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Thats what triggers the rule , then we are told that the player choses what order to resovle them in. You could read that to mean they are now split and happening in a squence , or its still effectivly happening at the same time you just pick the order.

Sequencing only triggers on things that "are to happen" at the same time. As in, mandated to happen at the same time. Playing the strategem is something that could be done but isn't mandated. It cannot trigger a sequencing exception.

It would be more accurate to say they are to be worked out at the same time. Thats my understanding of the word resolved.

And we have permission to now work them out in the order we want. Now is that picking an action one at a time like the phases work, or is it pick the whole order straight away ?

Stratagem work as a trigger that the player uses to interupt the game, as long as its requirements are met.

Here is a question
i have 4 units to "deestrike" i also have the abilty to use a stratagem "at the end of the movement phase heal d3 wounds"
How do i work this out? Am i forced to use my stratagem just incase i am shot as i come in , and if im not shot i lose those command points. So i resovle the order they will happen all at once.
Or do i work out eacb one in an order i pick one at a time so if i get shot i can chose the next action to be my stratagem,or i can chose to only deploy 3 units , and we roll off so we again get the choose to react depending on what happens


I dont think the rules give us enough infomation to tell. It dosnt say we have to declare all the deepstrike units are coming in, we always have the choice to bring them in. I am not mandated to do anything.

squencing just lets us know that when things are to be resovled at the same time the player whose turn it is choose the order. Mybe thats so we can react to diffrent situtations, like a unit being destroyed as it arrives so we can still chose another unit to come in, that we mite have been holding back .

I think its just to vague to know for sure but i am more in favour of choice than being forced to work out what could be any number of actions that mite happen, and to avoid a situtation where i have declared i will use a stratagem only for that to be illegal because the unit is destroyed by the time i get to that action

Just treat it as a mini phase and it all works fine. All this half-declaring a Strat and resolving it later via beyond tenuous use of Sequencing is ridiculous to me. It does not appear to be what Sequencing is intended to handle.

Do you mean if its a mini phase you can use a during startagem

 techsoldaten wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Spoiler:

 techsoldaten wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Moving after reinforcements arrive is actually against the rules. The BRB specifically prohibits this.

Do you try to argue this way with people in real life?

Can you quote the rulebook and give a page number please?

Page 177, in the right column, under 'Reinforcements':

"Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive."

OK.

Now where does it say I can't move ANOTHER UNIT after reinforcing?

It doesn't need to. p. 177, under Reinforcements:

"Typically, this happens at the end of the Movement phase, but it can also happen during other phases."

The Movement phase is spelled out on p. 177 as a series of actions: Moving, Minimum Move, Enemy Models, Falling Back, and Advancing. Once these actions are complete, that's when reinforcements arrive - it's the end of the Movement phase.

So additional movement is not possible, because it specifically happens before reinforcements arrive. The rules say that.

What the rules don't say is, once reinforcements arrive, the player is now in the Psychic phase. That rule, or something like it, would exclude Stratagems that must be used during the Movement phase from being applied.

But Stratagems say when Stratagems can be applied. And GW has consistently enforced the simplest interpretation in FAQs.

Unless there is some rule you can point to that says after reinforcements arrive the player is now immediately in the Psychic phase, then the player is still in the Movement phase. I have provided plenty of examples in this thread of other things happening during the Movement phase after reinforcements arrive.

So, point to a rule or cease this silliness.

What the rules do say thougjh, is "their entire Movement phase it used in deploying on the battlefield" (just arfter the part you are quoting). It hasn't arrived until it's used its entire movement phase and is finally deployed. If it's used the engire movement phase fo rthat, then it's used the entire movement phase during which time you would play the stratagem.

The complete sentence, with context, is:

"Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or advance further during the turn they arrive - their entire Movement phase is used in deploying to the battlefield - but they can otherwise act normally (shoot, charge, etc.) ."

Which means:

- the unit cannot move further during the turn they arrive

- the unit cannot advance further during the turn they arrive

- the unit can shoot the turn they arrive

- the unit can charge the turn they arrive

- the unit can etc the turn they arrive

- and NOTHING else

The part about "their entire Movement phase is used in deploying to the battlefield" explains why they can't move further, and nothing else.

You are incorrect, as it affects things that you do to try to affect the unit. It takes it entire movement phase to arrive; it's not there for purposes of stratagems. It's not there for the "during the turn" part, so isn't there to play a stratagem on. You are trying to play a stratgem on a unit before it's there. By the time it's there for you to say you're playing a stratagem on it, unless you have a trigger like Auspex it's too late - you would already be sequencing if there's more than one thing to resolve end of turn. If you're already sequencing you don't get to try to add something to the sequence after you've started.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Zarroc1733 wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Zarroc1733 wrote:
I just showed you where in the rules it says you cannot move after reinforcing.

No, you haven't. You've quoted the BRB that explains why the units that reinforce can't move after reinforcing.

Now can you show anything from the BRB or another source to explain why units that haven't yet moved and did not just arrive by reinforcements cannot move after reinforcements arrive?

Because the rules say you must do all movement at the start of the phase.

Start your Movement phase by picking one of your units and moving each model in that unit until you’ve moved all the models you want to. You can then pick another unit to move, until you have moved as many of your units as you wish

I guess you don't realize that only the first unit moves at the start of the phase, and ones you select after that are after the start of the phase. It only states picking a first unit for movement. "Then" you move other units; "then" in this case is something taking place after the first move. If it's after the first move it's after the start of the phase. If they were all at the start of the phase, you would have to declare every unit that you're going to move, and your opponent would have to declare every single stratagem he's trying to play on them at that time too in order for all of those to be sequenced. As there's nothing in the book about having to declare all your movement and having the opponent declare all stratagems that he wants happening at the time they're all moving, then obviously not all units move at the start of the phase.

ian wrote:
Do you mean if its a mini phase you can use a during startagem

No. I just mean treat it as a sub-Phase of the Movement Phase. Avoids some of the issues created by attempting to apply sequencing.

I could see a sub phase working

Doctor tom

Once the sequence has started do you declare it all at once or is it one after the other ? Otherwise you can run into problems with some stratagem as described above

Unless there's a specific trigger (Auspex) I think you'd have to declare at once so that you have everything there that would need to be included in the sequencing. I don't see getting halfway though the items you're sequencing and then having someone go "wait a minute, I'm adding this").

When you're adding stratagems I would say you have to declare stratagems on units that are already there, not units that will be appearing after you declare - how can you declare you're affecting something that hasn't shown up yet?

Trouble is that means you could be in a situation where you have declared a stratagem, heal d3 wounds on a hq and that model not being there by the time you get there in the sequencing whislt rare it is a possibilty. Ie forwarned kills unit that causes mw to nearby hq


Playing it as an order you chose pick one at a time does eliminate that possibilty.

It will be intressing to see how gw decides to rule on it

To me, "End" is clearly a loose 'end', as "in a rattlesnake has a rattle at the end of its tail" or "those two get together at the end of the series" as opposed to an abrupt final point, because too many other actions can occur after actions that only occur at the "end of the phase". The movement phase ends when the psychic phase starts, in the same way a football match ends when the final whistle is blown - but what happened in the middle, towards the end, and at the end of the game is a more nebulous concept that could stretch from the final few seconds to the last ten minutes or even maybe the last quarter.

The pyschic phase starts when you nominate a psyker, so until you do that we're in a movement phase that isn't over yet.

After reinforcements have arrived, and resultant actions that come after those have been completed - it's still the movement phase.

You can end a speech by tying things back to the initial premise you set out at the beginning, and then still summarise your points and come to a conclusion at the end. And then acknowledge others who contributed. Then people clap. Once that's all done you might open the floor to questions. After that's all done, you all head out for drinks at the networking event that was planned for after the talks.

Unless you've activated a psychic power, it's not the end of the movement phase. You can't move other units after bringing in reinforcements, because movement of units on the board is a series of events that is triggered by the start of the phase. If you stop doing that, there isn't anything there to suggest that you can re-trigger it, you can perform stratagems and activate abilities to that occur whilst you're moving a unit, but once that is all done - it's done. You need another movement phase to restart the process (baring some special rule - such as disembarking from a reinforcing vehicle).

At this point, there is nothing else you can do other than trigger abilities that happen at the end of the phase - other than any during the phase abilities (I'm sure no one would argue that you can't use CoF without having another unit to move). So you can now trigger end of phase activities.

But it's still the movement phase, because you've not started the psychic phase. Even if the end of the movement phase was a separate subphase, you'd be able to use actions that could take place during the movement phase.

The wording for most deepstrike is "at the end of your movement phase" rather than "you may end your movement phase". It's after a bunch of stuff, but before a bunch of other different stuff, rather than the action that causes the transition. Whilst that first selection of a model to move uses language similar to the latter case - "start your movement phase by..."

At the end of your movement phase - is a noun covering a period of time
end your movement phase - a verb describing an action

at the beginning/start of your movement phase - noun covering a period of time
start your movement phase - verb describing an action.

Tastyfish wrote:
To me, "End" is clearly a loose 'end', as "in a rattlesnake has a rattle at the end of its tail" or "those two get together at the end of the series" as opposed to an abrupt final point, because too many other actions can occur after actions that only occur at the "end of the phase". The movement phase ends when the psychic phase starts, in the same way a football match ends when the final whistle is blown - but what happened in the middle, towards the end, and at the end of the game is a more nebulous concept that could stretch from the final few seconds to the last ten minutes or even maybe the last quarter.

The pyschic phase starts when you nominate a psyker, so until you do that we're in a movement phase that isn't over yet.

After reinforcements have arrived, and resultant actions that come after those have been completed - it's still the movement phase.

You can end a speech by tying things back to the initial premise you set out at the beginning, and then still summarise your points and come to a conclusion at the end. And then acknowledge others who contributed. Then people clap. Once that's all done you might open the floor to questions. After that's all done, you all head out for drinks at the networking event that was planned for after the talks.

Unless you've activated a psychic power, it's not the end of the movement phase. You can't move other units after bringing in reinforcements, because movement of units on the board is a series of events that is triggered by the start of the phase. If you stop doing that, there isn't anything there to suggest that you can re-trigger it, you can perform stratagems and activate abilities to that occur whilst you're moving a unit, but once that is all done - it's done. You need another movement phase to restart the process (baring some special rule - such as disembarking from a reinforcing vehicle).

At this point, there is nothing else you can do other than trigger abilities that happen at the end of the phase - other than any during the phase abilities (I'm sure no one would argue that you can't use CoF without having another unit to move). So you can now trigger end of phase activities.

But it's still the movement phase, because you've not started the psychic phase. Even if the end of the movement phase was a separate subphase, you'd be able to use actions that could take place during the movement phase.

The wording for most deepstrike is "at the end of your movement phase" rather than "you may end your movement phase". It's after a bunch of stuff, but before a bunch of other different stuff, rather than the action that causes the transition.

This is a great post!

But still at the end of could just as easily mean after the movement phase , ive posted a link to an english leasson on this.

Also if like you say its not the next thing until you start the next part then i refer you to the examples of "At the end of " which means the rules do not consider it part of , ie seqencing rules and stratagem limit

Its needs an faq there is no single way that cannot be argued either way

ian wrote:
But still at the end of could just as easily mean after the movement phase , ive posted a link to an english leasson on this.

Also if like you say its not the next thing until you start the next part then i refer you to the examples of "At the end of " which means the rules do not consider it part of , ie seqencing rules and stratagem limit

Its needs an faq there is no single way that cannot be argued either way

I disagree here, though I think an FAQ could be useful - you could point to two different uses of end, but the fact that end could mean some akin to "after" doesn't stop it referring to the looser "end" as in the latter part of something.
However the looser definition includes the finite end as a time point, and that usage doesn't work with a whole bunch of other rules. End can mean both the latter part and the point where it stops (that being part of the end) - so assuming a power can only be used at the end, it'd be true to say that you can use it either towards the end of the phase or at the ultimate end. Declaring a deepstrike could be the last thing you do, but also as the rules state in several clear instances, it might not be.

It's definitely happening at the end, might be the last thing you do, but doesn't have to be.

"At the end of 'X'" is not a natural way of phrasing something that is a discrete boundary. That would be "when this 'ends'" or "'end this by" - the verb version of end, not the noun.

http://www.englishlessonsbrighton.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/at-the-end-in-the-end.jpg


Consider:

We ate at the dinner table. but We ate in the dining room.

At in all these examples refers to a specific time or location; in refers to being inside a general area. At the end is used to point to the end as a specific point in time, whilst in the end is used, more idiomatically, to talk about a general “end” zone: the summary or conclusion.

There is also a diagram on the website in relation to a film

It can be viewed either way .

But if your view is that the next phase or turn ends by the next one step happening
ie the movement phase ends by the physic phase happening
Then a players turn must end by the next one starting
Then the battle round ends by the first player starting there turn
Its like a loop with things interupting

We can look at the sequencing rules we see that "at the end of the battle round" is not a players turn so that must mean when they use that phrase it is not considered to be in what it is refering too.

That is a rough summary , but i dont think it can be called one way without problems with rules intractions at some level,

I'm missing something here, your attached image shows that "the end" is a nebulous concept that depends on what is ending and that over the course of one sentence multiple things will end. The direct translation here would be "he deepstruck his troops at the end of his movement phase then triggered a stratagem, we debated it and in the end decided it was complicated".

"at" here is referring to nested sets is it not? You can eat in the dining room and at the table, but not that the table without being in the dining room - is this not the same as activating an ability at the end of the phase, whilst also being able to activate 'dining room' level powers?

Similarly, just because one system exists within a sequence (the phases within a player turn) doesn't mean the same rules apply after the sequence is complete. Psychic phase following movement phase is not the same as Player B's turn following Player A if we've got specific cases of things operating in the gaps there. It's a case of specific over general.

Far as rules issues, aside from CoF on deepstriking units, it seems that counting a each phase of a player's turn as lasting until the next phase causes less issues than inserting non-phase instances between each one.

At the end of can mean 2 things

A point during the end
The point directly after the end

This means that the rule can be read diffrent ways and hence there can be no clear ruling

You are only ever given permission to pick a unit so the only way you can move from one point to another in the game is to pick a unit , so the only way to move from one players turn to the next is by picking a unit to move.

If we are using the logic that a phase ends by the next one begining we have to apply that across the board. (Think of the battle round as a counter rather than a step we have to perform)

So looking at the examples would be a valid way to dechiper the meaning of "at the end of"

But this is a whole debate that can go around and around depending on interpretations.

I think that the game has been design to work as a loop with triggers that force it to be a point in time and only actions with those time stamps can be used. I beleave this causes the least rules issue.

It's over

Q: If I set up a unit on the battlefield as reinforcements at the
end of my Movement phase, can I then use any Stratagems that
are used ‘during your Movement phase’?
A: No, unless the Stratagem specifically says otherwise.

VINDICATION!

I'm just going to go with, "Called it."

Yeah, but it was Englishman who battled the trenches for weeks.

 hollow one wrote:
Yeah, but it was Englishman who battled the trenches for weeks.

I figure it's beside the point when it was correctly established from the get-go, but there's plenty of satisfaction for all of us anyway

Glad they clarified there intent,

It would have been nice to know why it dosnt work, as most of this thread was about trying to figure out the why rather then result

Gonna pop my head up and say this one was FAR less certain than, say, “do auto-hit weapons roll?” but it’s awesome there’s a simple, hard rule now. Fewer arguments makes for better games and a better YMDC (discussing and arguing aren’t the same). Great to have so many solid bursts of clarity from GW in one go.