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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Daemonettes would be nice at 110 but even at 120 they are very solid. So much faster than bloodletters and weight of attacks makes them a threat to everything up to T7.

This probably isn't happening but I really hope they do something about Nurgle. The whole obsec superiority gimmick hasn't at all worked out and they would need some serious points drops to be functional.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/11/20 14:54:27


 
   
Made in ca
Nihilistic Necron Lord




The best State-Texas

 p5freak wrote:
Flamers going up by 10 points, and everything else staying the same, is not going to break the army. If they reduce other units points people might still be able to take as many flamers as before. Troop choices are overpriced by 10-20 points, plaguebearers and daemonettes for 150 and 130 is insane, those should be -20.


From a competitive point of view? Yes, the flamers going up a significant amount would pretty much break the back of the army if changes to bring up some of the more lackluster datasheets are not done. The vast majority of the datasheets in the army are mediocre to weak, and once the flamer crutch is removed it'll become even more apparent.

Like what happened with Nurgle? It feels like some rule was yanked away from them at the last minute.

4000+
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Thousand Sons 4000+
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Made in gb
Hungry Ork Hunta Lying in Wait





 Sasori wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
Flamers going up by 10 points, and everything else staying the same, is not going to break the army. If they reduce other units points people might still be able to take as many flamers as before. Troop choices are overpriced by 10-20 points, plaguebearers and daemonettes for 150 and 130 is insane, those should be -20.


From a competitive point of view? Yes, the flamers going up a significant amount would pretty much break the back of the army if changes to bring up some of the more lackluster datasheets are not done. The vast majority of the datasheets in the army are mediocre to weak, and once the flamer crutch is removed it'll become even more apparent.

Like what happened with Nurgle? It feels like some rule was yanked away from them at the last minute.


Rumour is they had 5+ FNP until its very last iteration before being sent to print.

And it bloody feels like it.
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

 Sasori wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
Flamers going up by 10 points, and everything else staying the same, is not going to break the army. If they reduce other units points people might still be able to take as many flamers as before. Troop choices are overpriced by 10-20 points, plaguebearers and daemonettes for 150 and 130 is insane, those should be -20.


From a competitive point of view? Yes, the flamers going up a significant amount would pretty much break the back of the army if changes to bring up some of the more lackluster datasheets are not done. The vast majority of the datasheets in the army are mediocre to weak, and once the flamer crutch is removed it'll become even more apparent.


No, reducing the number of flamers from 18 to 12 (~10 pt. increase ppm) wouldnt break the army. Even competitive gamers acknowledge that flamers are the best unit of the army, and are criminally undercosted.
   
Made in us
Did Fulgrim Just Behead Ferrus?




Noctis Labyrinthus

 p5freak wrote:

No, reducing the number of flamers from 18 to 12 (~10 pt. increase ppm) wouldnt break the army. Even competitive gamers acknowledge that flamers are the best unit of the army, and are criminally undercosted.


And yet despite that pure Daemons lists still aren't tearing up the top tables. Almost like despite having one of the best datasheets in the game at the moment the majority of the rest of the codex is mediocre to weak, like the post you responded to was saying. Maybe work on your reading comprehension there friend.
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

I disagree that the rest is mediocre or weak. We will see how daemons perform once flamers get their points increase.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

 p5freak wrote:
I disagree that the rest is mediocre or weak. We will see how daemons perform once flamers get their points increase.
I play Nurgle.
My section, at the very least, is pretty damn mediocre.

Edit: And if, with what's considered one of if not the best single unit in the game, Daemons are mid-ranking in competitive spheres... What do you think would happen if that datasheet is nerfed and the rest isn't buffed?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/11/24 18:26:02


Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Daemons lists constructed with the best datasheets are likely upper mid tier without flamers. They are certainly not weak, unless your definition of weak is "doesn't win multiple GTs every weekend."

What is weak though, is internal balance. Most options in the elites/fast attack/heavy support slots are pretty bad. Nurgle sucks. Overall it isn't the worst book, but it's definitely a little disappointing next to most of the recent codexes (elves, clowns, bugs, custodes, both flavors of knights, dwarves probably)
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

 JNAProductions wrote:
I play Nurgle.
My section, at the very least, is pretty damn mediocre.


I agree with that, but nurgle isnt the rest of the army.


 JNAProductions wrote:

Edit: And if, with what's considered one of if not the best single unit in the game, Daemons are mid-ranking in competitive spheres... What do you think would happen if that datasheet is nerfed and the rest isn't buffed?


Im pretty sure nurgle will get point drops.
   
Made in us
Sneaky Lictor




 p5freak wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
I play Nurgle.
My section, at the very least, is pretty damn mediocre.


I agree with that, but nurgle isnt the rest of the army.


 JNAProductions wrote:

Edit: And if, with what's considered one of if not the best single unit in the game, Daemons are mid-ranking in competitive spheres... What do you think would happen if that datasheet is nerfed and the rest isn't buffed?


Im pretty sure nurgle will get point drops.


Points drops wont help Nurgle unless we get to the point where you are paying so little points per wound that they can break the game just by existing. I don't really think anything short of a complete rewrite is going to save the Nurgle portion of the dex.

I honestly think that Khorne/Tzeentch will find some success even without flamers but I don't really see Slaanesh going anywhere and Nurgle certainly will remain in the pits.
   
Made in us
Reading a Book in the Tower of Prospero





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

If the GD of Nurgle and Beasts of Nurgles see a bit of points drop, I can see some play.

Nurgle SoulGrinders are pretty effective for their cost. (desperately trying to run 3 of them).

6000
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4000

∞ Chaos Daemons and CSM


 
   
Made in gb
Tzeentch Veteran Marine with Psychic Potential




dorset

Well, after a few weekends of frantic assembly & painting, I have my 1st game with the deamons this Wednesday against blood angels. It will be a 1k game, I'm bringing a bloodthirster, bloodmaster, 2 squads of bloodletters, a trio of bloodcrushers and 2 5 hound packs to round out the points.


I'm not exactly sure what hes bringing, as it's a tourney list hes been tweaking, but should be dante, a chief apothecary, a load of death company and golden guards, either some attack bikes or melta speeders, and some assault intercessors for troop tax.


All in all, it should be a straight melee fight for the centre. Beyond trying to arrange that I get the charges and not him, what advice can you give? I'm planning on keeping one lot of letters in reserve, but not sure what else to try and deep strike.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/11/28 15:33:17


Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.
"Tommy", Rudyard Kipling
Exporitor force kappa-Tercia 500pts Coven of XVth 1500pts
The Blades of Ruin 1,250pts Watch Company Rho 1000pts
 
   
Made in us
Servoarm Flailing Magos






Played in a small 6-man, 1500pts tournament this weekend.

Thousand sons + Tzeentch demons (fluxmaster + exalted flamer + 4/5 flamer squads)

flamers are sooo fething dumb lmao, first time i brought that many and they just killed everything they shot at, infantry, light vehicle, heavy vehicle, doesnt matter. Deepstrike and kill
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Triple GUO + triple Nurgle soul grinder went 4-1 at a 65-player event. Any hardcore Nurgle players here have the models to try this list? I don't have the soul grinders unfortunately, but if I did it definitely seems like it'd be worth a try.
   
Made in us
Sneaky Lictor




artific3r wrote:
Triple GUO + triple Nurgle soul grinder went 4-1 at a 65-player event. Any hardcore Nurgle players here have the models to try this list? I don't have the soul grinders unfortunately, but if I did it definitely seems like it'd be worth a try.


I am only missing one GUO to run that list and I have no desire what so ever to do so. I can see why it won but it won by what I said earlier, your points per wounds and merely existing on the table. You pretty much don't have to do much other than move your units into position then challenge your opponent to chew through all the wounds.

I wonder if the first place Necron list encountered this daemon list cause I think that that particular list would chew through the 5+ save of the GUO/Soul Grinders. On that note, not to belittle anyone who played in the tournament, but it does not appear that the tournament was that cut throat. Looking at the top list it is a lot less sweaty than I am used to, so I wonder how that list would fair against a bit more powerful list. I know from my games that it is not uncommon to lose a GUO a turn as long as my opponent focuses fires.
   
Made in us
Reading a Book in the Tower of Prospero





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

Yeah, triple GUO seems a bit... much.

I'm trying to fit in 3x Nurgle Soulgrinder, 'Thirster, LoC and Be'lakor in one list.

The ol' Monster Bash with 6 running up the table.


6000
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!

4000

∞ Chaos Daemons and CSM


 
   
Made in gb
Tzeentch Veteran Marine with Psychic Potential




dorset

well, FINALLY got to play my deamons into blood angels. It was a 1k game on min size board, very intense melee game.

i threw a bloodthrister (relic great axe, woundgate, 5+++ WLT), bloodmaster, 2 squads of bloodletters, a trio of crushers and 8 hounds at a blood angels force of dante, a chief apothecary, 7 sang guard, 10 death coy, a melta speeder and a quintet of assault intercessors.

I won 1st turn, bungled the move phase by blocking my crushers out of a charge with my hounds, and the thirstier failed its charge, but the hounds made a long charge into his speeder....only for his sang guard to intervene, and wipe them out for the loss a single dude who was promtly healed by the apothecary. his turn 1, he surrounds the now isolated thrister, and via a mix of melta shooting and power weapon melee, manages to hurt it badly, but the woundgate and FNP keep it alive long enough its return attacks wipe his sang guard off the table. the death coy managed at the same time to charge and curb stomp by crushers.

my turn 2, I get the thrister into his assault intercessors on his home point (and promptly removed them), and all 20 of my bloodletters, supported by the bloodmaster, were able to charge and delete the death coy for acceptable losses on his interupt. his turn 2, he charges Dante into the badly wounded (5 left) thirstier, but a combo of demonic saves, FNP and plain luck see his attacks completely bounce off the deamon...who turns him into paste on his go. at this point he concedes, at the start of my turn 3.

my thoughts:

for a first run out, I'm very happy with the results, though I recognise this was basically a perfect match up for me: a melee enemy on a small board. my hounds and crushers didn't do much, but thats partly my bad positioning (1st time playing a melee army, so getting the hang of planning the moves), and partly just the enemy getting a vote, so i will reserve judgement of them until they have done more than "die".

The bloodletters, though, really impressed me for line infantry. They are downright nasty when thrown into even elite infantry. the Thrister was a total blender of a Big Guy, and im very happy with his performance this game, though even at 1k he got mauled, and i'd be suprised if he'd lasted another round in a 2k game.


on a bigger board i'd have had a lot more problems, i think. the very compact nature suited both armies, but since he had more shooting, it was to my advantage to make it a mainly melee game. at 2k on a 4x6 board i would have to shove a lot more into deep strike to protect it.

Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.
"Tommy", Rudyard Kipling
Exporitor force kappa-Tercia 500pts Coven of XVth 1500pts
The Blades of Ruin 1,250pts Watch Company Rho 1000pts
 
   
Made in ca
Lethal Lhamean






Venice, Florida

xerxeskingofking wrote:
on a bigger board i'd have had a lot more problems, i think. the very compact nature suited both armies, but since he had more shooting, it was to my advantage to make it a mainly melee game. at 2k on a 4x6 board i would have to shove a lot more into deep strike to protect it.

I find the general smaller boards and line of sight blocking terrain of 9th to generally favor assault armies, so have found general good things for my daemons (I run mono Slaanesh). The biggest advantage of deep strike, in my opinion, is helping your daemons drop in on objectives and to harass back line stuff.

My biggest struggle has been trying to fit in enough Keepers and Princes. I miss the days of princes in the heavy slots.

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Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






London

Not really a tactics question but anyway, I've built up my Khorne contingent a bit, now have 30x Bloodletters, 3x Bloodcrushers, 10x Hounds, a Herald and Ka'Bandha standing in as a Bloodthirster.

Anyone discovered any good painting schemes for the Khorne stuff, particularly looking for a quick and effective scheme for the Bloodletters.
   
Made in de
Been Around the Block




I have just done the base layer on my Bloodletters: Red Basecoat and then Airbrushed a spot on each chest and face in a color that is unique to each unit: One White, one blue, one Armadillo etc.. This way I hope that it will be easier to keep track of them as each unit is visually unique within the army. I also plan to tie them together by using the same horns and blades
   
Made in de
Tzeentch Veteran Marine with Psychic Potential




dorset

sorry, next random rules question:

skrabrand's "rage embodied" aura ability, that affects EVERYONE within range, yes? The description says "While a unit is within 6" of this model: ", which i would understand to affect enemy as well as freindly. seems cool and flavoursome, just checking.

Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.
"Tommy", Rudyard Kipling
Exporitor force kappa-Tercia 500pts Coven of XVth 1500pts
The Blades of Ruin 1,250pts Watch Company Rho 1000pts
 
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

Yes, skarbrand buffs everyone, even enemy models. You are actually helping your opponent defeating you.
   
Made in fi
5th God of Chaos (O'rly?)





xerxeskingofking wrote:
sorry, next random rules question:

skrabrand's "rage embodied" aura ability, that affects EVERYONE within range, yes? The description says "While a unit is within 6" of this model: ", which i would understand to affect enemy as well as freindly. seems cool and flavoursome, just checking.


Correct.

2nd game with daemons I had skarbrand appear from reserves for nice easy charge of 6" to blob of 10 death guard terminators...And failed the charge.

Needless to say with extra 20 attack rolls or so(1 attack=2 hit roll) skarbrand didn't last for long

Generally it's never been issue because enemies around him tends to be quite dead but once in a while it pops up.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/12/22 10:30:03


2022 painted/bought: 681/867 
   
Made in us
Sneaky Lictor




So with the new Arks of Omen detachment, which is just so great for the health of the game, I have been considering an army of Beast of Nurgle. I can get 18 Beast of Nurgle in a list at 1440, leaving 560 left over for a mandatory HQ and possibly some Nurglings just for some board presence. The entire point of the army would be that it exist, which is horrible unfun design but I wonder how it might do. Just plop down some Beast on objectives, use some of the HQs to remove ObSec from my opponents units.

Beast are expensive as hell but they have some damage potential with mortal wound output and 18 of them would be a task for most any army to chew through.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

Arbiter_Shade wrote:
So with the new Arks of Omen detachment, which is just so great for the health of the game, I have been considering an army of Beast of Nurgle. I can get 18 Beast of Nurgle in a list at 1440, leaving 560 left over for a mandatory HQ and possibly some Nurglings just for some board presence. The entire point of the army would be that it exist, which is horrible unfun design but I wonder how it might do. Just plop down some Beast on objectives, use some of the HQs to remove ObSec from my opponents units.

Beast are expensive as hell but they have some damage potential with mortal wound output and 18 of them would be a task for most any army to chew through.
Rule of Three?

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in gb
Cackling Chaos Conscript





Arbiter_Shade wrote:
So with the new Arks of Omen detachment, which is just so great for the health of the game, I have been considering an army of Beast of Nurgle. I can get 18 Beast of Nurgle in a list at 1440, leaving 560 left over for a mandatory HQ and possibly some Nurglings just for some board presence. The entire point of the army would be that it exist, which is horrible unfun design but I wonder how it might do. Just plop down some Beast on objectives, use some of the HQs to remove ObSec from my opponents units.

Beast are expensive as hell but they have some damage potential with mortal wound output and 18 of them would be a task for most any army to chew through.


You can't play that many beasts, but you bring up a good point. The AoO detachment lets us go nuts with nurglings as objective holding troops as long as we fill the compulsory slots with something else (like beasts of nurgle). you could quite easily take 18 nurgling bases in a game of almost any size as cheap and flexible objective holders and small unit harassers.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

Mad_Proctologist wrote:
Arbiter_Shade wrote:
So with the new Arks of Omen detachment, which is just so great for the health of the game, I have been considering an army of Beast of Nurgle. I can get 18 Beast of Nurgle in a list at 1440, leaving 560 left over for a mandatory HQ and possibly some Nurglings just for some board presence. The entire point of the army would be that it exist, which is horrible unfun design but I wonder how it might do. Just plop down some Beast on objectives, use some of the HQs to remove ObSec from my opponents units.

Beast are expensive as hell but they have some damage potential with mortal wound output and 18 of them would be a task for most any army to chew through.


You can't play that many beasts, but you bring up a good point. The AoO detachment lets us go nuts with nurglings as objective holding troops as long as we fill the compulsory slots with something else (like beasts of nurgle). you could quite easily take 18 nurgling bases in a game of almost any size as cheap and flexible objective holders and small unit harassers.
Yeah, but they're not ObSec and aren't durable.

I used to love Nurglings, but with how much they've been nerfed, I think you're better off taking something fast and ObSec to snag objectives. Maybe one squad of Nurglings to block enemy Infiltrators, if you win the rolloff, but spamming them just doesn't appeal.

Edit: Notably, I still love Nurglings. Just not mechanically-I get excited whenever the little guys do damage.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/12/26 17:18:56


Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Sneaky Lictor




 JNAProductions wrote:
Arbiter_Shade wrote:
So with the new Arks of Omen detachment, which is just so great for the health of the game, I have been considering an army of Beast of Nurgle. I can get 18 Beast of Nurgle in a list at 1440, leaving 560 left over for a mandatory HQ and possibly some Nurglings just for some board presence. The entire point of the army would be that it exist, which is horrible unfun design but I wonder how it might do. Just plop down some Beast on objectives, use some of the HQs to remove ObSec from my opponents units.

Beast are expensive as hell but they have some damage potential with mortal wound output and 18 of them would be a task for most any army to chew through.
Rule of Three?


Don't lob factual statements at me. Yes, I wasn't thinking of the rule of three. Still, at 9 Beast that is a significant block to move. 720 points just leave more room for Nurgle Soulgrinders.
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




There appears to be a number of leaks coming out about the upcoming balance dataslate and points update. Warphammer put out a video (they have been fairly reliable in the past) What is everyone's thoughts so far on the rumours?

Overall I'm not surprised that Flamers are being nerfed, but I am surprised that GW has decided to take their auto-hits. They were the one unit worth overwatching with for Chaos Daemons. I would have preferred either a points increase or changing the number of shots. Basically your 6-man squad now works like a 4-man squad pre-nerf for damage output. That said, I think Flamers are still good.

The speculated points decrease for Nurgle sounds good. It will be interesting to see if it makes them competitive. Beasts of Nurgle are getting a 10pt drop, so are a little more tempting.

It was also suggested that Flesh Hounds are dropping to 15 points per model, which makes them very competitive.

Overall, it sounds like the strong stuff has been nerfed, and the weak stuff has been made cheaper. Hopefully this will improve list variety, and with some luck Nurgle will start to look viable.
   
Made in fi
5th God of Chaos (O'rly?)





Seeing there hasn't been accurate slate leaks before i'm at camp wait and see

2022 painted/bought: 681/867 
   
 
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