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This will be my take all comers 2500pt Tourney list. I want to be competitive without being abusive. It's also important to me that I have as many tricks and toys up my sleeve as possible. Comments and criticism welcome. Help me shore up the holes in my list.

2500.0 Pts - TAC Skaven

=Lords=
Grey Seer on Bell with Dispel Scroll - (465.0 pts)

=Heroes=
Plague Priest on Furnace with Foul Pendant - (284.0 pts)
Warlock Engineer with Doomrocket - (45.0 pts)
Warlock Engineer with Death Globe - (40.0 pts)
Warlock Engineer with Brass Orb - (65.0 pts)

=Core=
29 Clanrats with Full Command, Shields, Poisoned Wind Mortar Team - (215.5 pts)
23 Stormvermin with Full Command, Poisoned Wind Mortar Team - (251.0 pts)
30 Skavenslaves with Musician and Pawleader - (66.0 pts)
30 Skavenslaves with Musician and Pawleader - (66.0 pts)
30 Skavenslaves with Musician and Pawleader - (66.0 pts)

=Special=
30 Plague Monks with Full Command - (242.0 pts)
6 Plague Censer Bearers - (96.0 pts)
6 Gutter Runners with Slings and Poisoned Attacks - (108.0 pts)

=Rare=
Doomwheel - (150.0 pts)
Hell Pit Abomination with Warpstone Spikes - (250.0 pts)
Warp-Lightning Cannon - (90.0 pts)

Total Roster Cost: 2499.5


Basic battle plan is as follows:

- Bell goes in Clanrat unit (7x7) with Stormvermin on side to flank charge.
- Furnace goes in Monk unit(7x7) with Plague Censer Bearers on side to flank charge.
- A warlock engineer goes into each slave unit for cheap leadership buff and possible skitterleap shenanigans with magic items.
- Pawleaders in slave units to issue and receive challenges.
- Gutterrunners hunt warmachines and lone characters.
- Doomwheel goes up a flank and / or monster hunts.
- Hellpit goes between Bell and Furnace and looks menacing.

The list seems ok, but a few suggestions.

- drop the commands on slaves, this will afford you banner of the storm, more slave and warp fire throwers. the poison winds have lost their touch now.

-lower the number of plague monks to 20 and erase the gutter runners. use these to buy more slaves with spears and slings. (a horde 10 wide, 4 deep is a big threat). Ive played plague monks, they drop like flies.

this gives you a good defense while you trudge the warmachines up the board, then a solid shooting line and slaves with spears are excelent stopping blocks to pin the opponent

Good luck!

So it's not abusive because it only has one unit of poisoned sling gutters and no stormbanner? And I guess the slave units are somewhat shallow? More constructively, the lack of a BSB is disturbing, even if the two blocks that matter are unbreakable.

A dude showed up last weekend at my FLGS's monthly 2500 point tournament with bell, furnace, HPA, doomwheel (x2), WLC. We all knew he would win, and he did, while also making everybody feel like they wasted their time deploying against him. Just saying.

- Salvage

So what you're saying is that by taking skaven, I auto-win! YAY!!! I'll let the other people in the tournament know when I get there. Then once all of the prizes are awarded to me, I'll let the tournament continue for fun. Maybe. Unless someone brings dwarves. If someone does, I'll make him eat his entire army with no condiments at all. While dancing to Justin Bieber. I hates the beard-things!!!

The abusive things I intentionally avoided are:
- Bell + Seer +Bsb
- Double Abom
- Double Furnace
- >40 slave units
- Special characters
- Storm Banner
- Seer + power scroll

Forgot about power scroll + 13th, TFG was definitely rocking that too.

Filthy Sanchez wrote:So what you're saying is that by taking skaven, I auto-win!

Nope, but when you take every Big Toy you're perhaps making things unpleasant for the people you play and a touch too easy for yourself. But then I have no idea what the competition you expect is like, what kind of player you are, how badly you want the win, or whether you produced some really excellent bell / furnace / hellpit / wheel models and just want to push cool stuff forward and roll dice ftw. I think my comment was that sometimes less is more in warhams, but YMMV.

Either way, rock on.

- Salvage

If I may ask, what makes certain units "abusive"? There are definitely plenty of units in the Skaven book that are simply not worth the points to field, so why is it "abusive" to take the ones that are?

edit: I should be clear, I'm just curious, not accusatory. I've been building 2,000 - 4,000 point lists and a lot of the units in the OP end up in my lists.

edit 2: I should also clarify that I haven't used those lists yet, and have yet to try even using plague monks, let alone a furnace or bell :(

I like it. Despite having bell+furnace+abomination.
You don't have a BSB, and the units are a little small, meaning you'll have to get a synergy between units, or you'll be grinding out against stubborn units; and skaven don't grind well.

The only wizard is also the general, and on a giant easy to spot target. You don't have the storm banner, so you'll have to make a mad dash across the table.

I think it will make for good games. You're opponent will be able to break units, and take down the big things, but you brought enough big things where some will make it in.

This isn't a fluffy bunny list, but I do think it would be enjoyable to face. I wouldn't change anything, because just a few tweeks would put it in the abusive category.

-Matt

If you want lots of tricks and toys, but want to avoid getting punched in-between rounds, I'd suggest dropping one of the engines. You'll get a lot of points towards other things, and your battle line won't look quite so scary.

Also, I think I should point out that monsters, while tough, are simply not as good as they used to be. Now, monster vs. unit will mean that the unit is steadfast, and everyone gets a stab at your big gribblie. Not that I'm saying they're bad; they're just not ridiculous any more.

And Skavenknight; how is dropping three unit's worth of slave command going to allow him to buy an extra 60 points worth of stuff? I'd keep the command; that champion can delay a scary character and hold up his unit for a turn, and you should ALWAYS take musicians. Especially when they're two points.
If you drop the Monks down to 20, I wouldn't bother fielding them. At least, not with a Furnace.
And if you want tricks, Gutter Runners are a great way to get them. War machine hunting to protect your A-bomb.

I'd drop the Death Globe Engineer (two such rats ought to be enough, lest you become predictable). If you got rid of him and the bell or the furnace, you could fit in a BSB, maybe throw in an Assassin with the Weeping Blade + Potion of Strength, or maybe just the Sword of Anti Heroes? He's really not bad, and he's another dirty trick up your sleeve. Otherwise, it's solid.

I greatly prefer seeing one of every big shiny thing Skaven has to offer instead of the same ones spammed. At least speaking as a Dark Elf player, I don't particularly find a single bell, furnace, cannon, wheel, and abom to be "abusive". It's just taking a variety of things available. Heck, 7th edition Dark Elf lists often had one of nearly everything in the book. To be fair, people whined about that too!

I would be most concerned about your counter-charge units. 23 Stormvermin certainly are not slouches, but 6 Censer Bearers can be easily handled by shooting, magic, high-initiative things, etc. After that, anything with decent toughness will just grind down your Furnace unit, especially if they hit a flank and don't actually touch the furnace.

The plan is to screen the censer bearers with a slave unit or the plaguemonks themselves only bringing them out to charge the unit the monks are mixing it up with. Censer bearers are skirmishers and when combined with hard cover granting support units will enjoy a nice -3 bonus to my opponent's shooting.

That makes sense, just be sure not to accidentally block them off from combat. For instance, if a Chariot or two nails one corner of the Monks and it takes two turns for the Censers to get there, the damage has already been done.
Those engineers are not casters, right? Why not upgrade the Priest to a Lv.2 for more spell selection and a little easier time casting, or at least give him a Censer? Having +2 strength during the first round of combat would definitely punish things trying to knock out him or the furnace.

No Warpfire throwers? I understand they're expensive and relatively fragile, but that bouncing flame template is scary.

Of course, this list list is written very well and doesn't have much fat to take off to make room for little upgrades like Lv.2, Censer, or Warpfire. It would involve taking away shiny toys or entire units of slaves, neither of which are particularly great ideas. Do you feel Stormvermin are an adequate counter-charge unit? S4 is nice, but they die pretty easily and aren't the cheapest things to field. How well do those Buzzsaw weapon teams work? Would a smaller unit of 15 Storms + Buzzsaw thing work better as a counter-charge unit?

I do have one final, major complaint: Why is there no pistol on the Grey Seer?

To answer your question on abusive Skaven tactics now:

1. Multiple units of scouting, poisoned sling armed gutter runners.
2. 40-50+ slave units 10 deep 5 wide with a basic engineer in them.
3. Double Abom
4. Power Scroll Grey Seer

Haven't really seen the bell or furnance used that much.

I don't know - your list isn't that abusive. Like I said though if you really wanted to get nasty, I would recommend the following:

1. Drop the brass orb and death globe from the engineers.
2. Add in a BSB with Stormbanner.
3. Drop the stormvermin - increase the size of your clanrat unit (put your general in there) and make the rest slave units 50 big with no command.
4. Drop the PCB (Int 3 is so bad now) and go with 1-2 more units of Gutter runners.
5. Drop the Doomwheel and go another cannon.

That should put you in the pretty abusive/yet very, very competitive category. I personally don't like the bell as it makes the general a little more vulnerable to shooting attacks (cannons anyone?) - for the points cost, you could add in some additional gutter runners, rare choices, big slave units, etc. Skaven now just seem to be almost impossible to beat with the steadfast rule - basically looking at rerollable LD 10 on just about anything as long as you are in range of the general. Even having the cheapo engineers in the slave units makes them LD 8 on their own. . . . .

Actually sold my Skaven after playing a couple tournament Skaven lists that left a really bad taste in my mouth - saw where they were going for the ultra-competitive side and decided against it.

If the cannon hits the bell you still randomize, so only hitting the grey seer on a 6, and he still has the 4+ ward save.

I dont like the bell in this edition at all. Having to use your power dice if you roll scorch sucks pretty hard.

I can also tell you with that list, if your tourny is comped, you will probably get hit pretty hard.

True.

Skaven can be super-competitive and brutal, but they don't have to be.

Once again, I would strongly recommend a BSB. I know it bumps your guys from "pretty good" to "awesome", but "pretty good" just doesn't cut it.

- I'd agree on the Censer Bearers: they need more numbers to survive that first round 'o combat.
- I would definitely NOT give the Priest a Censer. Just a flail. Less points, same Str, and 13 of yourr Monks won't have to make T tests each round your in combat.

- Also, I'd like to point out that while hitting a Bell/Furnace unit in the flank was ideal in 7th, you can just pass your re-rollable Ld10 test to reform now.

Warpsolution wrote:Also, I'd like to point out that while hitting a Bell/Furnace unit in the flank was ideal in 7th, you can just pass your re-rollable Ld10 test to reform now.

Definitely a good point, but at least it keeps my T3 elves out of the Furnace for that first round.

ShivanAngel wrote:If the cannon hits the bell you still randomize, so only hitting the grey seer on a 6, and he still has the 4+ ward save.

I dont like the bell in this edition at all. Having to use your power dice if you roll scorch sucks pretty hard.

I can also tell you with that list, if your tourny is comped, you will probably get hit pretty hard.

Actually, page 9 rules say anything with multiple locations will hit all from a template. That's how I'd argue that the bell gets hit in all locations. I know the counter argument is "but it says the armybook trumps rulebook and it has rules for randomization, blah blah blah."

Also, the scorch is actually free again thanks to FAQ's.

A cannon ball isn't a template though, is it? Or is it a template as long as your artillery die shows, and infinitely thin?

Even with a 4+ Ward, I'd hate to lose my Seer (or even the Bell itself, at 200pts) to a cannon. But hey, multiple targets and all that. Maybe your weapon teams won't be blown up before they can blow themselves up, if your bell takes all the aggro.

I don't see anything wrong with it. You really need to have nasty units in Skaven no matter what other players say.
Sure, you could take all units of slaves and clanrats but you'd lose every time.

I really like shields on my slaves for the saves, but I understand keeping them cheap. Remember that you can fire into them... it's a great way to take out much more elite troops since you randomize hits onto them.

You only need the engineer with the doom rocket, the other ones are nice (especially the one that kills you if you fail initiative tests). Keep that one for Slann and lizardmen armies if you want.

Sebulba wrote:
I really like shields on my slaves for the saves, but I understand keeping them cheap. Remember that you can fire into them... it's a great way to take out much more elite troops since you randomize hits onto them.

It's even better than that actually. The randomization of hits was removed in the FAQ, so now you just hit what you shoot at. (Barring things like scatter or the like.)

Oh really! Crap... there goes my tactic of charging in slaves against hydras and then hitting them with warpfire throwers... lol

Oh well, it was broken anyway.

Well, if you can get the Thrower to hit the Hydra, it automatically hits the Hydra now ; the tactic is still very much alive and viable!

Yeah, but if you hit 20 of your own guys with the flamethrower, half of the hits are distributed over to the hydra... much more deadly.

I once did 14 wounds to my buddy's general on a hippogriph after he charged my slaves and I shot a warplightning cannon into them.

well this last comment attests to why the rules were changed i guess...lol

Yeah... it was really broken haha

Heh, guess it does weaken template weapons, but only if you aim at yourself. It does mean that a template that lands entirely on your opponent no longer randomizes to your troops though.

It also means things like Jezzails, throwing stars and any other BS fired weapons will ONLY hit your opponent though

Yeah. It "weakens" template weapons in that you can't twist the basic principles of logic in your favor. The idea that, sometimes, one of your dudes gets in the way of a shot- fine. Purposefully placing your cannon directly behind your slaves or whatever to take advantage of the system- not so much.

Month old thread? Check.
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nice card! LOL
Are they any good these Thread Necromancers ?