Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
"Mary Sue" conventionally means a character inserted by the author as an avatar of themself, with ridiculous powers.

The characters of Anakin, Obi Wan and so on are just heroes.

It's really only originally intended to refer to fanfic characters inserted into other people's worlds.

These days it basically means "any hero that I don't like generally because they aren't like me".

Under modern Mary Sue definitions, Luke(as) Skywalker should probably be the poster boy for the archetype.

 trexmeyer wrote:
Most of the Star Wars principal cast scores petty high on the Mary Sue litmus test.

Just going off the top of my head.

Anakin Skywalker - "Cool" name, chosen one, allegedly has greater force potential than anyone, born into slavery, top five duelist at a minimum, second deadliest individual in the galaxy during the Empire's reign, possibly best fighter pilot in the galaxy, talented mechanic from an early age, best human pod racer on Tatooine, best pre adolescent pod racer/fighter pilot probably of all time, woos and wins a "Queen", love at first sight, no father and mother dies horribly...Padme continues to love him even though he just killed a tribe of Tusken Raiders...goes completely off the deep end and massacres more children...and adults...is somehow redeemed by his son.

Chosen One, but is clearly not invincible and has very real flaws in his character (some of which could and should VERY easily be expanded on).

Greater force potential because he's the chosen one.
Since when was being born into slavery a Mary Sue trait? It certainly exacerbates many issues (ie, slaves turning out to be better that trained experts in certain fields), but in itself isn't a problem.
He's a good duellist due to his force potential and channelling of both Light and Dark sides. However, can't be that much of a Mary Sue if he gets beaten by Kenobi - which has very real consequences for him.
Good fighter pilot has been established due to his skill in podracing, which both are supported by his prodigious force abilities. Again, that's his main sell, but because the Force is just so damn important in Star Wars, that makes him very good. However, it is explained within the rules of the universe, and it's not just handwaved away - he's good because of the Force.

His relationship with Padme on all fronts could have been written so much better than it was. I'll agree - her knowing he's murdered a whole tribe of Tusken (which is an anti-Mary Sue trait, considering that it wasn't a good thing he did, and he never technically repented from it) and still going on with him is a mistake.

Obi-Wan Kenobi - Probably a top five duelist during the Republic, trained two of the most powerful force users that we see in the first six films, beat Grievous, Maul, Anakin, and Jango Fett 1v1. Let's highlight that. As a padawan he took down the Sith that had just killed his master and matched them 1v2...expert pilot, compared to other characters he is a pretty good detective/tracker...

He was an exclusive master of defensive duelling - I'd hope he was good at it.
He trained two powerful force users, who were both already very skilled in the force due to their heritage. Not really a factor.
Doesn't beat Maul 1v1 - Jinn and him wear him down, and Maul gets cocky.
Anakin (again, unlike a Mary Sue to be beaten, eh?) also lets his rage and anger blind him, with very real consequences.
Grevious was a very aggressive duellist,used to fighting and overpowering Jedi who tried the same. Kenobi was unique in that he was a perfect counter - a defensive master. Grevious met his polar opposite.
Jango wasn't a force user, and escaped in good condition, albeit being rescued by his son.

Luke Skywalker - Took down the Death Star his first time in an X-Wing and with minimal force training, was deflecting blaster bolts the second time we see him pick up a lightsaber. (Have we even see Rey deflect a blaster bolt yet?) Talented enough as a duelist that he countered Vader's second attempt at a riposte on Bespin, but it did cost him his hand. Losing his hand didn't matter, got a new one. Second time he fought Vader he beat him down. Yes, the guy who received minimal training and has fought a total of two lightsaber duels defeated the guy who killed multiple veteran Jedi/Sith. Another chosen one, redeemed his father, so pure of heart he resisted Sidious, took down Jabba the Hutt's crime syndicate, extremely talented pilot and strategist, decent mechanic. In sequels was able to force project himself across the galaxy.

Luke, more than anyone, is no more of a Mary Sue than a hero of a Greek myth.
Him taking down the Death Star is supported by his experiences with T16s and Womp Rats, and his clear openess to the Force.
He deflects blaster bolts after being hit several times.
Not that talented if he loses a hand - and again, Vader's not the Skywalker he used to be after Mustafar. Beat Vader the second time because he very clearly fell and embraced the Dark Side, if only by a degree - the more Mary Sue part is the fact he was able to come back from that.
Vader's Jedi killing sprees mostly happened pre-Mustafar. Still good after, but not like he was before. Plus, Luke was his son - he probably pulled punches in order to sway him over.

Again, most of his non Force skills are supported by his life on Tatooine, barring strategy. That is a fluke.

Han Solo - Despite being a former drug smuggler no one brings this up/if they do it is because he is famous. One of the best pilots in the galaxy. Also a talent combat marksman and strategist. Woos and wins the heart of a "Princess." Is constantly gruff and abrasive but no one ever seems to care. Picks on C3PO (in contrast to how well Luke treats R2D2) and no stops him or even cares. Obviously has an intentionally "cool" name. Strongest argument against him being a Sue is that he actually gets captured and has to be rescued.

People bring up his less savoury past in ANH - after that, he's part of the Alliance, and frankly, they don't care. He saved Luke and allowed him to pull off the Death Star killing shot.
Being a talented fighter and a smart mind come from his own experiences in combat in his smuggling background.
Winning the heart of a princess is a matter of personal preference of the princess.
Being constantly gruff and abrasive (well, except in the times when he's not) isn't a Mary Sue trait, nor is people not responding to it - him being an active donkey-cave, which he isn't, would be. And besides, in ANH, Luke and Leia often call him out on his gruffness.
Picking on droids is something that people rarely care about in Star Wars, it seems.

Rey - Good mechanic, good pilot, beats a wounded/mentally weak Kylo Ren, has raw force power to match Kylo Ren, manages to resist a mind probe and use mind trick with no training, beats Luke 1v1 (Luke had a stick and wasn't using the Force). Beats Snoke's Praetorians with Ren (I think she got 2 and he dropped 4?) .

Her being a mechanic is fine, fits with her literally being raised in a scrapyard. However, her being a good pilot? How? Why? If she's poor, she probably wouldn't have flown ships. Perhaps it's her force powers - fine, but where do THEY come from? I'm cool with it not being bloodline related, that's good, but she's not been taught anything - how is she so good?

She wouldn't be so much of a Sue in my eyes if the reason she was so good was explained. Really, it just seems like the screenwriters want another uber-powerful Jedi, but haven't supported the WHY.

Her fight vs Kylo has been argued to death. Writer intent was that he was wounded, emotionally vulnerable, and wasn't ordered to kill her. She had nothing to lose and fought like a trapped lion.

Of course, death of the author. Again, her beating him isn't so much of an issue. It's that he beat Finn quite handily, a combat trained Stormtrooper (yeah, still a Stormtrooper, but as TR-8R shows us, First Order Stormtroopers have an increased aptitude for melee combat), but struggles with Rey. Why is Rey so much better than a trained soldier?

IMO, the worst thing about her character isn't that she the best at everything, it is that she is emotionally flat and overly optimistic. She's not complex whatsoever.

Eh, somewhat true. She has some emotional range, certainly, but that might be more the fault of the screenwriter for not giving the actress chances to push it, keeping her overly optimistic and flat as you say.

The modern version of a 'Mary Sue' is basically a checklist of overly done tropes. It can be countered somewhat by good writing, but I'd argue that Anakin's arc is not an example of that.

Things like being the chosen one, having special powers outside rare in one's species, coming from an underprivileged background (orphan or slave are common), being inexplicably attractive, having rare hair/eye color, getting away with bullgak because you're the 'bestest and can do no wrong', being excessively skilled in multiple fields (particularly at a young age), being half human half anything special or rare, etc are all common elements in the modern Mary Sue.

It is not simply an author insert anymore, it just began as that.

Another comparison, spoilered as to not take up the damn page.

 trexmeyer wrote:
The modern version of a 'Mary Sue' is basically a checklist of overly done tropes. It can be countered somewhat by good writing, but I'd argue that Anakin's arc is not an example of that.

Things like being the chosen one, having special powers outside rare in one's species, coming from an underprivileged background (orphan or slave are common), being inexplicably attractive, having rare hair/eye color, getting away with bullgak because you're the 'bestest and can do no wrong', being excessively skilled in multiple fields (particularly at a young age), being half human half anything special or rare, etc are all common elements in the modern Mary Sue.

It is not simply an author insert anymore, it just began as that.

Another comparison, spoilered as to not take up the damn page.

Spoiler:

Chosen One: Anakin, Luke. From other stories: Harry Potter, Daenerys can potentially be one. From the sequels: Kylo and Rey can both qualify based on their alleged power.

Special Powers: Any Jedi. In particular exceedingly powerful Jedi. From other stories: Harry is somewhat talented at combat, but not really on par with veteran wizards. Daenerys did awaken the dragons and is immune to fire.

Underprivileged background: Anakin was a slave. Luke was an orphan. Harry was an abused orphan. Daenerys was an orphan and sold off as a bride.

Attractive: Anakin, Luke, and Rey qualify. Kylo doesn't even if some people do consider him attractive, it's really not universal. Harry is pretty average. Daenerys qualifies.

Rare Hair/Eye Color: Harry has green eyes which are rare and an identifying scar. Daenerys has the violet eyes and white-blonde hair of Targaryens.

Getting away with bullgak: Anakin qualifies in that he wiped out a tribe. Harry has gotten away with mischief constantly. Daenerys somewhat, but not excessively so.

Being excessively skilled: All the Star Wars 4 are skilled force users and pilots. Anakin, Luke, and Rey may all qualify as mechanics as well. Harry not so much. Daenerys is charismatic, but that's about it.

Being half human half special: Star Wars 4 in that they are force users. Harry is a wizard, but that's not uncommon in his 'real' world. Living Targaryens can be counted on one hand.

What's the difference?

Anakin does fall from virtue and becomes the Dragon.
Luke doesn't win by combat, but his pure heart. However, this is only after coming his rage.
Rey is currently on the losing horribly side.
Ren is winning, but got upstaged by Luke.
Harry won through Horcrux ex machina.
Daenerys is...who knows?

IMO, the only thing that really separates these characters is quality of writing and the fact more and more OP characters have been introduced since Luke, so his characteristics are less analyzed than the latter ones.

Which is why mary sue basically doesnt exist. Batman is a mary sue by "modern definition" . hes excessivly skilled, everyone likes or at least respect him. He always wins, orphaned, rich, etc etc...


Again, if Rey is a mary sue then everyone is. We follow exceptional people because exceptional people are interesting.

 Lance845 wrote:
Again, if Rey is a mary sue then everyone is. We follow exceptional people because exceptional people are interesting.

I've got no issue following Rey, or her being exceptional. However, I do want to know WHY she's exceptional.

I know why Batman is exceptional.
I know why Daenerys is exceptional.
I know why Harry Potter is exceptional.
I know why Luke is exceptional.
I know why Anakin is exceptional.
I don't know why Rey is, compared to other people like Finn, Kylo, and Leia.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Again, if Rey is a mary sue then everyone is. We follow exceptional people because exceptional people are interesting.

I've got no issue following Rey, or her being exceptional. However, I do want to know WHY she's exceptional.

I know why Batman is exceptional.
I know why Daenerys is exceptional.
I know why Harry Potter is exceptional.
I know why Luke is exceptional.
I know why Anakin is exceptional.
I don't know why Rey is, compared to other people like Finn, Kylo, and Leia.

Why is Batman so intelligent?
Why is Han Solo such a good pilot?
Do you know why Daenerys is exceptional? Because her entire family were not exceptional in even remotely the same way or scale. It just appears to be her for no good reason.
Why is Jon Snow exceptional at anything? He's got no reason to be better then any body else and lots of reasons to be worse.
Why does Ellen Ripley have such a bad ass backbone? She's just a trucker and a mother.
Why is Ferris Beuller exceptional? He's just a megalomaniac in high school.
Why is Madmartigan such a great swordsman? (Willow bitches!)

 Lance845 wrote:
Why is Batman so intelligent?

He's rich, and driven.

 Lance845 wrote:

Why is Han Solo such a good pilot?

Because he ran the Kessel Run in less than 12 parsecs...and he's a conman who gets lucky; never tell him the odds.

 Lance845 wrote:

Do you know why Daenerys is exceptional? Because her entire family were not exceptional in even remotely the same way or scale.

She's a Targaryen, that's established as being important in the first season.

 dogma wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Why is Batman so intelligent?

He's rich, and driven.

Being rich and driven can GET you a lot of things, but it can't give you a natural aptitude for intellect. The Dark Knight Batman is an idiot who is rich and driven. Comic Book batman is intelligent in a way almost nobody else in the DC universe can compete with.

 Lance845 wrote:

Why is Han Solo such a good pilot?

Because he ran the Kessel Run in less than 12 parsecs...and he's a conman who gets lucky; never tell him the odds.

The Kessel Run proove that he IS a good pilot. How did he BECOME a good pilot? I need to know WHY!? Where do all his skills come from? Without knowing WHY hes so good he's just some Mary Sue or something.

 Lance845 wrote:

Do you know why Daenerys is exceptional? Because her entire family were not exceptional in even remotely the same way or scale.

She's a Targaryen, that's established as being important in the first season.

Neither the show nor the books say that being a Targaryen is important for anything but having a claim to the Iron Throne. Her 2 brothers, 2 nephews and niece were/are all Targaryens. So was her father the Mad king, and 500 years of family going back. The blind Maester Aegon at the wall was a Targaryen. I didn't see him hatch dragons and be immune to fire.

The Targaryens are the last Valyrians and by default, the last dragon riders. They are heavily implied to be better. Their decline is a just another play on the fall of a once great house/empire.
If being Targaryen meant nothing Jon's heritage would it be nearly as important as it's played out to be. The claim to the Iron Throne is meaningless. What matters is that theirs is the last blood known to be capable of controlling the most powerful weapon in Westeros. If you can't see how that matters, I don't know what else to say.

Why is Luke exceptional? Why is Han? And Anakin? They just are because they are the heroes and in YA level writing that is the standard.

It is also, albeit a poor one, reflection on life. Some people are blessed with greater physical and mental gifts in areas that the rest of society values. Some of those individuals are incredibly driven. Sometimes the average person is in the right place at the right for them to do something incredible. It doesn't have to be complex.

There are pro athletes who compete and excel at the highest level even though they picked up the game much later than most of their peers.

Why is Usain Bolt the fastest man ever at 100m? Does he outwork everyone? No, he's exceptional to begin with and worked hard to develop his talent.

Mary Sue can be applied to pretty much any heroic character ever if the writing is poor enough. Which again, if there is a problem with Rey it is that her character is very flat so far. TBH, Luke was widely considered to be boring, by comparison to his peers, as well.

Edit: To be more specific regarding Rey and Luke.

Rey established that she could fly with "I'm a pilot." Luke did so with the bulls eyeing swamp rats bit. Rey doing a mind trick and winning a melee fight is IMO mostly comparable to Luke blowing up the Death Star. And it was established Finn wasn't a great fighter by any means AND she did lay him out earlier and was shown to hold her own.

Her problem is that her attitude makes ZERO sense given her background. Luke grew up with a family and is pretty much a stereotypical idealistic young man with dreams of glory and a life as fight pilot.

Nothing in Rey's life should have shaped her into the trusting, optimistic young woman that she is...she should be distrustful, emotionally guarded, possibly have a bit of a cruel streak, and ready to fight at the drop of a hat. Her emotional behavior befuddles me.

IMO, the only thing that really separates these characters is quality of writing and the fact more and more OP characters have been introduced since Luke, so his characteristics are less analyzed than the latter ones.

Luke also fought pretty horribly early on, getting taken out by Tusken Raiders of all things, and his shooting skills weren't a major factor in most of the fights he was in. We actually had an explanation for why he's a good pilot (at least having mentioned training).. But he loses pretty much all his early fights before proper training

Rey doing a mind trick and winning a melee fight is IMO mostly comparable to Luke blowing up the Death Star.

Don't forget she out forced Kylo (pulled the lightsaber from the snow), and turned his own mental interrogation back on him.

 trexmeyer wrote:
The Targaryens are the last Valyrians and by default, the last dragon riders. They are heavily implied to be better. Their decline is a just another play on the fall of a once great house/empire.
If being Targaryen meant nothing Jon's heritage would it be nearly as important as it's played out to be. The claim to the Iron Throne is meaningless. What matters is that theirs is the last blood known to be capable of controlling the most powerful weapon in Westeros. If you can't see how that matters, I don't know what else to say.

Why is Luke exceptional? Why is Han? And Anakin? They just are because they are the heroes and in YA level writing that is the standard.

It is also, albeit a poor one, reflection on life. Some people are blessed with greater physical and mental gifts in areas that the rest of society values. Some of those individuals are incredibly driven. Sometimes the average person is in the right place at the right for them to do something incredible. It doesn't have to be complex.

There are pro athletes who compete and excel at the highest level even though they picked up the game much later than most of their peers.

Why is Usain Bolt the fastest man ever at 100m? Does he outwork everyone? No, he's exceptional to begin with and worked hard to develop his talent.

Mary Sue can be applied to pretty much any heroic character ever if the writing is poor enough. Which again, if there is a problem with Rey it is that her character is very flat so far. TBH, Luke was widely considered to be boring, by comparison to his peers, as well.

In a show/series that started with the title "A Game of Thrones" thats has, for the vast majority of it's plot, been about who has claim to and will end up sitting on the Iron Throne, being the crown Prince and direct heir to the throne is a very big deal. Deanerys is only second in line because she is Reagars younger sister. She gets it if he has no heirs. But Jon is his son. Which means Danny has no actual claim. That is why it's important.

Their blood hadn't had claim to dragons for hundreds of years and nobody had ridden one in many hundreds more before that. What makes DANNY so special in a long line of people who had nothing special about them?

The rest of your stuff I agree with. That was the point I was making. Sgt. Smudge needs to know why Rey is exceptional. She could just BE exceptional but he needs a explanation for why she has inborn talent.

Which makes sense. He has never had to fight. He can fly and fix things.

Rey should be able to fight. She's had to do that to protect herself. Her piloting feats don't match Luke's and his combat feats don't match her's after their first appearances. That part makes perfect sense to me.

Edit: That is just the series title.

The series is rightly titled A Song of Ice and Fire. That's the real war. It's not really a discussion for this thread and I think we should just drop it since we won't see eye to eye.

Sgt. Smudge needs to know why Rey is exceptional. She could just BE exceptional but he needs a explanation for why she has inborn talent.

Well.. She could just be the most exceptional, most powerful person just because... But that's boring, bad storytelling, and isn't really fun to watch someone just smash their way through everyone because you are just straight up exceptional to begin with. Needing nobody or much training to match anyone whose trained for ages, just taking a day to match eye to eye with the previous powerful.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Sgt. Smudge needs to know why Rey is exceptional. She could just BE exceptional but he needs a explanation for why she has inborn talent.

Well.. She could just be the most exceptional, most powerful person just because... But that's boring, bad storytelling, and isn't really fun to watch someone just smash their way through everyone because you are just straight up exceptional to begin with. Needing nobody or much training to match anyone whose trained for ages, just taking a day to match eye to eye with the previous powerful.

But she isn't. She beat a janitor, a wounded Ren, Luke with a stick and no force, and was overshadow by Ren when they fought Snoke's guards. Which is part of the problem. She hasn't lost because she hasn't faced anyone capable of beating her at the time.

Shilling my own WIP here

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Sgt. Smudge needs to know why Rey is exceptional. She could just BE exceptional but he needs a explanation for why she has inborn talent.

Well.. She could just be the most exceptional, most powerful person just because... But that's boring, bad storytelling, and isn't really fun to watch someone just smash their way through everyone because you are just straight up exceptional to begin with. Needing nobody or much training to match anyone whose trained for ages, just taking a day to match eye to eye with the previous powerful.

Sure, if your point is that you don't like it, or that you would prefer better writing, or that you think it's boring then thats fine. I can see why you would feel that way and respect your opinion. Apply that to Batman, Han Solo, and all the others who have a natural talent that exceeds the skills of those who need to work to be not as good then.

My basic argument in this particular arena is that Rey catches gak for being what everyone else is and labeled a Mary Sue for it. I have never seen the venom slung at Rey's character dumped on Batman, or Han, or any of the other characters we could list all day. You find her personality flat? I can see how you got there. You think it's unbelievable that she has some skills and raw power and uses it? What exactly is the difference between her and every other character in every other story you enjoy?

I don't dislike her character. For a Star Wars film she works. I'm actually agreeing with you in that sense. Honestly, aside from a handful of titles, I don't care at all for comic book writing. The movies are generally better.

Batman? The guy whose trained with many people across the world, learning various styles, combat mysteries, and spent much of his lifetime training, building gadgetry through his various companies.. It's like you picked the one person who has literally been shown to have trained most of his life in order to do what he does. Having sacrificed his own childhood and early years just so he can fight crime and try to make his city better as his father tried.

While people call him invincible it doesn't compare given how many times he's been beaten in the comics, one of the most famously by Bane when he broke the batman and he had to spend months in care because he was just beaten so badly. Not to mention the various times the Jokers overcome him, and even some sideline villains have pulled things over on the bat. It's basically just a meme that Batman has a plan for everything and can defeat everyone.

Han Solo though we are supposed to identify as a mercenary whose trained and been a ruthless fighter through his life And yes, his skills are a bit odd.. But that's the thing, he's not the one on the heroes journey, you can tell he's been through a fair bit of life in a rough and tumble mercenary way. He's not the one the story is truly about at first, it's about the plucky young character whose story is being built up about them at the center, where we see their advancement and skills rise to the challenge while needing to be propped up by other more skilled characters.

Now if Han Solo in Solo the movie is just as skilled as adult, rugged Han.. I'd make the same complaints.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Batman? The guy whose trained with many people across the world, learning various styles, combat mysteries, and spent much of his lifetime training, building gadgetry through his various companies.. It's like you picked the one person who has literally been shown to have trained most of his life in order to do what he does. Having sacrificed his own childhood and early years just so he can fight crime and try to make his city better as his father tried.

While people call him invincible it doesn't compare given how many times he's been beaten in the comics, one of the most famously by Bane when he broke the batman and he had to spend months in care because he was just beaten so badly. Not to mention the various times the Jokers overcome him, and even some sideline villains have pulled things over on the bat. It's basically just a meme that Batman has a plan for everything and can defeat everyone.

Han Solo though we are supposed to identify as a mercenary whose trained and been a ruthless fighter through his life And yes, his skills are a bit odd.. But that's the thing, he's not the one on the heroes journey, you can tell he's been through a fair bit of life in a rough and tumble mercenary way. He's not the one the story is truly about at first, it's about the plucky young character whose story is being built up about them at the center, where we see their advancement and skills rise to the challenge while needing to be propped up by other more skilled characters.

Now if Han Solo in Solo the movie is just as skilled as adult, rugged Han.. I'd make the same complaints.

Yeah, Batman, the guy who for no reason whats so ever is a crazy super genius. Not from training or anything. His natural intellect. Not from comic book radiation or having his neurons spread through his entire body like Ultimate Tony Stark or being able to stretch his mind like Reed Richards. But actually just himself being one of the top 5-10ish intellects on the planet.

Yes Batman, whos tragic past gives him his drive and motivations just like all the Mary Sues. Batman, who gets all the ladies, good guys and bad guys, is rich, has an answer to every problem on his belt at every moment.

Do you mean to tell me Batman didn't build a satalite database filled with the strengths, weaknesses and identities of every hero and villian on the planet along with contingency plans for how to beat them all?
Whats this? Infinite Crisis! What are you doing there!

AH yes, when bane broke batmans back. Did you read that story? Bane let all of batmans bad guys out of Arkham. Batman was awake for 6 days strait tracking them all down, fighting them, catching them, and putting them back in Arkham. Then, on the 7th day, Bane showed up and Batman, exhausted, was like "Who the feth are you?", because Bane had not revealed himself yet, and then beat a completely wiped batman who had no idea who he was fighting.

But it's okay! Because batman fixed his spine with magic and then beat the crap out of bane when he had a nap. Thats a reasonable extreme to go to to beat a regular person and not then have them come back and knock you senseless.

Ive seen the Han Solo trailers. It looks like his skills are even better when young if any of that flying and driving is him in the seat.

The magicked spine was pretty feh... But you could tell they really wanted to get batman back in because Azazel was causing comicbook sales to plummit when they tried "Grittier, angelic murderin' angry batman replacement"

But sure, I'll concede your point on the intellect and somehow suave ability (Personally I prefer the stories where his anti-social nature tends to screw him over, but Batman just has so many comic books and general retcons you overall see things)

As for the Han Solo.. I've been skipping the trailers since I prefer avoiding such, but I really hope that's not the case.

Also I will agree Rey's character as a whole is bland which you did mention before.. I think TLJ actually fixed it a bit by making her the straight woman to some zany antics given by Luke and dealing with Kylo outside of her comfort zone of fighting, made her seem more personable then TFA's attempt at unfazed everywoman. Probably one of the few benefits to TLJ I will agree on.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
The magicked spine was pretty feh... But you could tell they really wanted to get batman back in because Azazel was causing comicbook sales to plummit when they tried "Grittier, angelic murderin' angry batman replacement"

But sure, I'll concede your point on the intellect and somehow suave ability (Personally I prefer the stories where his anti-social nature tends to screw him over, but Batman just has so many comic books and general retcons you overall see things)

The even MORE fethed thing is all the years Barabara Gordon spent in a wheel chair when clearly Batman knew how to fix spines instantly and without repercussions.

As for the Han Solo.. I've been skipping the trailers since I prefer avoiding such, but I really hope that's not the case.

Also I will agree Rey's character as a whole is bland which you did mention before.. I think TLJ actually fixed it a bit by making her the straight woman to some zany antics given by Luke and dealing with Kylo outside of her comfort zone of fighting, made her seem more personable then TFA's attempt at unfazed everywoman. Probably one of the few benefits to TLJ I will agree on.

Sure. And I am not saying to you directly that I have a problem with any of your personal opinions on any of the movies. You can like or dislike whatever you want. I just take umbrage with the Mary Sue argument because it's so narrowly focused on Rey for "reasons".

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Also, stop criticizing the people who liked it fot getting defensive if your every post about disliking the movie is going to include broad generalizations and attacks on the people who enjoyed it.

Let's be fair here. A lot of the fans who were being defensive started out by going on a good offensive. Even though I really liked TLJ, I've found myself arguing on the "haters" side because the superfans have been so condescending and unreasonable. You might not have been the one with the beam in his own eye, but you're certainly not helping when you keep harping on the motes in others' eyes.

the gibes across the line is one thing and can be a entertaining way to discuss a movie, having the studio jump in and slander their audience is quite a new step.

In the original thread I said the side plot to las vegas was pointless, and someone countered with 'oh you just hate the actress who played rose'. The haters would write long lists of why they didn't like the movie, to be countered with 'that's not the reason you don't like it, you don't even know the reason why you don't like it' Which is what the mouse is selling, if you don't like this movie then there's something seriously wrong with you. The same thing has been brewing with solo, It can't be bad because of all the drama on the set and the 3 directors, it must be because we made lando a pan. The funniest is blaming the rotten tomatoes score on Russian bots. A horrible side plot and the worst admiral in existence makes for a bad movie, I doubt the Russians care about it's ratings.

This new attitude from Disney is just horrible, they attack people for not liking their movies. How does that help you sell movies? how does that make anyone want to see the next one? since when did alienating audiences become good marketing? Sure they can coast a while on the words 'star wars' but I can't see that lasting very long at this rate.

the only good thing about bad star wars movies is we get spoofs that are better than the movies.

You do realize the TLJ HISHE is mocking all the "haters" too, right?

Are you sure the studio itself created that ad hominem style of defensive criticism? I thought that was started by over enthusiastic fans while Disney sat on the sideline.

 trexmeyer wrote:
Most of the Star Wars principal cast scores petty high on the Mary Sue litmus test.

Just going off the top of my head.

Luke Skywalker - Took down the Death Star his first time in an X-Wing and with minimal force training, was deflecting blaster bolts the second time we see him pick up a lightsaber. (Have we even see Rey deflect a blaster bolt yet?) Talented enough as a duelist that he countered Vader's second attempt at a riposte on Bespin, but it did cost him his hand. Losing his hand didn't matter, got a new one. Second time he fought Vader he beat him down. Yes, the guy who received minimal training and has fought a total of two lightsaber duels defeated the guy who killed multiple veteran Jedi/Sith. Another chosen one, redeemed his father, so pure of heart he resisted Sidious, took down Jabba the Hutt's crime syndicate, extremely talented pilot and strategist, decent mechanic. In sequels was able to force project himself across the galaxy.

vs

Rey - Good mechanic, good pilot, beats a wounded/mentally weak Kylo Ren, has raw force power to match Kylo Ren, manages to resist a mind probe and use mind trick with no training, beats Luke 1v1 (Luke had a stick and wasn't using the Force). Beats Snoke's Praetorians with Ren (I think she got 2 and he dropped 4?) .



I don't see how she is more egregious than any others. The flying tricks are a product of improved CGI and a demand for over the top action. I don't doubt that Solo and Luke would have similar OTT action scenes as pilots if Star Wars was launched in 2015 and not 1977. Her fight vs Kylo has been argued to death. Writer intent was that he was wounded, emotionally vulnerable, and wasn't ordered to kill her. She had nothing to lose and fought like a trapped lion. IMO, the worst thing about her character isn't that she the best at everything, it is that she is emotionally flat and overly optimistic. She's not complex whatsoever.

when it comes to marry sue though, your just looking at what they did, not what they failed at. A Mary Sue is a character (male, female, or otherwise) who is given or is expected to be given unwarranted preferential treatment and unearned respect.

Everyone questioned and doubted lukes abilities, Ray got handed the keys to the falcon, and chewbacca just goes along with her. Leia just instantly loves this girl on first site and seeks a comferting hug from her instead of chewy, .

Luke couldn't even lift his own x wing out of the swamp, and rays tossing them all over the place. In the sequals luke still can't lift his xwing out of the water.

Like you said, luke lost his first fight against vader, ray has yet to lose a fight and has won every force contest she's faced. at this point kylo needs a training montage to catch up to her skills.

I do agree though, she's a shallow character, but then again so is the rest of the characters, there's really no depth to any of them.

The thing that broke it for me regarding Ray was when she out-forced Kylo. Everything else is pretty minor or explainable to me.

 Kroem wrote:

Aww man, the battle between the Gungans and the droid army and the podrace were my favourite parts of Phantom Menace!

It makes me sad when people bash on Episode 1, I was 10 when it came out and enjoyed it in a way that no other Star Wars film came close to until Rogue 1.

It's interesting, I was just starting out on the internet when the prequels came out, and I remember the initial response was a lot more nuanced than you might guess. Yes, there were things people hated right off the bat (Jar-Jar!), but people would talk about liking this bit*, that other bit was cool, etc. It took a bit of time for the opinions to calcify into WORST MOVIES EVAR.


* One moment I really liked was in the Jedi battle when the force walls come up and separate everyone for a few seconds. Obi-Wan seethes with impatience, Darth Maul stalks up and down like a caged animal, never looking away from his prey, and Qui-Gon sits down and meditates.

I didn't hate TLJ, but I am not sure I will watch it again for a while. The movie just didn't really go anywhere and felt like just a setup for the next one. Which a lot of movies do. But most of the movie just felt like a setup.

There are parts I really enjoyed which others didn't. Like I really enjoyed the Yoda scene.

Also I wish we would have learned more about Snoke, like who the hell was he? I also am not reading a book to find out, they should have had something in the movie.

 Vash108 wrote:
I also am not reading a book to find out, they should have had something in the movie.

And if he had been a more pivotal character, they might have. Ultimately, the movies told us all we really need to know about Snoke (he was a powerful force user bent on galactic domination who twisted Ben Solo for his own ends and made the classic Sith mistake of thinking he was more in control of events than he really was...) and more than we knew about Palpatine by this point in the original trilogy...

Snoke was ultimately just misdirection. He's not the big bad guy of this trilogy.

The Yoda scene was one of the worst, IMO. I don't understand why Yoda was acting like a crazy jerk - that was his cover, before he let Luke know who he really was. That wasn't his true personality. Again, has Rian seen Star Wars before?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 insaniak wrote:
Snoke was ultimately just misdirection.

The same could be said for most of TFA, in light of TLJ.

 Manchu wrote:
The Yoda scene was one of the worst, IMO. I don't understand why Yoda was acting like a crazy jerk - that was his cover, before he let Luke know who he really was. That wasn't his true personality. Again, has Rian seen Star Wars before?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 insaniak wrote:
Snoke was ultimately just misdirection.

The same could be said for most of TFA, in light of TLJ.

Apparently Yoda's true personality is a out and out coward who says "screw the galaxy" when he loses a fight, at least according to the prequals

Snoke was ultimately just misdirection. He's not the big bad guy of this trilogy.

or just yet more weak, lazy writing from an incompetent team which seems to fit the rest of the film.

If they had truely wanted to subvert the narrative (or other total nonsense the critics claim was occurring in a desperate defence of pure crap) then Ben would not have just become another pantimonie villain when given the choice, but it easier to just carry on with the same Evil Empire vs Plucky Rebels, again - lazy writers and director

 Manchu wrote:
The Yoda scene was one of the worst, IMO. I don't understand why Yoda was acting like a crazy jerk - that was his cover, before he let Luke know who he really was. That wasn't his true personality. Again, has Rian seen Star Wars before?

Yoda still uses his weird syntax while he's training Luke in ESB. It's less weird than when they first meet, but it's still weird.