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Lets say i rush a rhino forward with a deamon prince behind. Usually you would be able to see 50% of the model so he would get a 4+ cover save but after the tank in frount of him would hage popped smoke, in a battle field with smoke allround a tank you realistically would not see the deamon prince at all and tecnically would be out of the line of sight so cannot he aimed at right?

Unless your act of popping smoke releases a real cloud of smoke on the tabletop and prevents LOS from being drawn, then popping smoke has no effect other than those listed in its rules.

Short answer: no.

Realistic and game balance sometimes end up opposing each other. This is one of those times.

Ok glad you said that cos it leads me on to my next question. People ofter place painted cotton wool on top of the tank to represent popping smoke. There is no rule stating the max dimmensions you can meke the smoke to so could you not place a massive cloud of smoke( cotton wool ) to create the chance of your models behind being out of los?

No, because you have no pewrmission to place the smoke.

The smoke, in game terms, does not exist. It is simply a visual aide.

No permission? Sure says in th brb a marker can be placed to represent popping smoke. And in white dwarf battle reports ive seen painted cotton wool to represent it. In game termsgames workshop probably havent develop a way to box smake and sell it but the idea of the hobby is to represent a battle field that you comand an army on. If popping smoke creates a cloud of smoke over a tank to give it a cover save then surly there must be less chance of aiming and hitting something behind the tank???

That's actually not accurate Nos.

There are no rules allowing you to place cotton or wool or whatever to represent the smoke. Therefore, by simply allowing them to place it you are making up rules. The default LOS rules make no exception allowing for seeing through an object like the one described, and therefore unless you make a rule that the smoke is ignored for the purposes of LOS, then it isn't.

The cotton isn't allowed to be there to begin with, but if you allow it and don't discuss how else it affects the game, it defaults to blocking los as does anything else. Don't expect someone to allow you to put down the cotton if you argue it gives cover or blocks los to other stuff though.


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@ OP: this falls under YMIR unfortunately. Your opponent has to agree to whatever additional rules you want to add. I personally wouldn't let you gain additional game benefits from using smoke launchers.

I use a small token that is placed on a vehicle to denote it is under the smoke launcher effect so that we can remember.

Humm a cloudy subject if i ever did see 1 !!!!

Har har. It sort of is, but really this whole topic just sounds like someone trying to game the system. Congratz, you found a rules thingy you can get away with once on opponents and make them angry/annoyed.

Sebbyp538 wrote:Ok glad you said that cos it leads me on to my next question. People ofter place painted cotton wool on top of the tank to represent popping smoke. There is no rule stating the max dimmensions you can meke the smoke to so could you not place a massive cloud of smoke( cotton wool ) to create the chance of your models behind being out of los?

Only if the smoke launchers have rules stating that it blocks LOS to models behind the smoke.

However I could not find this in the rules, so the cotton is just there as a visual aid for the rules for the 'Smoke Launchers' that are in the BRB/Codex.

so RAW you could place a 4 foot by 6 foot sheet of smoke over your vehicle, but you would have to ignore the sheet for LoS purposes.

Agree with Deathreaper.

The rules on p62 do say to "place some cotton wool or other suitable marker on or around the vehicle to show it is obscured", but they don't give any explicit instruction that this marker is meant to affect the game in any way other than as a reminder.

Technically you could take this instruction as justification to place a two foot by two foot bale of wool on the table and block LOS to most of the game, but opponents aren't going to put up with that. What constitutes "suitable" may be a point of dispute with your opponent, at this point.

In practice, as the game is played, any wool is ignored for LOS purposes and assumed to be there purely as a reminder and to look cool.

RAW, the cotton marker has no specific effect other than as a marker, and it is not clear as to whether or not it is ignored for LOS. Since barely anything in 5th edition is ignored for LOS - banner poles and the like being the only exceptions - there's good reason to believe that markers should be ignored too, despite the rules not making it clear.

As Mann has inferred, most will ignore the smoke/cotton for LOS and although there are no rules restricting this (just as there are no rules restricting you from modelling to your advantage) you are being a bad sportsman because you are introducing an element to the game that can clearly benefit you if you choose to insist that it blocks TLOS. I'm not saying that it doesn't, but it's a cheap trick and won't make you any friends.

well if markers are now going to be considered for cover, I'm going to make some obnoxiously huge markers for everything and grant everything in my army a cover save...

really? c'mon people. Like Dracos said, sounds like someone is trying to game the system. No, the smoke will not prevent LOS for the demon prince, but the vehicle will probably provide some cover. RTFM, people!

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:well if markers are now going to be considered for cover, I'm going to make some obnoxiously huge markers for everything and grant everything in my army a cover save...

Uuh... I'll get right on "psychic power used" and "one-shot weapon used" markers.

I'm not going to go as far as some of you guys and allege bad faith, because it does makes sense that smoke from a rhino would block LOS for something behind it. However, the majority is right in that it could easily get gamed to hell and back, and I'll agree that absent a pre-agreed house rule, smoke launchers don't block LOS behind the obscured vehicle.

Just because a rule can be abused, does not mean it isn't a rule.

Allowing smoke to block LoS can be abused.
But allowing wings to block LoS can also be abused, but it is still the rule.
Replacing exploded vehicles with a crater can be abused, but it is the rule.

There does not need to be an additional rule for smoke to block LoS, it is already covered in the rules provided.

The rules say to use true LoS, to get down to eye level and see what the model can see. Thus, if the firer can't see the target, it can't see the target. There is no exclusion for painted cotton.

So the only remaining question, is if placing the cotton is legal. And from what I remember, and what has been said here, the rules say you can place the cotton, so it is obviously legal to place the cotton.

The smoke MARKER is simply that. A marker, or aide to show that the vehicle popped smoke. If I created a markerlight marker for a tau army and started placing markers on your units, my marker wouldn't give you a cover save. Size of the marker doesn't matter either. pg. 62 of the rulebook under smoke launchers says "place some cotton wool or other suitable marker on or around the vehicle to show it (the vehicle) is obscured.

nosferatu1001 wrote:The smoke, in game terms, does not exist. It is simply a visual aide.

Frankly, if anyone you play with tries to argue otherwise, I think maybe you should play with someone else.

A "marker" is not an actual object "in game", but an aide memoir.

yeah, I'm agreeing with you, but more so, I think it's clear to even someone playing the first time that it servers no in-game purpose other then an indicator.

nosferatu1001 wrote:A "marker" is not an actual object "in game", but an aide memoir.

That is what I wanted to say.

The smoke balls of cotton wool are not a "real object" in the terrain, they are a visual indication that the vehicle with them around it is entitled to Obscured status.

That sounds like a house rule to me. I don't see anything that would indicate that.

I'm not agreeing with the OP, I'm just saying that the conventional way to play by ignoring the smoke is not actually supported by the rules. Its more that people use TMIR to allow the use of whatever marker the opponent wants in exchange for altering LOS rules to ignore the marker.

"or other suitable marker" is a pretty darn general phrase. Nothing in the rules states or directly implies that such a marker is meant to affect LOS.

Your opponent's opinion has equal weight to yours in a decision on what constitutes a "suitable marker".

The existing 40k culture AFAIK tends to ignore smoke markers. You may play it differently at your house.

Dracos - "markers" have no existence in game. For example wound counters are markers, but are you suggesting they block LOS?

If you agree to let your opponent use something that would physically block the LOS when checking TLOS, then yes they technically would unless you also include a clause in your agreement to alter the TLOS rules as they exist in the BRB.

Again, all I'm saying is that the rules tell you the check TLOS, and does not make any exception for markers. I, and every one I have ever played, all play that they are ignored for TLOS - but as a point in fact the BRB makes no such exception. The convention is adopted automatically without much thought, but arguing that the rules provide for this exception to TLOS would be factually incorrect.

No, you are letting them use a MARKER.

A "marker" is used as a reminder. It is NOT a game object. You have not altered the rules as they allow for a marker.

Really, can you site a page number where objects denoted as markers do not count for LOS?

Dracos wrote:Really, can you site a page number where objects denoted as markers do not count for LOS?

Can you cite a page number where they do?

No.

Markers aren't defined by the rules, so they have no existence as an in-game object.

If people wish to insist that markers block LoS, I shall stop using small skull tokens as the wound markers for my Tyranid creatures, and use a 12 inch tall, six inch wide cylinder with a 'wounds left' dial on it instead.

Well im glad ive started such a debate but i never really wanted all this. All i was looking for was a yes/no. At the end of the day there is no rule stating that it obstructs line of site or that it doesnt but for all you people to devote your time to a hobby which represents a battlefield i find it hard that people canot imagine that a cloud of smoke would obstruct line of site. Its like when you see people on t.v in the army training by throwing a smoke granade in a room to obstruct the targets view.....same thing... Gamesworkshop are a complete rip off but i think it would be a step too far for them to box smoke and sell it so it is told to place cotton wool to represent it. Im guessin the guys against it have tanks etc that dont have the smokelaunchers as a weaponary choice. Seeing as smoke launchers can be used once and that you represent the smoke within reason i will continue as targets behind tank being out of los and i will allow opponents to use this too. Makes the gaming experience more true to happenings in a battle field sooo . Case closed.


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Kilkrazy wrote:

Dracos wrote:Really, can you site a page number where objects denoted as markers do not count for

If people wish to insist that markers block LoS, I shall stop using small skull tokens as the wound markers for my Tyranid creatures, and use a 12 inch tall, six inch wide cylinder with a 'wounds left' dial on it instead.

No just use a pen and paper and mark the bottom of your bases with numbers. Why on earth would a skull drop from a tyranid when you wound him? Get a grip!

If you're going to do that, at least be accurate. Smoke launchers wouldn't be a column of smoke out the top of the tank, it would be a cloud surrounding it. Make a circle out of the cotton or something.

That would be neat though - if a vehicle that popped smoke granted concealment to models within 2" or something. It would allow you to jump forward, dump out to shoot, but still have cover from incoming fire.