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Just a quick question,

Simply said, does a command squad have to stay with/be with the captain?

If you give an answer, I'd appreciate a reference.

Thankyou,

Alexgm101

No.

The lack of a reference is because there is nothing saying they must remain with him.

A Command Squad unit is not a Retinue. The Captain can join or leave as he pleases. Any SM IC can join or leave the Command Squad.

kirsanth wrote:No.

The lack of a reference is because there is nothing saying they must remain with him.

Just as i thought myself, cheers! Bring on the 5 man plasma gun and storm shield squad!

alexgm101 wrote:

kirsanth wrote:No.

The lack of a reference is because there is nothing saying they must remain with him.

Just as i thought myself, cheers! Bring on the 5 man plasma gun and storm shield squad!

Make that 4 plasma. The apot can not buy any equipment

Apothocary has a seperate statline and may take no upgrades except for the entire unit gaining bikes.

Not just Separate Statline, Separate name.

GW could, in all their infinite Confusion, Make a unit with 2 different "versions" of the same models within the unit, both identically named but with Different Statlines; lets call this unit: Ubermarines. Now there can be 1 Ubermarine in the unit that can be upgraded for a certain number of points to have a better Profile(the Second profile for Ubermarines listed in the Codex, with +1 to several Stats), then the unit entry could say that any Ubermarine could take a power weapon. The Upgraded Ubermarine with the +1 Stats, being still an "Ubermarine" could take the Power weapon, but so could any of the non-upgraded "Ubermarines".

This goes the Same with the Apothecary, who has exactly the Same Stats as the other Veterans, but has a different Name (and as such a Separate Statline, just so we know what the capabilities of an "apothecary" are). It is the Name that forbids the taking of options, not the Statline.

Or you could just say that Unit A contains models b and c. If the upgrade refers to A, then b and c models can take it. If the upgrade refers to just b models, then only b models can take it.

Nurglitch wrote:Or you could just say that Unit A contains models b and c. If the upgrade refers to A, then b and c models can take it. If the upgrade refers to just b models, then only b models can take it.

That Doesn't always work out, I mean it does when you have three separate Names; Unit A, Models B, and C.

It Fails when you have Unit A, Models A and B. Especially when the upgrades Say: For every X models in the unit, 1 "A" can have Upgrade Y; and then goes on to say for ever X "A" one model in the unit may have Upgrade Z(I am Talking of Reavers here; but I believe there are a few others out there)

It works plenty well because "Model A" is not the same as "Unit A".

Excepting that every model is a "A", but then 1 is also a "B". I do the Reavers Conservatively only counting the "Reaver" reavers for the Purposes of how many Caltrops/Snares I can get; but Technically the Arena Champion is also a Reaver, because the unit is a Reaver Unit, that consists of Reavers and an Arena Champion.

Honestly this is less confusing to read as Unit A consists of A, and B; so all of the unit is A, but one is also B.

When you Have Unit A consisting of Models B and C; Then All the models are A, Most are A and B, and one is A and C.

Eternal Newb wrote:A Command Squad unit is not a Retinue. The Captain can join or leave as he pleases. Any SM IC can join or leave the Command Squad.

A command squad would seem to be a 'retinue' but the rules are not 100% clear.

P.48 under Retinues says "...Normally called a retinue, 'Bodyguard' or similar..."

Command Squad is similar to Retinue.

So the Command Squad can not be left by an IC until all the retinue are killed.

DeathReaper wrote:

Eternal Newb wrote:A Command Squad unit is not a Retinue. The Captain can join or leave as he pleases. Any SM IC can join or leave the Command Squad.

A command squad would seem to be a 'retinue' but the rules are not 100% clear.

P.48 under Retinues says "...Normally called a retinue, 'Bodyguard' or similar..."

Command Squad is similar to Retinue.

So the Command Squad can not be left by an IC until all the retinue are killed.

how do you figure? I failed to see the words retinue or bodyguard, just that if you take a Capt you may select a CMD squad. It would be the same as Joining an IC to a tac squad. There is no special clause in it like with the tyrant guard in the NIDs codex.

Even the tyrant Guard are not really a retinue; they can function as one, but do not require you to begin the game with the Tyrant attached, nor ever even attach the tyrant.

And Death Reaper: That logical leap could Clear the Grand Canyon. To go from quoting the Rules for Retinues to The command Squad is a retinue(and citing no rules to back up this claim) is just plain making gak up.

Spot on Kel, I should've stated the retinue ability opposed to the squad in question.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

Eternal Newb wrote:A Command Squad unit is not a Retinue. The Captain can join or leave as he pleases. Any SM IC can join or leave the Command Squad.

A command squad would seem to be a 'retinue' but the rules are not 100% clear.

P.48 under Retinues says "...Normally called a retinue, 'bodyguard' or similar..."

Command Squad is similar to Retinue.

So the Command Squad can not be left by an IC until all the retinue are killed.

how do you figure? I failed to see the words retinue or bodyguard, just that if you take a Capt you may select a CMD squad. It would be the same as Joining an IC to a tac squad. There is no special clause in it like with the tyrant guard in the NIDs codex.

It does not need to say retinue or bodyguard, because it says "...Normally called a 'retinue', 'bodyguard' or similar..."

Honor guard/Command Squad etc. are all similar to retinue.

Since they are normally called a retinue, bodyguard or similar, the command squad follows the rules for retinues.

the BRB does not define retinue, so it again is left to us to know what retinue means.

So by definition Command squad = Retinue. Or is at least similar to retinue.

DeathReaper wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

Eternal Newb wrote:A Command Squad unit is not a Retinue. The Captain can join or leave as he pleases. Any SM IC can join or leave the Command Squad.

A command squad would seem to be a 'retinue' but the rules are not 100% clear.

P.48 under Retinues says "...Normally called a retinue, 'bodyguard' or similar..."

Command Squad is similar to Retinue.

So the Command Squad can not be left by an IC until all the retinue are killed.

how do you figure? I failed to see the words retinue or bodyguard, just that if you take a Capt you may select a CMD squad. It would be the same as Joining an IC to a tac squad. There is no special clause in it like with the tyrant guard in the NIDs codex.

It does not need to say retinue or bodyguard, because it says "...Normally called a 'retinue', 'bodyguard' or similar..."

Honor guard/Command Squad etc. are all similar to retinue.

Since they are normally called a retinue, bodyguard or similar, the command squad follows the rules for retinues.

the BRB does not define retinue, so it again is left to us to know what retinue means.

So by definition Command squad = Retinue. Or is at least similar to retinue.

No, just no.

Who determines what is "similar" to retinue? Why is a command squad "similar" to a retinue.

You're making rules up. If it doesn't say that the SM Command Squad is a retinue, it's not. Plain and simple.

DeathReaper wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

Eternal Newb wrote:A Command Squad unit is not a Retinue. The Captain can join or leave as he pleases. Any SM IC can join or leave the Command Squad.

A command squad would seem to be a 'retinue' but the rules are not 100% clear.

P.48 under Retinues says "...Normally called a retinue, 'bodyguard' or similar..."

Command Squad is similar to Retinue.

So the Command Squad can not be left by an IC until all the retinue are killed.

how do you figure? I failed to see the words retinue or bodyguard, just that if you take a Capt you may select a CMD squad. It would be the same as Joining an IC to a tac squad. There is no special clause in it like with the tyrant guard in the NIDs codex.

It does not need to say retinue or bodyguard, because it says "...Normally called a 'retinue', 'bodyguard' or similar..."

Honor guard/Command Squad etc. are all similar to retinue.

Since they are normally called a retinue, bodyguard or similar, the command squad follows the rules for retinues.

the BRB does not define retinue, so it again is left to us to know what retinue means.

So by definition Command squad = Retinue. Or is at least similar to retinue.

By this logic every squad in the game with a restriction is a retinue?

MoTF ='s Heavy Support Dreads for C:SM ='s retinue?
A warbosses troop choice Nobz = retinue?

no it would have to have some sort of Rule that made it a Retinue, Bodyguard or Similar; the name of the unit means nothing, unless the name of the unit is referenced in it's own rules, or another units rules.

As an example i have used earlier(in posts, not this thread); if a rule declared it had effect X on "dragons" Eldar Fire dragons would not be effected by this rule.

Just because the unit is called a Command Squad does not mean it is a retinue. Same with SM Honour Guard. Tau Aun'vas honour guard on the other hand are a retinue because their rules state they are.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
By this logic every squad in the game with a restriction is a retinue?

MoTF ='s Heavy Support Dreads for C:SM ='s retinue?
A warbosses troop choice Nobz = retinue?

No, because P. 48 states that "Some codex books allow you to field characters together with a special unit they can not leave during the game (which is normally called a 'retinue', 'bodyguard', or similar). where this is the case..."

so they have to be able to be fielded together with a special unit to be considered a retinue.

SM codex P132 states "You may take one Command Guard squad for every Space Marine Captain in your army..." (This is an example of P.48)

By definition Command Guard Squad = Retinue.

=Inquisitor= wrote:
No, just no.

Who determines what is "similar" to retinue? Why is a command squad "similar" to a retinue.

You're making rules up. If it doesn't say that the SM Command Squad is a retinue, it's not. Plain and simple.

We have to use the dictionary to determine what is "similar" to retinue, since the BRB does not.

Find what retinue means and you will see that I am not making rules up.

Certainly you are making rules up, btw calgar can take 3 honor guard units opposed to 1. that's a rough retinue eh?

There is no rule in Codex: SM for a retinue therefore there isnt one.

Kommissar Kel wrote:no it would have to have some sort of Rule that made it a Retinue, Bodyguard or Similar; the name of the unit means nothing, unless the name of the unit is referenced in it's own rules, or another units rules.

As an example i have used earlier(in posts, not this thread); if a rule declared it had effect X on "dragons" Eldar Fire dragons would not be effected by this rule.

Just because the unit is called a Command Squad does not mean it is a retinue. Same with SM Honour Guard. Tau Aun'vas honour guard on the other hand are a retinue because their rules state they are.

The Tau are a bad example because they do not have a 5th ed codex yet.

No new codex specifically say any units are retinue do they?

I know the Nids, BA, SM, and Chaos codexes do not have the word retinue in them, that i could find anyway.

It seems they denote special upgrade characters and retinue with the grey boxed areas.

The Nids state that the Tyrant can join the Hive Guard and will not be a MC IC " Hence if he joins he cannot be targeted in CC or by shooting"

PS GW has done away with retinues mostly. Thats why you don't see them.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:The Nids state that the Tyrant can join the Hive Guard and will not be a MC IC " Hence if he joins he cannot be targeted in CC or by shooting"

PS GW has done away with retinues mostly. Thats why you don't see them.

Yet the rule still exists in the BRB.

Any unit you can buy because you buy a IC is a retinue/bodyguard/SIMILAR by definition.

Well I can buy wolfguard as troops thanks to logan grimnar so i got a retinue now.

It exists in the BRB but remember the Codex>BRB

Does calgar get 3 honor guard squads as a retinue? beings he has to be attached to them

anyway your logic is flawed

DeathReaper wrote:No new codex specifically say any units are retinue do they?

This was something i was actually going to tell you; No 5th edition Codex has any retinues. Although Once you join a tyrant guard unit you do seem to be stuck with them as if they were a retinue.

Now go back to the beginning of that retinue Rule; "Some Codex books allow you to field characters together with a special unit they cannot leave during the game." Does the Command Squad rules state that you cannot leave them? Does it state that you must field the Character with them?

No it does not. In fact it specifies that they are a separate unit(something a retinue is not, by the way)

I actually can think of 1 unit in one 5th edition Codex that has a Retinue; the Techmarine with the Thunderfire Cannon, he is exactly as defined for an IC with a retinue(although again not called a retinue)

And the reason i chose the Tau codex was because it is not a 5th edition Codex; all other codexes that had retinues excepting Witch/Daemon hunters has already been redone, removing the retinues.

Reaper, you are simply incorrect.

Yes Retinue is defined in the BRB
Yes, a codex can have a retinue without calling it a retinue

But no, the Command squad does *not* meet the BRB definition of a retinue. The IC does not have to be deployed with it, and if it does join, it can leave at any time. Thus, it is *not* a retinue.

As noted, Retinues are pretty much just a legacy rule from 4th. Back in 3rd ed and 4th ed, command squads were normally an upgrade for an HQ character, and their rules specified that it could never leave them during the game, and reverted to IC status if & when they died. Back then you couldn't attach ICs to units in Reserves, either, so command squads helped keep characters alive in reserve situations.

A Retinue is a Retinue. A unit with some other name is not a Retinue unless its own rules specify that it is taken attached to a character and the character can't leave them during the game.

A command squad, eldar warlock squad, or other similar unit that an HQ "unlocks" is not a retinue, unless its rules say the character can't leave them.

coredump wrote:Reaper, you are simply incorrect.

Yes Retinue is defined in the BRB
Yes, a codex can have a retinue without calling it a retinue

But no, the Command squad does *not* meet the BRB definition of a retinue. The IC does not have to be deployed with it, and if it does join, it can leave at any time. Thus, it is *not* a retinue.

Lets go with retinue being defined in the rules, It states "...Normally called a 'retinue', 'bodyguard' or similar..."

Is Honor guard similar to retinue? Yes.

Command squad does meet the BRB definition of a retinue, because it is not called a 'retinue', or 'bodyguard' but something similar, as per BRB definition.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:Well I can buy wolfguard as troops thanks to logan grimnar so i got a retinue now.

It exists in the BRB but remember the Codex>BRB

Does calgar get 3 honor guard squads as a retinue? beings he has to be attached to them

anyway your logic is flawed

wolfguard are a regular unit, not a special unit. Buying the IC allows them to fulfill troop choices on the Force Org Chart...

Calgar needs to be attached to one of them. and he does not count as an IC until the one he is with are killed.

Kommissar Kel wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:No new codex specifically say any units are retinue do they?

This was something i was actually going to tell you; No 5th edition Codex has any retinues. Although Once you join a tyrant guard unit you do seem to be stuck with them as if they were a retinue.

Now go back to the beginning of that retinue Rule; "Some Codex books allow you to field characters together with a special unit they cannot leave during the game." Does the Command Squad rules state that you cannot leave them? Does it state that you must field the Character with them?

No it does not. In fact it specifies that they are a separate unit(something a retinue is not, by the way)

I actually can think of 1 unit in one 5th edition Codex that has a Retinue; the Techmarine with the Thunderfire Cannon, he is exactly as defined for an IC with a retinue(although again not called a retinue)

And the reason i chose the Tau codex was because it is not a 5th edition Codex; all other codexes that had retinues excepting Witch/Daemon hunters has already been redone, removing the retinues.

I must have missed the part where the dex 'specifies that they are a separate unit' (where is this for my clarification?)

As for the tau and other codex, they seem to have changed the retinue ruled from 4th ed thats why they are not specifically listed as retinue anymore, but we have to look at the BRB to find this out?

Of course, this is another issue that is not 100% clear (Which I said in my first post)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
how do you figure? I failed to see the words retinue or bodyguard, just that if you take a Capt you may select a CMD squad. It would be the same as Joining an IC to a tac squad. There is no special clause in it like with the tyrant guard in the NIDs codex.

There is no special clause in the nid dex either, that just says:

"A single Hive tyrant may join a unit of tyrant guard exactly as if it were an independent character. If a Hive Tyrant has joined a unit of Tyrant guard the unit can not go to ground voluntarily or otherwise."

where does this say it is a retinue exactly?

Similar is loose at best, especially if the dex doesnt state it's a retinue considering dex>Brb it's like apples and bananas. Nothing is said to indicate the IC loses the IC rules or that he has to start/stay with the unit


Automatically Appended Next Post:
check the nids FAQ it's the closest thing to a retinue in 5th, states that the tyrant can't leave them etc etc