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The media should keep its mouth shut?

Trump used in favour of creating jobs, not destroying them.

Another bigly forgotten promise. Sad!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 whembly wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
We have the right to control our borders just like every other nation.

The right and the ability to exercise such are not the same thing.

What are you smoking if you think the US can't control its border if it put its mind to it?

Are we a nation that built the Hoover Dam? The Tennesse Valley Association? The Apollo Program?

Are we still?

Probably not, considering how hard Republican administrations have hammered public works and NASA in general.

OTOH building a wall isn't exactly "rocket science". It just takes a lot of money, time, and legal wrangling.

Of course if you think a wall will stop people from entering the USA, you must be a Trump true believer.

 BrotherGecko wrote:
I wonder if Trump will end up building a renewed foundation of Mexican nationalism in response to his foreign oppressive behavior. Mexicans not living on the border or who follow the law will not want to pay for a wall. A glorious future where the cartels come together and build the world's first coke funded aerospace program....

That's oddly beautiful.

 BigWaaagh wrote:
Herr Goebbels does not appreciate mainstream news disrupting the party lie, I mean, line. "I want you to quote this," Mr. Bannon added. “The media here is the opposition party." And the lap dogs, just keep lapping it up.


http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump%e2%80%99s-chief-strategist-says-news-media-should-%e2%80%98keep-its-mouth-shut%e2%80%99/ar-AAmhL9O?li=BBnbcA1&ocid=ASUDHP

Thats is something actually insanely Goebbels-esque...

 Vaktathi wrote:

 BigWaaagh wrote:
Herr Goebbels does not appreciate mainstream news disrupting the party lie, I mean, line. "I want you to quote this," Mr. Bannon added. “The media here is the opposition party." And the lap dogs, just keep lapping it up.


http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump%e2%80%99s-chief-strategist-says-news-media-should-%e2%80%98keep-its-mouth-shut%e2%80%99/ar-AAmhL9O?li=BBnbcA1&ocid=ASUDHP

Thats is something actually insanely Goebbels-esque...

Especially when you consider that the administration is more than happy to pander to Fox and the rest of the right-wing-outrage machine. So look at the bright side. There's finally an admission that Faux and Fiends aren't real news

 Vaktathi wrote:

 BigWaaagh wrote:
Herr Goebbels does not appreciate mainstream news disrupting the party lie, I mean, line. "I want you to quote this," Mr. Bannon added. “The media here is the opposition party." And the lap dogs, just keep lapping it up.


http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump%e2%80%99s-chief-strategist-says-news-media-should-%e2%80%98keep-its-mouth-shut%e2%80%99/ar-AAmhL9O?li=BBnbcA1&ocid=ASUDHP

Thats is something actually insanely Goebbels-esque...

Yup! Great having a POTUS with an embedded propaganda minister plugged into an alt-right news site. WAKE UP AMERICA!!!!

 whembly wrote:
Are we a nation that built the Hoover Dam? The Tennesse Valley Association?

Except these two things had qualitative, verifiable economic benefits.

The Apollo Program?

Ah yes, the program that brought about the peaceful exploration of the Moon in the name of all that is good in mankind. That's a perfect thing to compare this stupid fething wall idea too.

Are we still?

Sure, but the swelling of national pride should come from something for the benefit of everyone (see the Apollo Program), not the isolationist, xenophobic, wet dream of a raving moron.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 whembly wrote:
Are we a nation that built the Hoover Dam? The Tennesse Valley Association?

Except these two things had qualitative, verifiable economic benefits.

The Apollo Program?

Ah yes, the program that brought about the peaceful exploration of the Moon in the name of all that is good in mankind. That's a perfect thing to compare this stupid fething wall idea too.

Are we still?

Sure, but the swelling of national pride should come from something for the benefit of everyone (see the Apollo Program), not the isolationist, xenophobic, wet dream of a raving moron.

Ah.... I see...

So it's not a matter of ability... but, will.

Glad we cleared that up.

It only took less than a month for Whembs to go to team trump

 Kilkrazy wrote:

Trump used in favour of creating jobs, not destroying them.

Depends for who. After all, his definition of "Americans" may vary from what you would think it is.

What's really interesting isn't the same gak defense from the same people, but more like Trump is clearly acting like he's already campaigning for a second mandate.

I mean, he already secured the motto for its campaign. That's not a hazard. If you think about it, everything he tweets and does totally go in line with trying to please his base - the republican voting base, that is.

And by reading Frazzled and Whembly, it clearly works.

Which is why it's so interesting. Because that means it will be facing reality of the world. Now what will really matters are the reactions of others countries. We already saw Mexico for now. Next will be coming.

And if USA are suddenly left behind while China welcomes the "despised countries" with open arms, while digging their teeth deeper into USA's debt owning, I'm pretty sure Republicans will find a way to blame it all on the Democrats. Of course, it won't change the final result. But those are interesting times, indeed.

 Ustrello wrote:
It only took less than a month for Whembs to go to team trump

And?

 whembly wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:
It only took less than a month for Whembs to go to team trump

And?

And it's not surprising, that's all.

 Sarouan wrote:
I'm pretty sure Republicans will find a way to blame it all on the Democrats. But those are interesting times, indeed.

I don't think they have too. Setting aside the narcissism of the Republican base, there's also the narcissism of the Democratic base which hasn't been mentioned here lately, but a quick browse through a number of leftist opinion sights shows a disturbing demand from the "faithful" that the Democrats start playing the same game as the Republicans; obstruct, blame, chase pipe dream nonsense. The base is turning in on itself as the party proper continues to be non-adversarial at every turn. Many sites are trumpeting (no pun intended) the approval of some Trump nominees as a sign that the Democrats are too weak to beat Trump, and that a new option is needed.

So not only did the base not turn out to vote, but the base now blames the party that not voting kept out of power for not having the power to stop the "Regime" because it's kind of unreasonable to expect a given list of Dems to sabotage themselves blocking things they can't possibly block. Ignore that some of Trump's picks are absurd, a good number of them however crazy are too qualified to shut down with the current Senate minority.

 Sarouan wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:
It only took less than a month for Whembs to go to team trump

And?

And it's not surprising, that's all.

It's not so much I'm on "team trump"...

I'm simply not participating in the chicken little hysteria you guys got going.

But, what you're feeling now? That's how most of us non-Obama voters felt when he was elected twice.

 whembly wrote:
So it's not a matter of ability... but, will.

Of course it's a matter of will. Any country can build a giant wall, the technology for doing so has been available for thousands of years. The only thing stopping countries from building border walls is that most reasonable governments don't have any interest in throwing away money on something so unbelievably ing stupid. The current republican party seems to be the rare exception.

 whembly wrote:
But, what you're feeling now? That's how most of us non-Obama voters felt when he was elected twice.

And this demonstrates the problem quite nicely: more both-sides-ism, and trying to pretend that Obama and Trump are in any way equivalent.

 whembly wrote:

But, what you're feeling now? That's how most of us non-Obama voters felt when he was elected twice.

Honestly? My head cooled down. And I believe Obama did the right thing by acting like he did when he left the office. The election happened, and Trump is now your president. Republicans have won. They will now be able to do everything they wanted to do for such a long time.

They have all the tools in hand to do so. And they have the right to do so.

So, it's all in your hands now. Let's see if what was said will be true when faced to the rest of the world. I don't think the way Trump and his team will be leading USA on a good way on the long term, but hey, we will just have to see what happens.

Truly interesting times...with sad consequences, indeed, but what is done is done. We may not be changing the past, but we can act on the future.

That said...4 years of presidential tweets and "alternative facts" is sure a damn long time. It's funny only a week just happened and we are already that long of a topic. Maybe the Off Topic subforum could become its own separate entity, at this state.

 Peregrine wrote:

 whembly wrote:
So it's not a matter of ability... but, will.

Of course it's a matter of will. Any country can build a giant wall, the technology for doing so has been available for thousands of years. The only thing stopping countries from building border walls is that most reasonable governments don't have any interest in throwing away money on something so unbelievably ing stupid. The current republican party seems to be the rare exception.

What you think may be stupid...

Others may think is pragmatic.

Trump was elected largely for that wall...

 whembly wrote:
But, what you're feeling now? That's how most of us non-Obama voters felt when he was elected twice.

And this demonstrates the problem quite nicely: more both-sides-ism, and trying to pretend that Obama and Trump are in any way equivalent.

A) Equivalent? No wayz. Although, Trumpesto seems EO-happy as Obama.
B) Keep on rationalizing... you'll get there.

 Sarouan wrote:
So, it's all in your hands now. Let's see if what was said will be true when faced to the rest of the world. I don't think the way Trump and his team will be leading USA on a good way on the long term, but hey, we will just have to see what happens.

Would it have been better if the Democrats got their way? Have you been following politics long enough to know what the name of the model their economic plan was based off of? The Greek Model. If choosing between what we apparently are going for right now (my plant has already had enough orders pushing through since November that I'm currently able to work 12 hours a day, 7 days a week, in stark contrast to the near layoff I had in late April/early May) and the absolute utopian economy of Greece, then I'm glad that we went the way we did. Socialism isn't working. It has only worked efficiently once, and that was the Native Americans who became innovatively stunted because there was no drive to improve. So the Solicalist model will continue to fail unless you're willing to stagnate and figure out how to get the populace to forget about property. That's the only reason it worked for the Native Americans, and it's why it fails everywhere else.

That might not be entirely true, they either have to hybridize to make it sort of work, use military force to make people make it work, or it ends in open revolt as the proletariat tears down the bourgeoisie and try to reinstall a Socialist government where it winds up back at one of these three results.

 jmurph wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
We have the right to control our borders just like every other nation.

The right and the ability to exercise such are not the same thing.

What are you smoking if you think the US can't control its border if it put its mind to it?

Are we a nation that built the Hoover Dam? The Tennesse Valley Association? The Apollo Program?

Are we still?

No, we are too busy trying to build a giant wall instead of focusing on power projects, NASA, etc.

Or education. It is starting to show.

 Just Tony wrote:

 Sarouan wrote:
So, it's all in your hands now. Let's see if what was said will be true when faced to the rest of the world. I don't think the way Trump and his team will be leading USA on a good way on the long term, but hey, we will just have to see what happens.

Would it have been better if the Democrats got their way? Have you been following politics long enough to know what the name of the model their economic plan was based off of? The Greek Model. If choosing between what we apparently are going for right now (my plant has already had enough orders pushing through since November that I'm currently able to work 12 hours a day, 7 days a week, in stark contrast to the near layoff I had in late April/early May) and the absolute utopian economy of Greece, then I'm glad that we went the way we did. Socialism isn't working. It has only worked efficiently once, and that was the Native Americans who became innovatively stunted because there was no drive to improve. So the Solicalist model will continue to fail unless you're willing to stagnate and figure out how to get the populace to forget about property. That's the only reason it worked for the Native Americans, and it's why it fails everywhere else.

That might not be entirely true, they either have to hybridize to make it sort of work, use military force to make people make it work, or it ends in open revolt as the proletariat tears down the bourgeoisie and try to reinstall a Socialist government where it winds up back at one of these three results.

Lol. If that's what you think the democrats are pushing for, then you are severely mistaken.

 Just Tony wrote:
The Greek Model

Somehow I suspect this post will be filled with stereotypes, gross generalizations, and hyberbole.

Socialism isn't working.

Neither is Neo-Liberalism, and at least a mixed system has the advantage of not screwing everyone over for the sake of a lucky few while the rest of us pray for the glory of a 84 hour work week where we never get to see our friends, family, or engage in reality because we're so busy working we don't have time to look up.

It has only worked efficiently once, and that was the Native Americans who became innovatively stunted because there was no drive to improve.

Oh hey I was right!

So the Solicalist model will continue to fail unless you're willing to stagnate and figure out how to get the populace to forget about property. That's the only reason it worked for the Native Americans, and it's why it fails everywhere else.

Wow that old myth? Damn man.

One native Americans not only had a conception of property, they actually operated on a rudimentary capitalist system with a trade network that spanned most of Eastern North America while Western Europeans were still engaged in Merchantalism. The myth that the Native Americans were tricked by smart white people because they didn't understand concepts of ownership is a really old (and frankly really racist) myth about Native cultures. They completely understood the concept of property and land ownership, it's just that Europeans never engaged them economically with any intent to keep up their end. They manipulated the fact even Natives who learned to speak English or Spanish or French couldn't read it, and told them one thing while the paper actually said something else and that's when Colonists didn't just outright ignored the agreements when they became inconvenient. William Penn's sons are two really good examples. Soon as daddy died (and daddy wasn't exactly great, just not as bad) they tossed out every agreement he made with the Lakota and said "feth it we're gonna take what we want." EDIT: The Lakota actually filed suit in European courts, argued their case before the judge, presented evidence, and seemed to have a surprising understanding of English Common law practices concerning property rights. The Judge was really impressed that their feeble savage minds could make such a good effort before telling them to gtfo.


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 Vash108 wrote:


Or education. It is starting to show.

Tell me about it. If we're going to learn history and sociology from television can it at least be the newest line hip shows on Fox that'll be cancelled by the end of the year? Bonanza is so date.

 LordofHats wrote:
Soon as daddy died (and daddy wasn't exactly great, just not as bad) they tossed out every agreement he made with the Lakota and said "feth it we're gonna take what we want."

Ah, the Trump Model

Also, the current (discredited) model used by Republicans doesn't seem too successful in Kansas.

Sooooo....

That didn't take long to walk back that whole "20% tariff" thing on Mexico down to just a pandering "option on the table" schtick...

Because, of course, it would be US consumers and taxpayers bearing that cost, and congress expressed...disapproval.

 Just Tony wrote:

 Sarouan wrote:
So, it's all in your hands now. Let's see if what was said will be true when faced to the rest of the world. I don't think the way Trump and his team will be leading USA on a good way on the long term, but hey, we will just have to see what happens.

Would it have been better if the Democrats got their way? Have you been following politics long enough to know what the name of the model their economic plan was based off of? The Greek Model. If choosing between what we apparently are going for right now (my plant has already had enough orders pushing through since November that I'm currently able to work 12 hours a day, 7 days a week, in stark contrast to the near layoff I had in late April/early May) and the absolute utopian economy of Greece, then I'm glad that we went the way we did. Socialism isn't working. It has only worked efficiently once, and that was the Native Americans who became innovatively stunted because there was no drive to improve. So the Solicalist model will continue to fail unless you're willing to stagnate and figure out how to get the populace to forget about property. That's the only reason it worked for the Native Americans, and it's why it fails everywhere else.

There's a lot of mixed up concepts here.

Socialism != theoretical utopian Marxism where everybody owns nothing and everything, that's a pipe dream that nobody ever achieved (or even could achieve on any meaningful scale) or realistically actually attempted beyond platitudes for propaganda. There is no nation on earth that isn't socialist in some way except for failed states. Socialism is expressed in many different ways. The military for instance, is, by definition, an expression of socialism, that is the government owns some or all of the means to accomodate the needs for the market need of national defense. Same thing with police, fire departments, roads, schools, medicare, social security, trade regulation, census gathering, etc. Stuff the free market can't do or that doesn't have a profit incentive to cover adequately. The free market can't really handle national defense because it has no means of discretely assigning cost to customers, and even if it could, by necessity it would have to defend non-paying customers in order to defend paying customers, removing all demand incentive to pay and supplier incentive to deliver, with calamitous results for all, thus the government engages in socialism to provide for national defense as it is able to draw from all and in turn able and willing to defend all. It sounds weird when explained that way, but that's sort of the subconscious economic logic going on there.

Socialism!

 whembly wrote:
What you think may be stupid...

Others may think is pragmatic.

Trump was elected largely for that wall...

And this is stupidity. The wall is a spectacular waste of money that will do little, if anything, to stop illegal immigration. Trump was elected for that wall because the republican party is a dysfunctional mess that wishes the US was North Korea.

A) Equivalent? No wayz.

But that's what you just said.

But, what you're feeling now? That's how most of us non-Obama voters felt when he was elected twice.

You're claiming that the two situations are equivalent, when they really aren't. Conservatives felt bad when Obama was elected because they listened to tinfoil hat nonsense about all the awful things Obama was supposedly going to do, things that had nothing to do with his stated policy positions or voting record or anything else involving real-world evidence. People feel bad about Trump being elected because his stated policy positions are a disaster and so far he is doing a very good job of confirming that impression.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Just Tony wrote:
So the Solicalist model will continue to fail unless you're willing to stagnate and figure out how to get the populace to forget about property.

Socialism =/= private property doesn't exist. Got any better arguments?

Rosebuddy wrote:
The promise to build a wall was of course never understood as literal but as a promise to be extra racist against latinos.

That's what most people thought, it was just posturing by Trump. Similarly, the claim that Mexico was going to pay for it was never about budgetary concerns, it was about adding an extra dose of humiliation to Mexico about it.

And maybe it originally was just posturing by Trump, but now that everyone has been making fun of Trump for so long about his stupid wall, it's actually made him double down on actually building the thing. And then to that you can add in Trump's extra bit of humiliation when Mexico flatly refused to pay for the wall, and everyone had a good laugh at Trump when he discovered what the rest of us knew from day one, well now the great orange one is gonna build his wall no matter what.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frazzled wrote:
Our stock market would like to kick you in the financial cojones. It just broke 20,000. How's yours?

Under Obama the stock market tripled its value. I didn't hear you once mention that run of growth as a sign of Obama's successful policy making. Yet under Trump we have the market bump up 1% in a month and you're right in here crowing about.

Ridiculous.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Sooooo....

That didn't take long to walk back that whole "20% tariff" thing on Mexico down to just a pandering "option on the table" schtick...

Because, of course, it would be US consumers and taxpayers bearing that cost, and congress expressed...disapproval.

And, considering what it would do to the Mexican economy, nobody wants a failed state to border us.

 Vaktathi wrote:
That didn't take long to walk back that whole "20% tariff" thing on Mexico down to just a pandering "option on the table" schtick...

Because, of course, it would be US consumers and taxpayers bearing that cost, and congress expressed...disapproval.

And this is nicely demonstrated why Trump should never have been president. Your party has control over both houses of congress and can pass whatever they want, how can you possibly be stupid enough to announce a plan without bothering to ask if it's going to be possible to do it? Especially when it's a proposed policy with such major effects? But apparently practical questions of how best to govern a country are not relevant to Trump, he just says and does whatever impulsive thing he feels like at the moment.

One thing I find vaguely amusing is that Trump has signed off on three major building projects to be completed within his term of office. While expelling all the illegal immigrant labour that most construction firms probably rely on for non skilled work.

How does he expect to obtain the labour to build it all?

 whembly wrote:
Ah.... I see...

So it's not a matter of ability... but, will.

Glad we cleared that up.

You make a bunch of terrible comparisons, I tell you why they're terrible, you fail to address my response in any meaningful way. Thank you for your typical non-response, I guess, though I'm sure once you read something on Twitter you think is a proper response, you'll come back with it.

 whembly wrote:
What you think may be stupid...

Others may think is pragmatic.

Trump was elected largely for that wall...

“There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.”

Mod edit: rudeness redacted. --Janthkin

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
As someone who was not a fan of Obama by the time his reelection rolled around, I disagree.

I'll say. Some of us have memories longer than the last sound bite and remember the yesterage of 2012

Oh dear god now I'm thinking about how long I've been around here... jesus it's a long as time

 Frazzled wrote:
We have the right to control our borders just like every other nation. If you disagree too bad. you lost.

Yes no-one questions that. However this wall don't do anything toward it. It's just billions wasted to boost Trump's ego.

You are defending Trump's ego boosting project that doesn't actually help securing borders at all. If you are such a Trump fanboy why not ask Trump to spend those billions in a way that ACTUALYL helps secure border?

It's nothing but Trump wanting to build something big he will be remembered from. Too bad he doesn't realize that memory will be bad one. Especially to regular americans when they realize they paid billions out of nothing.

And indiscriminating machine gun fire at anything that moves is NOT okay. Can't believe you actually said that.