Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Any tips on beating Necrons? Playing 2k points, was against 3x Catacomb Barges, 3x full Destroyer squads, 3x5 Immortals with Destroyer Lord and some other things I forget. I was playing with LRC, 2 squads of Terminators (one regular, one Assault), a Redemptor Dread, Helbrecht, Emp Champ, Captain, 2x Lt, 3x5 Crusaders (3x Plasmagun, 2x LC, 1x HB), 3x 5-man Scouts with bolters. I'm considering some Assbacks for a high ROF vs. the Barges shielding. And yeah I know Terminators are suboptimal I just love them and the LRC. It may have just been that he was rolling super hot on Barge shots

Aleister_Dakka wrote:
Any tips on beating Necrons? Playing 2k points, was against 3x Catacomb Barges, 3x full Destroyer squads, 3x5 Immortals with Destroyer Lord and some other things I forget. I was playing with LRC, 2 squads of Terminators (one regular, one Assault), a Redemptor Dread, Helbrecht, Emp Champ, Captain, 2x Lt, 3x5 Crusaders (3x Plasmagun, 2x LC, 1x HB), 3x 5-man Scouts with bolters. I'm considering some Assbacks for a high ROF vs. the Barges shielding. And yeah I know Terminators are suboptimal I just love them and the LRC. It may have just been that he was rolling super hot on Barge shots

It sounds like a pretty fluffy and classic BT list to me! No need to change! Your opponent also plays quite a nice list, but not too overpowered as far as I can tell. I'd advice to try proxying the Redemptor as a Contemptor. I have done this in a few games as I can't stand the extreme weak performance of the Redemptor. The Contemptor, for less points, gets +2', BS/WS 2+, and a 5++, just for some shooting (on 4+ when you move) and 3W that are compensated with a nice invun imo. I removed the missile pod and played the plasma as a melta. I really hate to see my beautifully painted Dreadnought gets annihilated by a few Lasscannon shots from cheap IG units. Keep the list going, and definetly keep the termies rocking!
Cheers

jcd386 wrote:
So, looking at the knight codex...they seem really powerful.

What are you guys looking at in your lists to deal with 3+ knights and still hope to be fairly take all comers (as much as codex SM can)?

... I'm ... bringing a Gallant :/

jcd386 wrote:
So, looking at the knight codex...they seem really powerful.

What are you guys looking at in your lists to deal with 3+ knights and still hope to be fairly take all comers (as much as codex SM can)?

My plan will be to kill their CP battery Troops (if any) and then play objectives, hiding my guys out of LOS as much as possible. Haven't tested it yet, but going to a tourney this weekend with possibly 3 IK players.

Aleister_Dakka wrote:

jcd386 wrote:
So, looking at the knight codex...they seem really powerful.

What are you guys looking at in your lists to deal with 3+ knights and still hope to be fairly take all comers (as much as codex SM can)?

My plan will be to kill their CP battery Troops (if any) and then play objectives, hiding my guys out of LOS as much as possible. Haven't tested it yet, but going to a tourney this weekend with possibly 3 IK players.

Unless they are doing London GT insulation terrain you aint blooking line of sight to a knight with 12 move also they do have some nlos weapons fyi

Ice_can wrote:

Aleister_Dakka wrote:

jcd386 wrote:
So, looking at the knight codex...they seem really powerful.

What are you guys looking at in your lists to deal with 3+ knights and still hope to be fairly take all comers (as much as codex SM can)?

My plan will be to kill their CP battery Troops (if any) and then play objectives, hiding my guys out of LOS as much as possible. Haven't tested it yet, but going to a tourney this weekend with possibly 3 IK players.

Unless they are doing London GT insulation terrain you aint blooking line of sight to a knight with 12 move also they do have some nlos weapons fyi

Using ITC rules where first level of ruins blocks LOS, seems pretty doable I think. My first tourney though, so we'll see.

Aleister_Dakka wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Aleister_Dakka wrote:

jcd386 wrote:
So, looking at the knight codex...they seem really powerful.

What are you guys looking at in your lists to deal with 3+ knights and still hope to be fairly take all comers (as much as codex SM can)?

My plan will be to kill their CP battery Troops (if any) and then play objectives, hiding my guys out of LOS as much as possible. Haven't tested it yet, but going to a tourney this weekend with possibly 3 IK players.

Unless they are doing London GT insulation terrain you aint blooking line of sight to a knight with 12 move also they do have some nlos weapons fyi

Using ITC rules where first level of ruins blocks LOS, seems pretty doable I think. My first tourney though, so we'll see.

Currently building some knights to fight with my ultramarines so trying to think of stuff you should keep in mind, you need to be 6.5 inch up in ruins to not be in melee range, they dont get their invo in CC but arn't slouch's in CC either and can do circa 24+inch charge with 50% chance if built for it.
Also their hight and movement stats could make hiding behind the first floor difficult.

Best of luck and even if your not winning your gaining experience for your next tournament.

I think Smash-captains are a pretty great way to mess up a knight in CC, especially if they're BA. Knight shooting invulns have gotten a huge boost, so CC may now be the way to bring one down nice and quick.

Slammaguinius can nut a Knight from deep strike reserve... pretty good if you ask me.

How does everyone fair against Dark Eldar & Eldar hybrid armies. My buddy plays a ton of wave serpents and ravagers & raiders. The DE ships are like paper, but the eldar ones are such a pain. (Normally -2 to hit due to Eldar trait and advancing) I normally end up needing to charge them, but we have very limited melee options. Do you guys run Vanguard Vets or just let a Captain with a bike or jetpack deal with those pesky flyers?

Hey guys, I've been planning to start my third marine army, and I'm having a tough choice between ultramarines and imperial fists. They both have good value as a gunline, but I'm more intrested about imperial fists, their colour scheme fits well with hawkshroud knights. So, question is, what works with imperial fists? My previous armies are dark angels and space wolves.

Fists should be very shooty to take advantage of their CT (ignore cover).

 Sonminiser wrote:
How does everyone fair against Dark Eldar & Eldar hybrid armies. My buddy plays a ton of wave serpents and ravagers & raiders. The DE ships are like paper, but the eldar ones are such a pain. (Normally -2 to hit due to Eldar trait and advancing) I normally end up needing to charge them, but we have very limited melee options. Do you guys run Vanguard Vets or just let a Captain with a bike or jetpack deal with those pesky flyers?

With my Raven Guard I've had success with a jpack captain with TH/SS (shield eternal). He's pretty good at deleting a Ravager or Raider once per round. The durability is pretty good as well. The last game I played he was able to SFS, charge and destroy a Ravager in one go. He then survived 2 rounds in close-combat with 2 Archons who disembarked from a Venom. I would've killed an Archon on the next round but he made 3 of 6 FNP's to stay alive and then got killed by a biker SC (practicing for a team tournament which explains the odd Drukhari/Custodes pairing). I usually back him up with Shrike and VV vets with chainswords/SS and lightning claws. Shrike isn't that bad actually against DELDAR vehicles with his relic claws. Most vehicles are t5/t6 and d3 damage adds up. The VV can then charge whatever was inside.

With Eldar it's much the same. I rely on CC to tie-up and destroy vehicles. Melta bombs are a steal as well. I can usually find the points to throw them on the squad which helps put some wounds on things as well.

Aleister_Dakka wrote:
Any tips on beating Necrons? Playing 2k points, was against 3x Catacomb Barges, 3x full Destroyer squads, 3x5 Immortals with Destroyer Lord and some other things I forget. I was playing with LRC, 2 squads of Terminators (one regular, one Assault), a Redemptor Dread, Helbrecht, Emp Champ, Captain, 2x Lt, 3x5 Crusaders (3x Plasmagun, 2x LC, 1x HB), 3x 5-man Scouts with bolters. I'm considering some Assbacks for a high ROF vs. the Barges shielding. And yeah I know Terminators are suboptimal I just love them and the LRC. It may have just been that he was rolling super hot on Barge shots

I main necrons

Vs that list...you need to absolutely destroy those destroyers, 1 squad at a time. That is 900 points of his army tied up in 3 6 model squads.
Thunder hammers and 2 damage weapons are excellent vs barges as well. Remember, honestly, necrons get like, 3-4 attacks most times on the charge
Assault cannons are good, autocannons are better for anti-tank. Sadly, the terminators and land raider are likely priority 1 for him.

 Spreelock wrote:
Hey guys, I've been planning to start my third marine army, and I'm having a tough choice between ultramarines and imperial fists. They both have good value as a gunline, but I'm more intrested about imperial fists, their colour scheme fits well with hawkshroud knights. So, question is, what works with imperial fists? My previous armies are dark angels and space wolves.

my suggestion? neither make a custom sucessor chapter so you can experiment with tactics a bit.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Spreelock wrote:
Hey guys, I've been planning to start my third marine army, and I'm having a tough choice between ultramarines and imperial fists. They both have good value as a gunline, but I'm more intrested about imperial fists, their colour scheme fits well with hawkshroud knights. So, question is, what works with imperial fists? My previous armies are dark angels and space wolves.

my suggestion? neither make a custom sucessor chapter so you can experiment with tactics a bit.

O...kay, I'll propably just going to make shooty imperial cheesysnacks. Mainly focusing at primaris marines.

Pop Goes the Monkey on Shapeways makes some great custom chapter badges, if you're looking to bling your successor marines out a bit.

Anyone been having any luck with mobile vanilla marine armies as of late? I feel like I've been pigeon-holed into a static gunline army as of late. There are some turns that I don't move a single model and it just feels boring but I'm not quite sure how to switch it up.

So anyone been doing well with a mobile marine army?

Only mobile army I can see that has any chance of doing anything against the likes of eldar/dark eldar or tau is some sort of raven guard alpha strike force, after the FAQ, it is either that or the static gunline taking advantage of gulliman. Footslogging or trying to get forward in rhinos is a plan doomed to failure, as is the general trend, it's a better idea to take more infantry in place of transports, since marine transports don't give any real mobility anymore, they can be tied up and they don't shoot effectively for their points.

Vilehydra wrote:
Anyone been having any luck with mobile vanilla marine armies as of late? I feel like I've been pigeon-holed into a static gunline army as of late. There are some turns that I don't move a single model and it just feels boring but I'm not quite sure how to switch it up.

So anyone been doing well with a mobile marine army?

If you're getting that bored, try Chainsword Vanguard with a Jump Chaplain + the helm in a Black Templars detachment I guess. There's not much anymore the codex offers I'm afraid compared to the special snowflake codices...

Even with the excellent selection of FW units, I find little reason to go with the Vanilla codex compared to, say, Deathwatch. Only thing we are offering is Scouts. That's literally it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Postulent wrote:
Only mobile army I can see that has any chance of doing anything against the likes of eldar/dark eldar or tau is some sort of raven guard alpha strike force, after the FAQ, it is either that or the static gunline taking advantage of gulliman. Footslogging or trying to get forward in rhinos is a plan doomed to failure, as is the general trend, it's a better idea to take more infantry in place of transports, since marine transports don't give any real mobility anymore, they can be tied up and they don't shoot effectively for their points.

I think the Termite Drills offer some potential beta strike potential (unless you really think you can alpha, but godspeed with that) but what's getting more offensive output compared to the special codices?

Postulent wrote:
Only mobile army I can see that has any chance of doing anything against the likes of eldar/dark eldar or tau is some sort of raven guard alpha strike force, after the FAQ, it is either that or the static gunline taking advantage of gulliman. Footslogging or trying to get forward in rhinos is a plan doomed to failure, as is the general trend, it's a better idea to take more infantry in place of transports, since marine transports don't give any real mobility anymore, they can be tied up and they don't shoot effectively for their points.

I think it's actually a bit of a trap to think you HAVE to be static with Roboute.

Moving makes you shoot worse, but not that much worse, and the re-rolls to wound typically about makes up for or more than make up for the penalty for moving compared to other aura options.

Obviously it's better to stay still if you can, but you should think of his bonus as being "reroll all wounds and then choose between rerolling hits OR shooting heavy weapons with no penalty for moving" because mathematically rerolling hits and going from BS3 to BS4 cancel each other out.

It's only if your opponent also has a -1 to hit that moving really starts to take a toll, since you reroll dice before you modify them, but moving with Roboute is still better than not moving with just a captain or just a Lt.

And of course you still get the re-rolls to wound, which is the thing that is actually amazing about RG, since it makes guns anywhere from 16 to 83 percent better at wounding, depending on the result you need to wound, with it helping weak weapons more than good ones. Unless you are winding in 6s, rolling wounds is better than having +1 to wound, which is good to keep in mind, I think.

jcd386 wrote:

Postulent wrote:
Only mobile army I can see that has any chance of doing anything against the likes of eldar/dark eldar or tau is some sort of raven guard alpha strike force, after the FAQ, it is either that or the static gunline taking advantage of gulliman. Footslogging or trying to get forward in rhinos is a plan doomed to failure, as is the general trend, it's a better idea to take more infantry in place of transports, since marine transports don't give any real mobility anymore, they can be tied up and they don't shoot effectively for their points.

I think it's actually a bit of a trap to think you HAVE to be static with Roboute.

Moving makes you shoot worse, but not that much worse, and the re-rolls to wound typically about makes up for or more than make up for the penalty for moving compared to other aura options.

Obviously it's better to stay still if you can, but you should think of his bonus as being "reroll all wounds and then choose between rerolling hits OR shooting heavy weapons with no penalty for moving" because mathematically rerolling hits and going from BS3 to BS4 cancel each other out.

It's only if your opponent also has a -1 to hit that moving really starts to take a toll, since you reroll dice before you modify them, but moving with Roboute is still better than not moving with just a captain or just a Lt.

And of course you still get the re-rolls to wound, which is the thing that is actually amazing about RG, since it makes guns anywhere from 16 to 83 percent better at wounding, depending on the result you need to wound, with it helping weak weapons more than good ones. Unless you are winding in 6s, rolling wounds is better than having +1 to wound, which is good to keep in mind, I think.

It's a metaphorical static. You're basically forced into Roboute's aura, which means if he doesn't move you really don't either.

Sure, but he has an 8" move, and it's probably good to advance him sometimes as well. My point is you probably shouldn't just sit still in your deployment zone with everything as the default, since you still get most of the benefits when you move and RG is so good in close combat you probably want him there ASAP.

Vilehydra wrote:
Anyone been having any luck with mobile vanilla marine armies as of late? I feel like I've been pigeon-holed into a static gunline army as of late. There are some turns that I don't move a single model and it just feels boring but I'm not quite sure how to switch it up.

So anyone been doing well with a mobile marine army?

As someone who didn't play between 5th and 8th, this is what I'm liking least about my return to 40k and marines. All my vehicles now have a -1 if I want to move and the edition's focus on 6" bubbles makes me want to mob up and stand still instead of corral and flank with melta bunkers.

jcd386 wrote:

Spoiler:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

jcd386 wrote:

Postulent wrote:
Only mobile army I can see that has any chance of doing anything against the likes of eldar/dark eldar or tau is some sort of raven guard alpha strike force, after the FAQ, it is either that or the static gunline taking advantage of gulliman. Footslogging or trying to get forward in rhinos is a plan doomed to failure, as is the general trend, it's a better idea to take more infantry in place of transports, since marine transports don't give any real mobility anymore, they can be tied up and they don't shoot effectively for their points.

I think it's actually a bit of a trap to think you HAVE to be static with Roboute.

Moving makes you shoot worse, but not that much worse, and the re-rolls to wound typically about makes up for or more than make up for the penalty for moving compared to other aura options.

Obviously it's better to stay still if you can, but you should think of his bonus as being "reroll all wounds and then choose between rerolling hits OR shooting heavy weapons with no penalty for moving" because mathematically rerolling hits and going from BS3 to BS4 cancel each other out.

It's only if your opponent also has a -1 to hit that moving really starts to take a toll, since you reroll dice before you modify them, but moving with Roboute is still better than not moving with just a captain or just a Lt.

And of course you still get the re-rolls to wound, which is the thing that is actually amazing about RG, since it makes guns anywhere from 16 to 83 percent better at wounding, depending on the result you need to wound, with it helping weak weapons more than good ones. Unless you are winding in 6s, rolling wounds is better than having +1 to wound, which is good to keep in mind, I think.

It's a metaphorical static. You're basically forced into Roboute's aura, which means if he doesn't move you really don't either.

Sure, but he has an 8" move, and it's probably good to advance him sometimes as well. My point is you probably shouldn't just sit still in your deployment zone with everything as the default, since you still get most of the benefits when you move and RG is so good in close combat you probably want him there ASAP.

The problem is your not comparing like for like, static shooting with Bobby G is better than moving shooting with Bobby G.

Also while Bobby G is no slouch in CC very little else in the marine codex excells in CC.

Though sadly at this point I think the vanilla marine codex is showing its age and just can't answer the competitive lists from the newer codex's.

Ice_can wrote:

jcd386 wrote:

Spoiler:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

jcd386 wrote:

Postulent wrote:
Only mobile army I can see that has any chance of doing anything against the likes of eldar/dark eldar or tau is some sort of raven guard alpha strike force, after the FAQ, it is either that or the static gunline taking advantage of gulliman. Footslogging or trying to get forward in rhinos is a plan doomed to failure, as is the general trend, it's a better idea to take more infantry in place of transports, since marine transports don't give any real mobility anymore, they can be tied up and they don't shoot effectively for their points.

I think it's actually a bit of a trap to think you HAVE to be static with Roboute.

Moving makes you shoot worse, but not that much worse, and the re-rolls to wound typically about makes up for or more than make up for the penalty for moving compared to other aura options.

Obviously it's better to stay still if you can, but you should think of his bonus as being "reroll all wounds and then choose between rerolling hits OR shooting heavy weapons with no penalty for moving" because mathematically rerolling hits and going from BS3 to BS4 cancel each other out.

It's only if your opponent also has a -1 to hit that moving really starts to take a toll, since you reroll dice before you modify them, but moving with Roboute is still better than not moving with just a captain or just a Lt.

And of course you still get the re-rolls to wound, which is the thing that is actually amazing about RG, since it makes guns anywhere from 16 to 83 percent better at wounding, depending on the result you need to wound, with it helping weak weapons more than good ones. Unless you are winding in 6s, rolling wounds is better than having +1 to wound, which is good to keep in mind, I think.

It's a metaphorical static. You're basically forced into Roboute's aura, which means if he doesn't move you really don't either.

Sure, but he has an 8" move, and it's probably good to advance him sometimes as well. My point is you probably shouldn't just sit still in your deployment zone with everything as the default, since you still get most of the benefits when you move and RG is so good in close combat you probably want him there ASAP.

The problem is your not comparing like for like, static shooting with Bobby G is better than moving shooting with Bobby G.

Also while Bobby G is no slouch in CC very little else in the marine codex excells in CC.

Though sadly at this point I think the vanilla marine codex is showing its age and just can't answer the competitive lists from the newer codex's.

My point is that usually it's not that much better, so you shouldn't be afraid to move if the mission etc demands it. I did say obviously it is better if you are still.

I know I personally get into the mental out of "never move heavy weapons no matter what" when that isn't always the right choice, especially when you have Roboute around, so I was just commenting on that.

The problem with moving forward is that you are effectively only downgrading your own shooting, even with gulliman buffs, if you move and are shooting an alaitoc serpent or any space elf flier really, you aren't going to do much. Moving forward in an aura bubble box also opens you to being tied up, a venom can gently bump your razorback without losing anything, and you won't be able to shoot. Since you are forced to be in box formation, a savvy opponent will just charge one tank and swing himself with charge and pile moves to touch multiple tanks and disables them all for a turn, also quite likely forcing you to move even more tanks and Bobby G just to have room to fall back with the tied vehicles in the first place.

This is the problem with gulliman gunline, you are either forced to stay still, maximize your effective firepower and try to outshoot the opponent for the first three turns before moving forward when the enemy is hopefully enough murdered not to be able to contest you (also known as tau fortress tactic) or moving forward and weakening your own shooting while also simultaneously making yourself vulnerable to being tied up by either expendable or flying units.

So you either move which puts you into a disadvantage by itself in form of hit penalties or being tied up, or try to outshoot xenos gunlines in a static gunfight, which they will win, or at least control the board to the extent that you will lose anyway.

Yeah that's definitely a good summary of the tactical options and their issues. I think my point is that the second option can often be the better one, and I think sometimes people forget that. It in no way makes Marines a better army.

They are still fundamentally flawed and stuck in a world where if I didn't know better GW forgot 8th was coming out, made a SM codex based on 7th edition by nerfing all the OP stuff, and then converted it to 8th at the last minute by removing all the special rules and dumping in primaris units.

Postulent wrote:
The problem with moving forward is that you are effectively only downgrading your own shooting, even with gulliman buffs, if you move and are shooting an alaitoc serpent or any space elf flier really, you aren't going to do much. Moving forward in an aura bubble box also opens you to being tied up, a venom can gently bump your razorback without losing anything, and you won't be able to shoot. Since you are forced to be in box formation, a savvy opponent will just charge one tank and swing himself with charge and pile moves to touch multiple tanks and disables them all for a turn, also quite likely forcing you to move even more tanks and Bobby G just to have room to fall back with the tied vehicles in the first place.

This is the problem with gulliman gunline, you are either forced to stay still, maximize your effective firepower and try to outshoot the opponent for the first three turns before moving forward when the enemy is hopefully enough murdered not to be able to contest you (also known as tau fortress tactic) or moving forward and weakening your own shooting while also simultaneously making yourself vulnerable to being tied up by either expendable or flying units.

So you either move which puts you into a disadvantage by itself in form of hit penalties or being tied up, or try to outshoot xenos gunlines in a static gunfight, which they will win, or at least control the board to the extent that you will lose anyway.

Or... if you use Rapid-Fire Weapons your damage output increases as you get closer. Also Rapid Fire weapons don't have a negative modifier for moving. Plus if you're doing the UM thing and not relying on vehicles for your firepower, you don't get tied up with CC.

People aren't planning to tie you up in melee in the first place overall just because you can fall back and it's an unreliable way to stop someone from shooting. The best way to stop that is to kill the unit.