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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

 Xenomancers wrote:
I literally just did the math and gave you the results.
120 x 2/3 = 80
80 x 2/3 = 53 1/3
53 1/3 x 1/3 = 17 2/3

9 dead intercessors. Without even using the goff trait or a nob upgrade. Just the +1 str stratagem which is basically auto include.


Okay, so let's look at 13 Assault Intercessors (247pts, since 30 Boyz is 240pts), in Assault doctrine.

52 attacks, 34.67 hits, 17.335 wounds, 11.55 unsaved. It's not just raw number of attacks- Marines have a significant bonus in AP.

Then they fight twice because it's bAsIcAlLy An AuToInClUdE and do another 11.55 unsaved wounds.

So that's just over 23 wounds, versus just under 18 for the Boyz. Assault Intercessors win.

Let's take away stratagems for both sides because it's obvious goalpost-shifting. The Boyz are now doing 13.33 wounds, while the Intercessors are doing 11.55. So the Boyz have a very mild advantage in raw damage output- far from the double you claimed. I'll take back my previous claim that the Intercessors win out- that was based on an analysis with the Boyz getting 3 attacks rather than 4, which obviously isn't fair.

But do you really feel that it's honest to say Orks do twice as much damage per point and then back it up with assuming Orks have a stratagem and Marines don't, that the Marines don't have access to their basic army-wide rule, and ultimately find that the Orks are doing significantly less than double the damage anyways?

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/04/16 18:43:04


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Xenomancers wrote:
 Charistoph wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
And of course we're also assuming that the pistol/ccw unit with T-shirt saves doesn't get decimated before succeeding the charge roll. With 11 casualties on a 30 man squad the unit of 19 dudes will likely get 30ish attacks on the charge.

Yeah, because those Boyz were I2, and almost everyone else was I3 or greater, with the noted Astartes being I4. It was made even lower when Overwatch was introduced to lose out on 2-3 more.
LOL Orks doubled their imitative on the charge and marines had 1 freaking attack in these editions - pretty sure orks had 3 with cc weapons. Orks even did more ranged damage too because they had assault weapons with 2 shots and rapid fire 24" weapons were ultra terrible. 2 shots on 5's to hit is always better than 1 shot on 3's to hit.

Just stop. You are just wrong if you think a a tactical marine was useful. They were avoided like the plague for a reason - literally terrible unit. This has literally been an omnipresent complaint from all marine players.

Right now. With marines having a 9th edd codex to an orks 8th edition codex it is a really unfair comparison and I agree a tactical marine is a better choice compared to a boy atm. Yet orks still do way more damage per point "on paper" ... That can not be disregarded. This unit can literally deep strike charge turn 1 and obliterate almost any unit in the game that has no 2+ save with just average rolls. A tactical squad can't do that.


Yes, and on paper a SAG can inflict 72dmg in a single turn. You seem hell bent on focusing on the theoretical 72 rather than its average of 2-3dmg a turn. You will notice when I talk about Space Marines and Orkz I always use averages, there is a reason for that. If you want to be ridiculous about it, 10 Intercessors have the capacity to kill 30 orkz in a single shooting phase. Its highly unlikely bordering on the impossible, but still completely possible.

30 boyz is 240pts. If they da Jump they are using the Weirdboyz power, so more points. So off the bat you are already over 300pts committed to this action. 30 boyz "Da Jumped" into charge range is 9' away, 30 boyz can not all get 9' away unless your opponent is a muppet and leaves a valuable target completely and utterly exposed. The likelihood of getting that boyz unit into CC is relatively low, like 27-28% low. With ere we go its higher, but still below 50%. Assuming you actually get the 9+ and get the charge off, you will likely only get at the most 15-20 boyz into CC, Assuming no overwatch because why not even though they are likely the only unit charging this turn. that is 60-80 attacks for 40 to 53 hits, 20-26.5 wounds and against a 3+ save that is 6-8 dmg. OR 3-4 dead Marines. So when you say they will wipe out any unit that isn't 2+ what you meant to say is they will wipe out any unit that isn't 2+ and only has 3-4 models. And theoretically, if you get all 30 boyz into CC thats 120 attacks, 80 hits, 40 wounds and against a 3+ save 13.3 dmg or 6-7 dead Tactical Marines ON AVERAGE which just to remind you
This unit can literally deep strike charge turn 1 and obliterate almost any unit in the game that has no 2+ save with just average rolls. A tactical squad can't do that.
And of course if the unit fails its charge...they are dead without a doubt the following turn.


 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 catbarf wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
I literally just did the math and gave you the results.
120 x 2/3 = 80
80 x 2/3 = 53 1/3
53 1/3 x 1/3 = 17 2/3

9 dead intercessors. Without even using the goff trait or a nob upgrade. Just the +1 str stratagem which is basically auto include.


Okay, so let's look at 13 Assault Intercessors (247pts, since 30 Boyz is 240pts), in Assault doctrine.

52 attacks, 34.67 hits, 17.335 wounds, 11.55 unsaved. It's not just raw number of attacks- Marines have a significant bonus in AP.

Then they fight twice because it's bAsIcAlLy An AuToInClUdE and do another 11.55 unsaved wounds.

So that's just over 23 wounds, versus just under 18 for the Boyz. Assault Intercessors win.

Let's take away stratagems for both sides because it's obvious goalpost-shifting. The Boyz are now doing 13.33 wounds, while the Intercessors are doing 11.55. So the Boyz have a very mild advantage in raw damage output- far from the double you claimed. I'll take back my previous claim that the Intercessors win out- that was based on an analysis with the Boyz getting 3 attacks rather than 4, which obviously isn't fair.

But do you really feel that it's honest to say Orks do twice as much damage per point and then back it up with assuming Orks have a stratagem and Marines don't, that the Marines don't have access to their basic army-wide rule, and ultimately find that the Orks are doing significantly less than double the damage anyways?
I thought boys were 7 points not 8. Regardless.The best way to do this would be to just remove 4 orks from the unit.

Orks would do more melee damage even if they cost 10 points. It is basic to be able to figure that. Not suggesting an ork should be 10 points. They have the same number of attacks as an assault intercessor and cost half as much = they do more damage.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
SemperMortis wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 Charistoph wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
And of course we're also assuming that the pistol/ccw unit with T-shirt saves doesn't get decimated before succeeding the charge roll. With 11 casualties on a 30 man squad the unit of 19 dudes will likely get 30ish attacks on the charge.

Yeah, because those Boyz were I2, and almost everyone else was I3 or greater, with the noted Astartes being I4. It was made even lower when Overwatch was introduced to lose out on 2-3 more.
LOL Orks doubled their imitative on the charge and marines had 1 freaking attack in these editions - pretty sure orks had 3 with cc weapons. Orks even did more ranged damage too because they had assault weapons with 2 shots and rapid fire 24" weapons were ultra terrible. 2 shots on 5's to hit is always better than 1 shot on 3's to hit.

Just stop. You are just wrong if you think a a tactical marine was useful. They were avoided like the plague for a reason - literally terrible unit. This has literally been an omnipresent complaint from all marine players.

Right now. With marines having a 9th edd codex to an orks 8th edition codex it is a really unfair comparison and I agree a tactical marine is a better choice compared to a boy atm. Yet orks still do way more damage per point "on paper" ... That can not be disregarded. This unit can literally deep strike charge turn 1 and obliterate almost any unit in the game that has no 2+ save with just average rolls. A tactical squad can't do that.


Yes, and on paper a SAG can inflict 72dmg in a single turn. You seem hell bent on focusing on the theoretical 72 rather than its average of 2-3dmg a turn. You will notice when I talk about Space Marines and Orkz I always use averages, there is a reason for that. If you want to be ridiculous about it, 10 Intercessors have the capacity to kill 30 orkz in a single shooting phase. Its highly unlikely bordering on the impossible, but still completely possible.

30 boyz is 240pts. If they da Jump they are using the Weirdboyz power, so more points. So off the bat you are already over 300pts committed to this action. 30 boyz "Da Jumped" into charge range is 9' away, 30 boyz can not all get 9' away unless your opponent is a muppet and leaves a valuable target completely and utterly exposed. The likelihood of getting that boyz unit into CC is relatively low, like 27-28% low. With ere we go its higher, but still below 50%. Assuming you actually get the 9+ and get the charge off, you will likely only get at the most 15-20 boyz into CC, Assuming no overwatch because why not even though they are likely the only unit charging this turn. that is 60-80 attacks for 40 to 53 hits, 20-26.5 wounds and against a 3+ save that is 6-8 dmg. OR 3-4 dead Marines. So when you say they will wipe out any unit that isn't 2+ what you meant to say is they will wipe out any unit that isn't 2+ and only has 3-4 models. And theoretically, if you get all 30 boyz into CC thats 120 attacks, 80 hits, 40 wounds and against a 3+ save 13.3 dmg or 6-7 dead Tactical Marines ON AVERAGE which just to remind you
This unit can literally deep strike charge turn 1 and obliterate almost any unit in the game that has no 2+ save with just average rolls. A tactical squad can't do that.
And of course if the unit fails its charge...they are dead without a doubt the following turn.


On paper a SAG can do a lot more damage than that. It can do 12 shots with 24 hits with doing 72 mortal wounds and 24x6 damage. OFC that is practically impossible. We were adding up average results though so I am not sure what your arguement is.

There is no world in which and ork boy squad cant out damage even an assault intercessor squad in raw damage. With even marines having a a 9th edd codex with all their new special rules and orks not. You know orks are going to be getting some army wide rule like every 9th edd army has.

You all keep disregarding that.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/16 18:58:59


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
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In My Lab

An Assault Intercessor can do...

4 attacks (5 on Sarge) hitting on a 2+, rerolling, wounding on a 2+ against T4, rerolling, at AP-2, with two hits on a 6 to-hit and AP-3 on a 6 to-wound (possibly to-hit, I am AFB at the moment) with damage 2 on each failed save.

Orks can do 5 attacks (7 on Nob) hitting on a 2+, rerolling, wounding on a 3+ against T4, at AP0, with an extra hit roll on a 6 to-hit, with one damage on each failed save.

Full squad is 190 points vs. 240 points.
20 T4 3+ wounds vs. 31 T4 6+ wounds.
Both can fight twice with a strat.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/16 19:20:07


Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
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 AnomanderRake wrote:
 Charistoph wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
LOL Orks doubled their imitative on the charge and marines had 1 freaking attack in these editions - pretty sure orks had 3 with cc weapons.

Which rule was that again? Fleet of Foot or Furious Charge?

While I never had the 3rd or 4th Ed rulebook, I've had the 5th-7th, and Orks never had that capacity during those times.

Also consider that it was a while before Orks had Stikkbombs as standard...


He's thinking of 4e-vintage Furious Charge granting +1I in addition to +1S. Orks got I3 on the charge, but never better than that. They also had S3 on profile in 4e, so your vast number of Ork attacks got to hit on 4s and wound on 4s into the Marine's 3+ save, so we're still talking an average of ~12 attacks to kill a Marine when charging (~18 if you didn't get the charge).
Orks doubled their initiative by passing a Mob check during 3rd and most of 4th, getting them I 4. (Power Of The Waaaggh. pg. 8 of the 3rd ed codex.) This got Ork Nobs an Initiative of 6 on the charge if they didn't take a Power Klaw. (although most took the Power Klaw anyways.)

Orks had a base of 2 attacks, then +1 for two CC weapons, then another for the charge. 4 Attacks per Slugga Boy. Their Choppas reduced all armor saves to a 4+, even Terminators. Only S3, but they were pretty effing scary. It's why I took lots of Flamers on my Tacs back then.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/16 19:21:37


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
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 Xenomancers wrote:


On paper a SAG can do a lot more damage than that. It can do 12 shots with 24 hits with doing 72 mortal wounds and 24x6 damage. OFC that is practically impossible. We were adding up average results though so I am not sure what your arguement is.

There is no world in which and ork boy squad cant out damage even an assault intercessor squad in raw damage. With even marines having a a 9th edd codex with all their new special rules and orks not. You know orks are going to be getting some army wide rule like every 9th edd army has.

You all keep disregarding that.


The SAG gets D6 shots not 2D6, you are thinking of the relic SAG.

There is no world in which and ork boy squad cant out damage even an assault intercessor squad in raw damage.
...yes, yes there is. its called the real world. Unless you are talking about "RAW" as in "Theoretical" because in the real world you never get 30 boyz into CC, you never get a mob across the board intact, you fail the charge from "Da Jump" about 50% of the time. So in the real world its statistically a lot more likely you get 10 assault intercessors into CC than it is you get 30 boyz...by a wide margin. Its likely that before the 30 orkz get into CC they have suffered at least 11 casualties reducing their # of attacks to 3 rather than 4. And most importantly, its almost assured that when you get the charge off about 1/3rd of your mob won't be able to get into CC because of the new CC rules which favor smaller units and are a direct nerf to horde CC units. You can only ever get 2 rows into combat where as before it was 3.

SO with all of that said, i brought up the SAG's theoretical dmg output to show you how silly it is, and the fact is that 30 boyz are JUST as silly if you think they will be getting all 120 attacks in CC.

Hell, I could have gone a step further and shown you the theoretical dmg output of a Stompa, its in the order of several hundred more than the SAG and guess what? Its arguably the worst unit in the codex

Finally, I am well aware that Orkz don't have a codex yet and Marines do. You might have forgotten how Dakka was filled with people upset that for the 2nd edition in a row, Marines got the vast majority of releases before anyone else got anything. The problem is you seem to think orkz will get a HUGE boost to their units when historically that has not been the case. They actually increased the points on a Stompa in 8th, even though it was unplayable garbage in 7th and was statistically worse than Imperial knights by an order of magnitude. But, you can never tell with GW, maybe this is the Edition where they give orkz the same level of BS broken rules they give Marines. Like Shoot twice Aggressors broken, or MM Eradicators broken or Free razorbacks broken, or Superfriends broken etc etc etc

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
Made in gb
Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot




UK

In many ways the Ork codex (and PA) are fine from many rules perspectives. They're flavourful, fit the character of the army, there's lots of deadliness and interesting builds. There needs to be very few stat changes overall. Mainly it's just points costs that throw a lot of Ork units out of whack. They're a remarkably 9th-ready army as they are.

But one of the changes that does need to be made is just giving Choppas a -1 AP.
   
Made in us
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Annandale, VA

 Xenomancers wrote:
Orks would do more melee damage even if they cost 10 points. It is basic to be able to figure that. Not suggesting an ork should be 10 points. They have the same number of attacks as an assault intercessor and cost half as much = they do more damage.


You keep ignoring that Assault Intercessors have innate AP-1.

And that they have easy access to AP-2.

Those together make a pretty big difference, as borne out by calculations that show that- once again- no, Orks do not inflict twice as much damage point for point. If Boyz were 10pts apiece, then Assault Intercessors with the same number of attacks and the same wound roll but AP-2 in Assault doctrine would be out-damaging them point for point against MEQs. This is basic math.

And we haven't even taken into account that the Boyz only get equivalent attacks per model while at 20+ models- not exactly hard to inflict 10 T4/6+ wounds.

Or that getting 30 Boyz into combat at once is borderline impossible, which means you are either getting a whole unit into combat or getting 4 attacks per model, but not both.

These are the little things that make your statistical conclusions untrue, and your tactical/balance conclusions wildly wrong.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/16 20:27:11


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 catbarf wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Orks would do more melee damage even if they cost 10 points. It is basic to be able to figure that. Not suggesting an ork should be 10 points. They have the same number of attacks as an assault intercessor and cost half as much = they do more damage.


You keep ignoring that Assault Intercessors have innate AP-1.

And that they have easy access to AP-2.

Those together make a pretty big difference, as borne out by calculations that show that- once again- no, Orks do not inflict twice as much damage point for point.

And we haven't even taken into account that the Boyz only get equivalent attacks per model while at 20+ models- not exactly hard to inflict 10 T4/6+ wounds.

Or that getting 30 Boyz into combat at once is borderline impossible, which means you are either getting a whole unit into combat or getting 4 attacks per model, but not both.

These are the little things that make your statistical conclusions untrue, and your tactical/balance conclusions wildly wrong.


I definitely see Boyz getting improvements in their book ( not W2 though ). I wonder what will happen to the Stompa....

   
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Annandale, VA

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I definitely see Boyz getting improvements in their book ( not W2 though ).


I expect an improvement to their innate durability coupled with nerfs to Endless Green Tide and Da Jump. It would fit the pattern in the codices so far of taking away one-trick-pony wombo combos but providing passive buffs to compensate. I don't think GW wants to push them into being glass cannons with AP-1 and no other changes; it doesn't fit their style. But T5 I could see happening.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/16 20:33:25


 
   
Made in us
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 Bosskelot wrote:
In many ways the Ork codex (and PA) are fine from many rules perspectives. They're flavourful, fit the character of the army, there's lots of deadliness and interesting builds. There needs to be very few stat changes overall. Mainly it's just points costs that throw a lot of Ork units out of whack. They're a remarkably 9th-ready army as they are.

But one of the changes that does need to be made is just giving Choppas a -1 AP.


Ehhhhhhh....it's fine from the perspective of being much more usable and functional than previous ork codexes I've played, but the principle problems from the port of 8th over to 9th remain.

1) much like with Guard and GSC, the move to force all weapon upgrades to a factor of 5pts hurts orks. Take their two main specials, the Rokkit and Big Shoota - a big shoota in the hands of a BS5+ ork is approximately equivalent to a heavy stubber in the hands of a guardsman. The stubber was jsut fine as a 2pt upgrade, now it's trash as a 5pt upgrade. A Rokkit, on the other hand, is currently a 10pt upgrade, and suffers from the problem of following the 8th ed paradigm of "weapons cost a certain value of points regardless of who is shooting it"

you can take a rokkit on a tankbusta, who gets massively higher value out of it due to rerolls to hit, or you can take it on anything else, where it is overpriced.

2) the gulf between 'worthwhile, good at their job' units and 'not optimal' units is pretty vast. competitive lists exist, but tons of extremely iconic units like Nobz, Warbikes, Killa Kanz, Trukks, Battlewagons, dreads, stompas etc are just terrible. Ask your average ork player how much they enjoy feeling like to kill any kind of hard target they need to bring a stationary napoleonic cannon line of 60$ mek gunz because other options like Lootas and Gunwagons are 1/2 or less as good at trying to do the exact same thing.

3) Much like how marines 2.0 brute-forced marines into competitiveness by slapping ridiculously sloppy blanket upgrades onto them like a fat white dude on crack slapping flex tape onto a gushing leak, Orks' PA content acts as a HUGE crutch for a ton of ork units making them go from aggressively mediocre to really irritating to play against.

GW has moved away from using the CP currency system to purchase permanent upgrades for units because it tends to be a way to effectively sneak hidden power into your list when your stratagems are gakky, and Orks are now an even more extreme version of that than marines used to be with zany chapter master shenanigans. Your average ork list spends a CP on a kustom job for its skrapjets to make them worthwhile, a CP on a kustom job for a battlewagon to make it worthwhile, a couple CP on a warboss and weirdboy to make them worthwhile, and probably has 5 or 6 left to play with at the start of the game. Stratagems, stratagems everywhere, and not a point to sink.

4) theyre also just really fiddly and honestly not all that fun to play now. GW has decided to make the 'buckets of dice' and the 'buckets of models' and the 'buckets of fiddly-ass rerolls and extra rolls and janky gak' factions ALL THE SAME FACTION. Just resolving the shooting from my Flash Gitz I gotta roll the hits, then reroll 1 die for the ammo runt, then roll the sixes into DDD, then roll to wound, roll to save, roll to see if Gun Crazy Show-Offs goes off, resolve all those hits rerolls wound rolls and saves if it does, and then turn to my opponent and go 'ok. That's the FIRST five-man squad....' or for each individual Smasha Gun in my Cheeky Zoggerz detachment, I have to roll a d3 for shots, roll to hit, add DDD extra shots, reroll all the ones, add more DDD if I rerolled into sixes, then take each hit and roll 2d6 against the target's toughness to wound, then roll for damage after that.

For each.

Individual.

35 point gun.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
So I'll 100% grant that orks, competitively, are just fine. I just think they need some big overhauls in stripping out the obnoxious one-trick pony gimmick crutches and putting back in consistent, easier to play usefulness.

Take out the FLamin' headbutt, the double or triple attacking killa klaw big boss, the Da Jump turn 1 charge, the whole unit of double fighting Korkscrew skrapjets, and bring other shooting options into line of the efficiency of mek gunz.

And please god just make Dakkadakkadakka an autohit on a 6. We don't need a doctrines-equivalent that can be it, it's fine, just make it easier to resolve ork shooting please lord.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/16 20:46:35


"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
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Astonished of Heck

 catbarf wrote:
 Charistoph wrote:
To be fair, I do think that he was talking about Tacticals in much earlier editions

That part of the discussion stemmed from Xeno claiming that Orks currently, in comparison to Marines, make up for much lower durability per point by having double (!) the damage output per point. Which is nonsense.

When he was responding to me about the Initative of Orks, I sincerely doubt it had anything to do with the current system.

Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
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 Charistoph wrote:
 catbarf wrote:
 Charistoph wrote:
To be fair, I do think that he was talking about Tacticals in much earlier editions

That part of the discussion stemmed from Xeno claiming that Orks currently, in comparison to Marines, make up for much lower durability per point by having double (!) the damage output per point. Which is nonsense.

When he was responding to me about the Initative of Orks, I sincerely doubt it had anything to do with the current system.


It never has anything to do with the current reality, it's always ALWAYS diversionary performance art. The Gish Gallop, 40k edition. Just stop engaging, the guy's posting nonsense, best hundred points in the game and all that.
   
Made in ca
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Vancouver, BC

Realistically, if the DE codex manages to take a tier-1 competitive ranking as many predict they will, this will threaten to push even DA builds down into tier-2 status. Is a widely played gatekeeper that occasionally wins tournaments still a problem?
   
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 Canadian 5th wrote:
Realistically, if the DE codex manages to take a tier-1 competitive ranking as many predict they will, this will threaten to push even DA builds down into tier-2 status. Is a widely played gatekeeper that occasionally wins tournaments still a problem?

We are literally 4 codices into the edition. We already know Power Creep is going to set in, but trying to guess how much this early is just an mental task we can't do. Based on the weapon previews for AdMech though we're already heading in the same exact direction 8th did though.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Canadian 5th wrote:
Realistically, if the DE codex manages to take a tier-1 competitive ranking as many predict they will, this will threaten to push even DA builds down into tier-2 status. Is a widely played gatekeeper that occasionally wins tournaments still a problem?

We are literally 4 codices into the edition. We already know Power Creep is going to set in, but trying to guess how much this early is just an mental task we can't do. Based on the weapon previews for AdMech though we're already heading in the same exact direction 8th did though.

Crons just took top positions (4-1 or better) at major tournaments alongside Salamanders, Blood Angels, and DA. I'm not sure Codex creep is as bad as people claim it is. What I am sure of is that it's bringing the floor up in a way that makes anything that can't heavily specialize into a specific role tougher to play.
   
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 Canadian 5th wrote:
Realistically, if the DE codex manages to take a tier-1 competitive ranking as many predict they will, this will threaten to push even DA builds down into tier-2 status. Is a widely played gatekeeper that occasionally wins tournaments still a problem?
DE IMO will not be a T1 army. Some units got much needed improvements but I don't think anything makes up for the loss of army wide FNP.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
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Italy

I think drukhari are very solid, definitely top 6-7, but not among the top 3. As always lots of players, mostly imperium ones, overreacted.

Orks 7000
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 Xenomancers wrote:
DE IMO will not be a T1 army. Some units got much needed improvements but I don't think anything makes up for the loss of army wide FNP.

"It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore."

I'll take your prediction with a grain of salt...

 Blackie wrote:
I think drukhari are very solid, definitely top 6-7, but not among the top 3. As always lots of players, mostly imperium ones, overreacted.

Goonhammer currently has 5 armies listed in tier 1. It doesn't take you being wrong by much for DE to fit into that group.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/04/19 17:36:44


 
   
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 Canadian 5th wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
DE IMO will not be a T1 army. Some units got much needed improvements but I don't think anything makes up for the loss of army wide FNP.

"It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore."

I'll take your prediction with a grain of salt...

 Blackie wrote:
I think drukhari are very solid, definitely top 6-7, but not among the top 3. As always lots of players, mostly imperium ones, overreacted.

Goonhammer currently has 5 armies listed in tier 1. It doesn't take you being wrong by much for DE to fit into that group.
This is a different kind of prediction. There is no real way to predict what GW will do. It is clear that DA have some rules that are too good. I am not even gonna debate that - GW made a mistake - literally every person I talk to in real life agree - DA IC rules are 100% busted and shouldn't exist. On DE - addition of core restrictions and loss of FNP are massive hits to DE - meanwhile they got a few beast mode HQ options that kill way more than their worth in a turn and a few weapons and units got buffed (most were unplayable before like helions and raiders). Also some points values are clearly off...like revers for example. In my eyes the army didn't get a lot better - it just got a lot more playable options.


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 Blackie wrote:
I think drukhari are very solid, definitely top 6-7, but not among the top 3. As always lots of players, mostly imperium ones, overreacted.
Top 3 are most certainly not even 9th edd armies right now. Busted PA nonsense.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/19 18:49:21


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DE has been placing pretty high since the dex. Some of that is people getting used to playing against it. Some might be the crazy succubus.

It seems unlikely for them to do poorly despite the loss of FNP.

   
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Half this thread is just people trying to convince xeno to read their numbers, xeno doesn't read their numbers and instead makes his own.

Did everyone forget how Squigbuggies and Stompas are the MOST POWERFUL units in the Ork codex?

Stop trying to argue with the man and instead just smile and wave.
   
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As someone who was against DE being too strong at first, I have to eat crow on that prediction here. DE have been winning tournaments left and right, including the art of war mini tournament. I’ve yet to see an at all competitive DE list lose to marines in any Batrep, or heard of a SM player winning against DE. DG the army many predicted would get crushed by DE seem to be doing the best against them with a slightly below 50% win rate. The army by all metrics appears to OP, thanks to highly undercosted characters, free cult of strife rules, and raiders being undercosted.

Once people realized that it is better to cut fire support options in favor of more Wyches and incubi in boats, it’s become quite apparent the army is too good.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/20 00:20:06


 
   
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 Daedalus81 wrote:
DE has been placing pretty high since the dex. Some of that is people getting used to playing against it. Some might be the crazy succubus.

It seems unlikely for them to do poorly despite the loss of FNP.


So they did in 8th, despite their codex wasn't OP at all. They're just the new thing in town, and since they're anti meta (aka anti SM) people need to adapt. Just like they needed to adapth when drukhari's 8th codex was released. Not a big deal.


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 Xenomancers wrote:

Top 3 are most certainly not even 9th edd armies right now. Busted PA nonsense.


Some SM and Deathguard are pretty close to those top 3 if we assume they're not included in the top 3 factions. Much closer than drukhari.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/20 10:54:48


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 Blackie wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
DE has been placing pretty high since the dex. Some of that is people getting used to playing against it. Some might be the crazy succubus.

It seems unlikely for them to do poorly despite the loss of FNP.


So they did in 8th, despite their codex wasn't OP at all. They're just the new thing in town, and since they're anti meta (aka anti SM) people need to adapt. Just like they needed to adapth when drukhari's 8th codex was released. Not a big deal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Xenomancers wrote:

Top 3 are most certainly not even 9th edd armies right now. Busted PA nonsense.


Some SM and Deathguard are pretty close to those top 3 if we assume they're not included in the top 3 factions. Much closer than drukhari.
I'd agree with that - space marines/DG are more powerful than DE.


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 Eonfuzz wrote:
Half this thread is just people trying to convince xeno to read their numbers, xeno doesn't read their numbers and instead makes his own.

Did everyone forget how Squigbuggies and Stompas are the MOST POWERFUL units in the Ork codex?

Stop trying to argue with the man and instead just smile and wave.

You really are dense. My statement is fact. Ork boys do more melee damage by a factor of 2-3 between Intercessors even when you factor in stratagems. Disprove me. Or Go away. You can't argue with facts. This is why they are included in a highly competitive build which whens events.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/20 14:01:31


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 Blackie wrote:
So they did in 8th, despite their codex wasn't OP at all. They're just the new thing in town, and since they're anti meta (aka anti SM) people need to adapt. Just like they needed to adapth when drukhari's 8th codex was released. Not a big deal.


That's a different beast, I think. 8th DE was soup and cherry picking. This is them all on their own.

   
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Nah, when thir codex was released all the reviews put them top tiers. Also on Goonhammer if I remeber correctly. And most of those soups were actually full drukhari lists with a single crafworlds psyker. Drukhari were top tiers for a few months, then remained competitive through soups.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/20 15:16:58


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 Blackie wrote:
Nah, when thir codex was released all the reviews put them top tiers. Also on Goonhammer if I remeber correctly. And most of those soups were actually full drukhari lists with a single crafworlds psyker. Drukhari were top tiers for a few months, then remained competitive through soups.


It's a pretty complex history, because you have to unravel Ynnari as well as CW spells being able to affect them - both went away at some point. There was still a lot of useful things in the DE book like Grots and Dissies, but the lists so far in 9th have quite a bit of variety compared to lists of yore.

   
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 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
Nah, when thir codex was released all the reviews put them top tiers. Also on Goonhammer if I remeber correctly. And most of those soups were actually full drukhari lists with a single crafworlds psyker. Drukhari were top tiers for a few months, then remained competitive through soups.


It's a pretty complex history, because you have to unravel Ynnari as well as CW spells being able to affect them - both went away at some point. There was still a lot of useful things in the DE book like Grots and Dissies, but the lists so far in 9th have quite a bit of variety compared to lists of yore.

The top list was Ravager dessie spam + scourge haywire with a doom psyker. It was a very powerful list. Taking advantage of many under costed models but mainly the dessie. It was very good until it got nerfed where doom did not affect DE. I did it with flayed skull/ Most did it with BH for the 6+ FNP. You could also include an eldar airwing - many ways you could go with that - dessie flyers or take hemlocks for more psychic.

The list was not very good without doom though. DE almost worthless as Ynnari...cause they lose power from pain.

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 Xenomancers wrote:

You really are dense. My statement is fact. Ork boys do more melee damage by a factor of 2-3 between Intercessors even when you factor in stratagems. Disprove me. Or Go away. You can't argue with facts. This is why they are included in a highly competitive build which whens events.
Pretty sure it's been shown that your math is either wrong or disingenuous at this point.

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