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 Daedalus81 wrote:
T'au players get to rejoice - they don't need the strat at all.

Sigh.

Did you really expect Tau not to get Overwatch for free as their blanket army superdoctrine?

 Kanluwen wrote:
Did you really expect Tau not to get Overwatch for free as their blanket army superdoctrine?

Fear not, I learned long ago not to expect anything worthwhile to come out of GW's rules department.

Or maybe you're just being pouty because the army that's had a benefit to Overwatch gets...a benefit to Overwatch?

And putting it rather delicately, unless you give the Tau a whole schlock of melee options out of the blue...this is going to be the way.

How does GW decide when a rule was good and part of a faction core game play or bad and has to be nerfed?

First, I am not a Tau player, and second I think it is bad rules design in general for an entire faction to ignore one set of rules in the game (anyone who play WH fantasy and had to deal with undead or daemons being immune to psychology, while your units were not will get it).

However, at this point I am not going to speculate on the rules being good, bad or otherwise. I know that the table top tactics guys, and I believe the front line gaming guys (among others), were involved in play testing and I trust both of those studios to have provided solid input, and the TTT guys specifically stated in their youtube video that they felt that GW was really listening. Now maybe that is all smoke up the community's ass, maybe not, but if true then perhaps the reason Tau got to keep their very powerful overwatch rules was that with the base rule (one OW costing CP) they were getting curb stomped in play testing. That is not beyond belief, and quite frankly probably pretty likely as if you got past the OW against Tau, you basically cut them to pieces, especially if fly can't move out of combat and shoot anymore. And we don't know how all the other rule interactions (like LOS blocking terrain or -1 to hit terrain) is affecting the armies in play testing, we don't know if the points are going to reflect this OW ability, etc.

So right now I would say that I don't know if this is good or bad or whatever, but I am really looking forward to playing 9th to find out.

I trust FLG to have no solid or useful input, frankly. They care about their tournaments and their tournaments only.

And let's be real here:
Previously, "For the Greater Good"? Wasn't even really considered that "powerful" of an ability. It definitely could be strong with the right setups but given the way we have had Charges suggested to work so far?

This isn't as big of a deal as people are making it out to be.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Karol wrote:

It is as if in WWII the deadliest anti tank weapon was the flak wirbel.

I don't recall the Wirbelwind or Ostwind ever squaring up against something like a Churchill, Pershing, T-34 or even M4. That gun was dangerous, but more for light vehicles.

On the eastern front the Germans loved using the quick firing 20mm autocannons against Soviet thans, they were incredibly effective in AT roles, albeit not actually knocking out enemy vehicles. They were also popular for their ability to be used against both soft ground and air targets.

Basically if you're in a tank being hit by those things, you have no idea what's actually firing at you, you just hear these big shots hitting your vehicle but not penetrating. So often the T-34's etc would fall back as fast as possible after coming under fire from such weapons. It's the main reason the 2cm Autocannon half tracks replaced the 3.7cm traditional AT gun on platoon commander's half tracks.

Ok it's rare you're going to see a Wirbelwind or Ostwind in such roles, but it was an incredibly effective weapon and widely documented, albeit not in the traditional sense.

 Baldeagle91 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Karol wrote:

It is as if in WWII the deadliest anti tank weapon was the flak wirbel.

I don't recall the Wirbelwind or Ostwind ever squaring up against something like a Churchill, Pershing, T-34 or even M4. That gun was dangerous, but more for light vehicles.

On the eastern front the Germans loved using the quick firing 20mm autocannons against Soviet thans, they were incredibly effective in AT roles, albeit not actually knocking out enemy vehicles. They were also popular for their ability to be used against both soft ground and air targets.

Basically if you're in a tank being hit by those things, you have no idea what's actually firing at you, you just hear these big shots hitting your vehicle but not penetrating. So often the T-34's etc would fall back as fast as possible after coming under fire from such weapons. It's the main reason the 2cm Autocannon half tracks replaced the 3.7cm traditional AT gun on platoon commander's half tracks.

Ok it's rare you're going to see a Wirbelwind or Ostwind in such roles, but it was an incredibly effective weapon and widely documented, albeit not in the traditional sense.

So you're saying a gun that wasn't able to penetrate armor was used to effectively neuter tanks. Must have been rolling a lot of 6s.

Also, thanks for the insight - I quite enjoyed that.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
T'au players get to rejoice - they don't need the strat at all.

This monumentally sucks.

 blood reaper wrote:


This monumentally sucks.

Why?

 blood reaper wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
T'au players get to rejoice - they don't need the strat at all.

This monumentally sucks.

Once more for those who are hard of hearing, Overwatch *IS* the T'au Fight Phase.

sanguine40k wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
T'au players get to rejoice - they don't need the strat at all.

Spoiler:

This monumentally sucks.

Once more for those who are hard of hearing, Overwatch *IS* the T'au Fight Phase.

Yes. Until they rewrite the entire Tau Codex to allow Tau to Fall Back and shoot or shoot into close combat, Tau get to Overwatch better than anyone else.

 Baldeagle91 wrote:


On the eastern front the Germans loved using the quick firing 20mm autocannons against Soviet thans, they were incredibly effective in AT roles, albeit not actually knocking out enemy vehicles. They were also popular for their ability to be used against both soft ground and air targets.

Basically if you're in a tank being hit by those things, you have no idea what's actually firing at you, you just hear these big shots hitting your vehicle but not penetrating. So often the T-34's etc would fall back as fast as possible after coming under fire from such weapons. It's the main reason the 2cm Autocannon half tracks replaced the 3.7cm traditional AT gun on platoon commander's half tracks.

Ok it's rare you're going to see a Wirbelwind or Ostwind in such roles, but it was an incredibly effective weapon and widely documented, albeit not in the traditional sense.

Can you tell me on what book this is based, or at least when this was used to happen?
Because Achtung Panzer , or at least the reprint of the version from 1941 doesn't write anything about it being used as an anti tank weapon, or it having big impact on stoping anti tank charges, besides one mention of it being good vs fiziliers.

Russian sources write more about it being used as an anti infantry weapons sometimes, but most of the time it was needed to protect german colums from superior Russian Air Forces.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:


This monumentally sucks.

Why?

Because I was basically forced to never play close-combat as my army because of the Tau's ability to effectively totally circumvent close quarters fighting by virtue of how costly it is to even get there (anyone who suggests forking out £200 to buy Forge World droppods just so I can get a fight phase can spack off).

I had to move to an entirely ranged-focussed CSM army to handle the fact Tau escaped the CC phase entirely (which to be fair, got me something like a 60% win rate against Tau). I thought this might be a sign I didn't have to constantly meta-game to win against Tau, but nope, back to the Alpha Legion it is.

 blood reaper wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:


This monumentally sucks.

Why?

Because I was basically forced to never play close-combat as my army because of the Tau's ability to effectively totally circumvent close quarters fighting by virtue of how costly it is to even get there (anyone who suggests forking out £200 to buy Forge World droppods just so I can get a fight phase can spack off).

I had to move to an entirely ranged-focussed CSM army to handle the fact Tau escaped the CC phase entirely (which to be fair, got me something like a 60% win rate against Tau). I thought this might be a sign I didn't have to constantly meta-game to win against Tau, but nope, back to the Alpha Legion it is.

I think it might be too early to call. They can't fallback and shoot with their fly units any longer. Where actual Fallback stands I don't know.

I expected something like this, and Tau definitely need something to compensate for their weak melee phase, but like others I was hoping for something different. I dislike the idea of introducing a limitation in the game mechanics and then giving a whole faction a pass. Hopefully overwatch doesn’t get this treatment elsewhere too.

It’s the same way I dislike ATSKNF, and other rules that effectively ignore morale.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:


This monumentally sucks.

Why?

Because I was basically forced to never play close-combat as my army because of the Tau's ability to effectively totally circumvent close quarters fighting by virtue of how costly it is to even get there (anyone who suggests forking out £200 to buy Forge World droppods just so I can get a fight phase can spack off).

I had to move to an entirely ranged-focussed CSM army to handle the fact Tau escaped the CC phase entirely (which to be fair, got me something like a 60% win rate against Tau). I thought this might be a sign I didn't have to constantly meta-game to win against Tau, but nope, back to the Alpha Legion it is.

I think it might be too early to call. They can't fallback and shoot with their fly units any longer. Where actual Fallback stands I don't know.

Damn two less units can shoot at me? Woah, I guess my dust caked Khorne Bezerkers can return to the field after all this time.

 blood reaper wrote:

Damn two less units can shoot at me? Woah, I guess my dust caked Khorne Bezerkers can return to the field after all this time.

90% of their damage is on platforms that fly.

9th edition forces you to the center of the table. Without some form of overwatch, Tau were done as a faction.

Castling is a technique that was already failing in the last part of 8th, especially in CA19 missions. In 9th if you try to castle in a corner and shoot until nothing moves, you may as well concede.

Spoletta wrote:
9th edition forces you to the center of the table. Without some form of overwatch, Tau were done as a faction.

Castling is a technique that was already failing in the last part of 8th, especially in CA19 missions. In 9th if you try to castle in a corner and shoot until nothing moves, you may as well concede.

When is scoring in CA19? Bottom of phasing player or top of non-phasing? I can't remember now.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Or maybe you're just being pouty because the army that's had a benefit to Overwatch gets...a benefit to Overwatch?

A 'benefit to overwatch' would have been "Whenever you use the [Overwatch] stratagem, you can choose an additional unit to Overwatch with." or "whenever you use the [Overwatch] stratagem, up to two friendly units within 3" of the chosen unit may also overwatch against the target (even if they weren't the declared targets)."

This is 'Tau just outright ignore all normal restrictions to the 9th edition Overawtch rules.'

 Kanluwen wrote:
And putting it rather delicately, unless you give the Tau a whole schlock of melee options out of the blue...this is going to be the way.

Why? Overwatch didn't even exist prior to 6th. Why is it now that Tau suddenly can't live without it?

Also, why is it good game design for Tau not to have to make any meaningful gameplay decisions, compared to other factions?

Martel732 wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
9th edition forces you to the center of the table. Without some form of overwatch, Tau were done as a faction.

Castling is a technique that was already failing in the last part of 8th, especially in CA19 missions. In 9th if you try to castle in a corner and shoot until nothing moves, you may as well concede.

When is scoring in CA19? Bottom of phasing player or top of non-phasing? I can't remember now.

If i remember correctly, 2 missions are end of turn, 2 missions are end of round, 2 missions are start of the turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
By the way, this free overwatch counteracts the HUGE nerf they received.


Only one commander per detachment is staying, and good luck fielding more than one now!

Yeah FSE i know... but still one commander less and OW on 6+...

So approximately 50% of the time, Tau can rely on murdering people off objectives. But that's not enough to place at a tournament.

Personally I think Tau should be charged the 1 CP to use the Overwatch Strat but not have it limited to once per turn.

Make it a non-unique strat for them. Then add in FtGG and it's almost fair to the rest of 40K.


As a side note, iirc Multimeltas in RT / 2nd Edition dealt 1d20 damage that was doubled at half range (12").




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:

Why? Overwatch didn't even exist prior to 6th. Why is it now that Tau suddenly can't live without it?

Overwatch existed way back in 2nd Edition but you had to set units in "Overwatch". They couldn't move or fire on their turn, but if an enemy came into LoS and Range you could fire with that unit during the enemy turn.

Tau in tournaments relied on a fairly narrow strategy that allowed them to shoot very effectively for their points, tank wounds efficiently for some time, and routinely podium - even if they never had their glorious time in the sun like IK or Iron Hands.

To me, this is annoying for two reasons - it ignores rather than modifies a major rule everyone else has to deal with, and it does nothing to address the Triptide + drone spam and force diversification of tactics.

From the rules they've announced so far, greater mobility of the big battlesuits and ability to shoot in combat already makes CC much less scary for the Tau - as well as being one the few armies with dedicated anti-deepstrike equipment to keep surprises at bay.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
T'au players get to rejoice - they don't need the strat at all.

This is ridiculous.

Archebius wrote:
and it does nothing to address the Triptide + drone spam and force diversification of tactics.

That's what missions are for. T'au do ok in ITC, because they can consistently get kills and get a little bit of ground. It doesn't appear that dynamic will hold with these new missions that I do hope will override ITC based on what I'm seeing.

From the rules they've announced so far, greater mobility of the big battlesuits and ability to shoot in combat already makes CC much less scary for the Tau - as well as being one the few armies with dedicated anti-deepstrike equipment to keep surprises at bay.

Broadsides are out in the cold in that regard. Riptides are still quite strong and likely the only thing you'll encounter that can shoot into combat, but most of the ones I fought had Target Lock already.

The tried and true tactic of slamming Rhinos into Tau remains. Rejoice and make vroom vroom noises!

How does driving a rhino into a unit of drones get you anywhere? Why would the T'au player even care?