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Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran





 VladimirHerzog wrote:


beacause being defensive is your default state in recent threads


Again, I wonder why.
youre the one getting your panties in a twist

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in us
Thunderhawk Pilot Dropping From Orbit






Across the Rubicon

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
... not any geek off the street ...
So what you're saying is that the next Marine tank should be called a Regulator?


Well its gotta be handy with the steel, if you know what I mean, earn its keep. Then I'll mount up with Regulators.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/15 19:31:49


   
Made in us
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought






 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
... not any geek off the street ...
So what you're saying is that the next Marine tank should be called a Regulator?


Well its gotta be handy with the steel, if you know what I mean, earn its keep. Then I'll mount up with Regulators.
R.I.P. Nate Dogg :(

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




Breton wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:


beacause being defensive is your default state in recent threads


Again, I wonder why.
youre the one getting your panties in a twist


Maybe you should attempt to not get your
panties in a twist
and realize your faction is OP as hell right now might help your mental state.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/15 22:55:40


If at first you don't succeed then Sky Diving isn't for you. 
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch






Just relax guys..

Im sure we will see a new unit called wreckersors who will just make eradicators look like boy scouts lost in a bad neigberhood before the ink dries on the last codex next year... we can wait and see then again. All fine until then.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/772746.page#10378083 - My progress/failblog painting blog thingy

Eldar- 4436 pts


AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
 
   
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Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran





SemperMortis wrote:
Breton wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:


beacause being defensive is your default state in recent threads


Again, I wonder why.
youre the one getting your panties in a twist


Maybe you should attempt to not get your
panties in a twist
and realize your faction is OP as hell right now might help your mental state.


Gee Vlad, why do you suppose those Marine players get defensive? It's not like they don't see over and over this kind of commentary from you, then from someone else, then from yet another and so on and so on. But yeah, it's the Marine Player's fault for choosing an army 20 years ago.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




It is the most fun, when eldar players claim that all marines in one book is a good thing, but all eldar streamlined in to one would be the end of their hobby career.

This is a clear case of rules for thee and not for me. I wish I knew that w40k worked like that 3 years ago, I would have been more calm and not asked as many stupid questions.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in us
Tail Gunner





Breton wrote:
Gee Vlad, why do you suppose those Marine players get defensive? It's not like they don't see over and over this kind of commentary from you, then from someone else, then from yet another and so on and so on. But yeah, it's the Marine Player's fault for choosing an army 20 years ago.


This is a point I had to clarify with a Marine-playing friend: No one is blaming the median Marine player for the current utterly ridiculous state of Marines, or at least, no one sensible is doing so, because the situation sucks almost as much for them. We're blaming the company that can't write balanced rules for overpriced plastic spacemen.
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





 CEO Kasen wrote:
Breton wrote:
Gee Vlad, why do you suppose those Marine players get defensive? It's not like they don't see over and over this kind of commentary from you, then from someone else, then from yet another and so on and so on. But yeah, it's the Marine Player's fault for choosing an army 20 years ago.


This is a point I had to clarify with a Marine-playing friend: No one is blaming the median Marine player for the current utterly ridiculous state of Marines, or at least, no one sensible is doing so, because the situation sucks almost as much for them. We're blaming the company that can't write balanced rules for overpriced plastic spacemen.


maybe but when every fething conversation on the internet about 40k turns into people complaining about Marines it gets tiresome, it's like that guy Hockey fan who turns EVERY fething conversation about how terriable the Leafs are. "Hey Bill, nice weather we're having today innit" "It's pretty good man, definatly better then the leafs god i'm so pissed off that their galie missed that save last week" etc.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran





 CEO Kasen wrote:
Breton wrote:
Gee Vlad, why do you suppose those Marine players get defensive? It's not like they don't see over and over this kind of commentary from you, then from someone else, then from yet another and so on and so on. But yeah, it's the Marine Player's fault for choosing an army 20 years ago.


This is a point I had to clarify with a Marine-playing friend: No one is blaming the median Marine player for the current utterly ridiculous state of Marines, or at least, no one sensible is doing so, because the situation sucks almost as much for them. We're blaming the company that can't write balanced rules for overpriced plastic spacemen.


Try it from our side of the fence.

or at least, no one sensible is doing so
is a lot less common than you think. Seriously, spend some time. Go through the threads. See how often you see "Marine Players" as part of a call to nerf Marines and the tone of the response that includes those words. Then apply some human nature and realize that's going to stick out more on top of its frequency.

The ATV is how old now? less than a week, barely 6 days? Someone already decided it had to be nerfed because it gets 6 bolter shots and 2 Melta shots for ~80 points. For the roughly the same points you can get 1.5 Attack bikes that get 6 bolter shots and 3 Melta shots. You can also get a Tornado with 6 Assault Cannon shots and 2 Multi Melta shots. How many games do you think the ATV has had so far? How much thought do you think went into complaining about it less than a week in while ignoring models with 20 years of history under their belts? How much of that thought was anything but "Its New, Its Marine, Nerf it"?

By the way cue the usual suspects about to come in here with some sort of "Such and such army would love to have ATVs" as if I'm saying they're bad, not that there's several roads to the same destination here, so why did this person only complain about the new one? Also some "Try comparing to something outside of the Marine Codex" and whatever else they can throw at the wall until it sticks regardless of the point being made. Next to no thought went into that complaint. It was entirely emotion. Instead of taking a beat to examine their own complaint, they doubled down on it by trying to move their complaint about the quality and quantity of shots to durability. The idea of a new Primaris Unit being a replacement for an old one in preparation of squatting the old marines isn't a new concept. How many complaints about the new unit compare it to the one(s) it's replacing right off the bat? This one certainly didn't.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
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Regular Dakkanaut




BrianDavion wrote:
maybe but when every fething conversation on the internet about 40k turns into people complaining about Marines it gets tiresome, it's like that guy Hockey fan who turns EVERY fething conversation about how terriable the Leafs are. "Hey Bill, nice weather we're having today innit" "It's pretty good man, definatly better then the leafs god i'm so pissed off that their galie missed that save last week" etc.


It keeps coming up because people are still in denial about it.
   
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Hecaton wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
maybe but when every fething conversation on the internet about 40k turns into people complaining about Marines it gets tiresome, it's like that guy Hockey fan who turns EVERY fething conversation about how terriable the Leafs are. "Hey Bill, nice weather we're having today innit" "It's pretty good man, definatly better then the leafs god i'm so pissed off that their galie missed that save last week" etc.


It keeps coming up because people are still in denial about it.


Nobody denies the Leafs are bad and need a new goalie.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
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UK

Hecaton wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
maybe but when every fething conversation on the internet about 40k turns into people complaining about Marines it gets tiresome, it's like that guy Hockey fan who turns EVERY fething conversation about how terriable the Leafs are. "Hey Bill, nice weather we're having today innit" "It's pretty good man, definatly better then the leafs god i'm so pissed off that their galie missed that save last week" etc.


It keeps coming up because people are still in denial about it.


Also Because certain people are screaming that any kind of critisicm about a unit in the game is a deeply personal attack on them as the self proclaimed represetative of every Marine player in the universe - because everyone hates him (and therefore them). Even the Marine players who dare to say that their own units might just have a broken unit - well they hate Breton, Marines and themselves - thats how mind numbingly stupid his constant victim rants are.

I AM A MARINE PLAYER

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"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

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And usual suspect number 1 is heard from.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Breton wrote:
Hecaton wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
maybe but when every fething conversation on the internet about 40k turns into people complaining about Marines it gets tiresome, it's like that guy Hockey fan who turns EVERY fething conversation about how terriable the Leafs are. "Hey Bill, nice weather we're having today innit" "It's pretty good man, definatly better then the leafs god i'm so pissed off that their galie missed that save last week" etc.


It keeps coming up because people are still in denial about it.


Nobody denies the Leafs are bad and need a new goalie.


I honestly wouldn't know, despite being a Canadian I don't really follow Hockey... yeah heresy I know

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
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On moon miranda.

Hey everyone, let's get this thread back on discussing marines instead of complaining about each other Let's also keep in mind that sure, you may not want to hear about the Leafs from Bill, fair, but when you walk into Hockey bar after a Leafs game and try to talk to Bill, you're going to get what you get. While I can understand the feeling, you gotta remember the venue, this is an open internet discussion thread about marines and the changes to them, complaining about marines is not exactly forbidden or unexpected in such a context. Marines also aren't the only army to bear such stigma through the various editions Please play nice all!

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
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Karol wrote:
It is the most fun, when eldar players claim that all marines in one book is a good thing, but all eldar streamlined in to one would be the end of their hobby career.

This is a clear case of rules for thee and not for me. I wish I knew that w40k worked like that 3 years ago, I would have been more calm and not asked as many stupid questions.


The various Eldar subfactions don't share any units or rules so consolidating them into one book would make 0 sense.

The only crossover any of them have is that Harlequins have two shuriken weapons and a power sword like CWE and they all get Lightning Fast Reactions. That's literally it.

Meanwhile, the Marine consolidation was done because they were printing the exact same datasheets for units, weapons and stratagems in multiple different books which also meant these separate things had to be re-printed and constantly updated separately.
   
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Breton wrote:
The ATV is how old now? less than a week, barely 6 days? Someone already decided it had to be nerfed because it gets 6 bolter shots and 2 Melta shots for ~80 points. For the roughly the same points you can get 1.5 Attack bikes that get 6 bolter shots and 3 Melta shots. You can also get a Tornado with 6 Assault Cannon shots and 2 Multi Melta shots. How many games do you think the ATV has had so far? How much thought do you think went into complaining about it less than a week in while ignoring models with 20 years of history under their belts? How much of that thought was anything but "Its New, Its Marine, Nerf it"?
Well said.

As someone who plays virtually every army in the game I'm tired of people trying to make it out like Marine players are the bad guy, and that we deserve every nerf we get. I said it a few weeks ago that the attitude of people enjoying any Marine nerf because it's "deserved" is appalling. It's a game, stop being actively excited by the idea of an army you don't play losing something*.

And you're right - we can't know everything about the new units, and it is far too early in this book's life cycle to immediately judge everything as "broken" or whatever. Mathhammer isn't foolproof, and posting pages of long-winded equations whilst going "See???" isn't going to help anyone.





*Unless it's Tau, obviously. Screw the Tau.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/10/16 08:59:01


   
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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Mathhammer isn't foolproof,

*Unless it's Tau, obviously. Screw the Tau.


Nevermind foolproof, its not even attempted. 6 bolter shots and 2 Melta shots for ~80 points is broken and OP. Except it's fairly common, and both of the immediately obvious "competing" units for list space and job role actually do better. There was zero attempt to consider, it was pure knee-jerk reaction.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




I don't think there's much interest in the melta ATV, because you can get the melta elsewhere. Its the onslaught version that's got everyone interested. Its potentially the replacement for aggressors.

For 80 points you are getting a vaguely silly package of dakka, resilience and speed. The only thing potentially holding it back is the lack of core.
   
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UK

Except people aren't comparing the ATV to other Marine units, they're comparing it to other armies equivalents. The fact that it's essentially a better Ork buggy while also being 20 points cheaper is what people have issues with.

Plus the Chief Apothecary interaction has still not been FAQ'd.
   
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 Bosskelot wrote:
Plus the Chief Apothecary interaction has still not been FAQ'd.
Has anything from the new Marine 'Dex been FAQ'd yet?

   
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The ork buggy which directly compares to the melta ATV can jump all over the board though, which kind of is worth 20 points.
On the other hand, the SJD is one of the best ork units right now, so ATVs aren't going to be bad either.

I don't see them being OP though, at least unless there is some synergy I'm missing.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/16 09:24:41


Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
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Tyel wrote:
I don't think there's much interest in the melta ATV, because you can get the melta elsewhere. Its the onslaught version that's got everyone interested. Its potentially the replacement for aggressors.

For 80 points you are getting a vaguely silly package of dakka, resilience and speed. The only thing potentially holding it back is the lack of core.

All quantity turns in to quality at some point. Who knows maybe there are some crazy 30+ melta shots per turn builds no one tried yet, because no one physicaly owns the models.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
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Oh, I missed something pretty essential. ATVs don't give up bring them down unlike all the units they compare to.

They really need to be vehicles...

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/10/16 09:35:56


Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran





Tyel wrote:
I don't think there's much interest in the melta ATV, because you can get the melta elsewhere. Its the onslaught version that's got everyone interested. Its potentially the replacement for aggressors.

For 80 points you are getting a vaguely silly package of dakka, resilience and speed. The only thing potentially holding it back is the lack of core.


That's what I thought! But no, when I pointed out regular bikes were getting Aggressor level firepower. 2 bikers per 40-50ish points, Rapid Fire 2 per bike, 8 shots. per 2 they specifically said it was the quality of shots and the Multimelta. I agree for Melta I'd do Attack Bikes or Tornadoes.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
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Regular Dakkanaut




Marines are good but I wonder if people actually play the game outside their little bubble or see what happens at the events around the world. It is not only marines that have very good competetive lists filled with broken stuff. Sure marines may have more datasheets that are above the average but in 2000pts games it doesnt matter if your best 10k points beat any other factions best 10k points if the top 2k points in both armies are equally good.

Orks, custodes, sisters, ad mech, imperial soup, various chaos combinations and harlequins all seem to be quite fine at the moment. It is not like there are only marines able to compete. If everything marine was as broken as people here on dakka think the top half of any event would be pure marine lists. Even if no marine lists showed up they would still win it just by sitting on someones shelf at home.

Some armies do need some help since they are barely surviving but this marine bashing is getting rediculous.

Cant remember if it was this thread or another that someone says that Mek Gunz shouldnt be used in the discussions since they are expensive as hell and wouldnt be fair. It is a damn ork vehicle. Just take something out of your kitchen or raid your bitz box and put some paint on it if you dont want to pay full price. Or get some recast or toys. √öseless argument because if that was a legit one then no one could hate on eradicators. It is not that eradicators are expensive, you just cant actually go in to a store and even buy them. I am still waiting on my made to order boxes of Indomitus. So since people cant even get them they arent a problem. Ops, forgot, they are marines so ofc they are a problem. My bad.

I actually wish that marines werent getting so many damn rules all the time. I rather be a worse army than having to change stuff all the damn time to make my lists work. Just on Sanguinary Guard alone the best melee weapon loadout have in less than 12months been 4 different set ups due to rules changes. You need 5 each of swords, fists and axes for that but you only get a total of 6 weapons in the damn box. In the same time huge changes have been going on so Sanguinor, Lemartes, Astorath, Mephiston, Libby dread, Sanguinary Priest, JP librarian, phobos librarian, Dante, smash captains, captains and probably some more that have drastically changed in how good they are. As someone who came back to 40k last year and restarted almost completely from scratch with my BA I am so glad I put magnets on almost everything. If I glued stuff on things would change faster than the super glue could dry. Too bad Death Company is the only unit I did not put magnets on and now all those damn Bolter + Chain Sword guys arent a thing anymore. And right now I am venting here on dakka instead of painting the incursors in front of me that I need to paint up because last week my scouts stopped being troops. I should have picked up Tau or something..... Sure my army would suck but atleast it would be a bit more consistent in doing so.

My club mate who started ultramarines and 40k last year have all but given up on the game when he found out he needed to buy his third codex space marine in just a little over a year. He is mostly playing Middle Earth or Bolt Action now. I have ~50 Rivendell Elves ordered so will propably join him in middle earth.


   
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 Bosskelot wrote:
Except people aren't comparing the ATV to other Marine units, they're comparing it to other armies equivalents. The fact that it's essentially a better Ork buggy while also being 20 points cheaper is what people have issues with.

Plus the Chief Apothecary interaction has still not been FAQ'd.


But it's the "biker" keyword that makes it silly. Apothecary is the most obvious. Access to the Ravenwing 4++ on command (in combination with the Apothecary) is another one. Not bleeding Bring it Down Secondaries like Ork Buggies, Ridgerunners, etc.. .

If they were vehicles, they'd still be efficient little buggies, but the keyword change alone would kill a lot of abuse.
   
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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I like how Centurions were singled out.

Do their arms ever get tired swinging that pendulum?


I have never owned a Centurion kit, and until that box comes with free strippers and booze for a year- I won't get one.
When it does- I'll... kitbash it into something else or something. Centurions are like that cousin that got a full ride-scholarship and walked onto a six-figure salary right out of college, but he's absolutely repulsive to everyone and you only acknowlege him because your dad said you should go have a beer with him so he doesn't feel left out.

Mob Rule is not a rule. 
   
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 Adeptus Doritos wrote:


I have never owned a Centurion kit, and until that box comes with free strippers and booze for a year- I won't get one.
When it does- I'll... kitbash it into something else or something. Centurions are like that cousin that got a full ride-scholarship and walked onto a six-figure salary right out of college, but he's absolutely repulsive to everyone and you only acknowlege him because your dad said you should go have a beer with him so he doesn't feel left out.


I think you're confusing Centurions with those fugly Terminators.

Centurions are wicked cool models.
   
 
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