plenty of rounds of shooting pre-Codex. Adding Wrath only makes them better. Adding a second Canticles too. And being able to actually shoot in Protector on T1 via BO is amazing, since that was usually the biggest handicap was waiting an entire turn to get in your good shooting.

It isn't an alpha strike at all - it is a load of solid artillery. Much like IG, really. We screen our guns and blast the enemy.

 D6Damager wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:
Still not convinced cawl/mars is the most competitive. On paper sure it looks like it but until we get a few months with the codex I think it's not responsible to say any thing is the best. Hell meta changes and changes what the best is all the time.

I feel the same way. You are gambling on the alpha strike and the enemy being within 36". In a super competitive environment (like Nova, Adepticon, las Vegas Open) you'll probably only get to shoot with them maybe 1 turn.

dont get me wrong I'm not convinced it's not either. Just saying a little reservation and caution goes a long way. Dogmatic "x is best" is the enemy of innovation


Automatically Appended Next Post:

...bro. You absolutely said "Still not convinced cawl/mars is the most competitive." BOLDED, just in case you forgot what you wrote. He refuted that claim.

saying you aren't convinced it is and saying it's not are entirely different things. ThAts why I suggested you brush up on reading comprehension. It will help I promise.

Tyel wrote:

The problem is in a game all about alpha striking survivability tends to be overpriced.

Quoted for truth.

There are so many examples of this it's insane. Custodes for example. A Custodian guard with sword and shield has T5, 3W, 2+, 3++ and costs 54 points. Super tough. But that model's ranged output is a 12" Pistol 2 S4 AP0 D1. A bolter. With a shorter range. They're good in combat but getting them there is either a long jog across the table, or a further 400 points for a land raider?!

What would you choose, two custodes, or a twin lascannon razorback?

I feel like durability is way overpriced and mobility tends to be undervalued.

Personally I'd go twin assault cannon razor but that's me xp

text removed.

Reds8n

It's not semantics it's called nuance, subtlety. I get inyour world everything is binary. Good, bad. Yes no. But that's not how things work. Let me introduce you to the concept of maybe. There is often not a best anything in anything. Quantifying how an army will fare is only part of a huge equation you can't ever fully calculate and if you could there's no point putting models on the table in the first place.

Sometimes the correct answer is: undefined. That's perfectly fine. I get this is a new concept for you.

gendoikari87 wrote:
It's not semantics it's called nuance, subtlety. I get inyour world everything is binary. Good, bad. Yes no. But that's not how things work. Let me introduce you to the concept of maybe. There is often not a best anything in anything. Quantifying how an army will fare is only part of a huge equation you can't ever fully calculate and if you could there's no point putting models on the table in the first place.

Sometimes the correct answer is: undefined. That's perfectly fine. I get this is a new concept for you.

This is not acceptable to the Omnissiah.

There is 1. And there is 0. There is nothing in between!

Everything else is heresy!

lol except the concept of 1 and 0 arises from quantum states of semi conductors being sacred in the eye of them omnissiah. That's a quantum state which means quantum uncertainty to the omnissiah is sacred. Thus both deductive and inductive logic are both sacred rationales

Does make me sad how little thought and care went into writing our dex compared to whats being released about the Astra dex.

Sad beep boop

 Silentz wrote:
So what we're agreeing is that this "tactics" thread is not actually about "how to use the units you have in a tactically sound way", it's just about buying the best units. Yes?

This thread is for advice and tactics, which usually go hand in hand. Why would you recommend someone a sub par unit to use?

Anyway back to tactics: infoslave skull. Seems good but it's 2cp thoughts?