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Another limitation is you’ve got three squads of Oblits constrained by the radius of the Changeling. Might be better to make one of tzeentchians a second Slaaneshi one with the Lord, so you can have two teams of six in different areas? You’ve got the CP for a second EC if they survive.

Perhaps if the Plaguebearers split up a little, they could provide better screening? They’re quite tough as they are, and might perform better in their purpose by covering more ground as opposed to maximising their -1 to be hit. Or even trade some for Brimstones.

As someone playing a pure world eaters list, I feel extremely constrained by not having psyker abilities such as warp time. A renegade list is looking more and more feasible for me. Apart from losing access to the Veterans of the Long War strategem, I think this could be a quite viable option given the legion trait allows advance and charge for applicable units, access to psychic powers, and flexibility in being able to choose chaos marks per unit. Does anyone play renegade lists regularly? What are the potential strengths and drawbacks of a renegade list? What are the spotlight renegade units?

I also play pure world eaters. Before the codex I was using a sorcerer to warp time my 20 berzerkers out of a kharybdis into the enemy lines to hilarious effect. Without warp time you really cannot do this, so I've moved my zerkers into rhinos where they can move 9 inches out and then charge, and I've put a contemptor in my kharibdis. This new dynamic really puts a mental strain on my opponent to pick their poison.

I have no comments on renegades, I'm stickin with my bois in red covered blue.

 andysonic1 wrote:
I also play pure world eaters. Before the codex I was using a sorcerer to warp time my 20 berzerkers out of a kharybdis into the enemy lines to hilarious effect. Without warp time you really cannot do this, so I've moved my zerkers into rhinos where they can move 9 inches out and then charge, and I've put a contemptor in my kharibdis. This new dynamic really puts a mental strain on my opponent to pick their poison.

I have no comments on renegades, I'm stickin with my bois in red covered blue.

Yea, that's always a thought but my concern is hitting a turn 2, turn 3 charge. Essentially the game is halfway over by the time your rhinozerkers get where they need to be (without warptime). My thoughts were that with warp time, and the renegade assault + charge trait, I might be looking at a turn 2 rhinozerker charge at the latest. I don't have a Kharibdis or any other forgeworld models, so I'm kinda working with the basics. The game seems to be getting more and more shooty as well, so keeping my guys alive is proving to be more of a task.

Have you considered adding more threats to your list, such as Heldrakes, Land Raiders, Helbrutes, Havocs, Obliterators, Terminators, Cultists blobs, or Chaos Spawn? You can start a lot of the above on the field which will divert fire off your other units, or start some of it off the field to deep strike in to mess with your opponent. Rhinos are pretty tough, and if your opponent doesn't devote firepower to them than they are not going to go down. Also don't forget that you can move + advance a rhino and still use the smoke launchers per the FAQ. If your group is more competitive maybe start using the new ITC missions that are a flat 6 turns long and change up the dynamics of the game to make TAC lists more valuable. This will benefit your rhino zerkers because a TAC list may not have the dedicated firepower to eliminate more than one rhino while also trying to stop your other threats.

Your one strategy shouldn't be to devote everything into getting your berzerkers into combat as fast as possible. They are simply a tool to be used as the need arises. Sometimes you'll get opponents in your face turn one and you can just hop out of the rhinos and attack, and sometimes you'll get a backfield gunline that you have to get to. Heldrakes / Deep Strickers can get to the gunlines ASAP to mess them up, and Cultists / Spawn can screen your deployment and flanks.

It doesn't matter if the zerkers get to your opponent late because whenever they get there they will start destroying everything in their path. Even one zerker has enough attacks on the charge to decimate another unit. What matters is how the rest of your army works together to complete not only their own unit based objectives but each other's objectives.

 andysonic1 wrote:
Have you considered adding more threats to your list, such as Heldrakes, Land Raiders, Helbrutes, Havocs, Obliterators, Terminators, Cultists blobs, or Chaos Spawn? You can start a lot of the above on the field which will divert fire off your other units, or start some of it off the field to deep strike in to mess with your opponent. Rhinos are pretty tough, and if your opponent doesn't devote firepower to them than they are not going to go down. Also don't forget that you can move + advance a rhino and still use the smoke launchers per the FAQ. If your group is more competitive maybe start using the new ITC missions that are a flat 6 turns long and change up the dynamics of the game to make TAC lists more valuable. This will benefit your rhino zerkers because a TAC list may not have the dedicated firepower to eliminate more than one rhino while also trying to stop your other threats.

Your one strategy shouldn't be to devote everything into getting your berzerkers into combat as fast as possible. They are simply a tool to be used as the need arises. Sometimes you'll get opponents in your face turn one and you can just hop out of the rhinos and attack, and sometimes you'll get a backfield gunline that you have to get to. Heldrakes / Deep Strickers can get to the gunlines ASAP to mess them up, and Cultists / Spawn can screen your deployment and flanks.

It doesn't matter if the zerkers get to your opponent late because whenever they get there they will start destroying everything in their path. Even one zerker has enough attacks on the charge to decimate another unit. What matters is how the rest of your army works together to complete not only their own unit based objectives but each other's objectives.

yea that's good advice, I guess my concern is the lack of firepower and mobility I have on the table. It seems like all my money, currently, is on close range/ assault so I feel like I need to get there asap. My primary opponent, my brother, plays Eldar with 2 fire prisms, a wave serpent, wraith lord, and wraight guard - definitely a shooty list. I don't think I have a roster that can handle that since, vehicle-wise, i only have 2 helbrutes and a rhino. The rest is all infantry, including spawn and cultists. I suppose that once I get this Land Raider and second rhino assembled, the pieces will start to come together and tactics will open up to me.

Always look at your own situation and your opponent's. I had an assault heavy Word Bearers host with Rhinos with a shooty Helbrute for fire support. Came up against a Death Guard army that was all medium ranged guns. I sat back and made them come towards me, get the free hits in when it favours you and then charge forwards to engage

I would suggest fixing up some proxy Heldrakes and Terminators and playing around with a few lists. I proxied my Khyribdis for months before I decided to buy it.

I ran my khorne army as world eaters once then switched to renegades and have not looked back. I found that my beserkers didn't need the world eaters tactic at all when you hit with the numbers I do (2 squads of 20, 2 squads of 10 in 2 rhinos). Sure, the enemy will typically kill one of the 2 blobs In the first turn, but the advantages of warp time, advance and charge well make up for losing +1a on the charge. On top of that being able to cast demonic strength on my deamon prince and being able to actually block psychic tests more than once is very valuable.

Only thing I miss is the Kharn / Defiler / Hellbrute fire base. Kharn did amazing at making sure the big guns hit while his boys ran up and wrecked face.

I'm looking at adding a Hellforged Contemptor to my Black Legion, for even more firepower.

I lost surprisingly badly at a tournament a few weeks ago with a Daemon-heavy list. That's when I realized I really needed to bulk up the CSM side and make them deadlier.

Can anyone recommend a particular loadout for a shooty Contemptor? The rest of my army is fairly balanced between anti-tank and anti-horde [though not a lot on the whole yet].

While I'm at it, can someone clarify for me if the Hellforged Contemptor has to take double of its guns, or if they can be switched up? Could I give it, say, a Kheres and an Ectoplasma Cannon? The FAQ isn't as clear as it could be.

Hmm. One could build an army with Nurgling troops, Rubricae line infantry, Helbrute or Obliterator or tank fire support, and Possessed or Terminator attackers.

This would mean every unit in the army wants to be dealt with by medium to high Damage attacks. Deny small arms fire a decent target.

To a lesser extent, Plague Marines and Plaguebearers can find a place in this as well.

Do we have any Emperor's Children players here? Curious if Noise Marine Troops are as hilarious/terrifying as they sound.

 andysonic1 wrote:
I also play pure world eaters. Before the codex I was using a sorcerer to warp time my 20 berzerkers out of a kharybdis into the enemy lines to hilarious effect. Without warp time you really cannot do this, so I've moved my zerkers into rhinos where they can move 9 inches out and then charge, and I've put a contemptor in my kharibdis. This new dynamic really puts a mental strain on my opponent to pick their poison.

I have no comments on renegades, I'm stickin with my bois in red covered blue.

I've been running a couple variations on this list for my World Eaters, it's been surprisingly effective, even when I don't manage to get first turn (my group has been using the ITC +1 to initiative pretty much since 8th came out). Basically, I use the Kharybdis to put a melee threat in my opponent's face on the first turn with the two Storm Eagles delivering the rest on the second turn and shredding whatever vehicle threats I deem most important.

++ Battalion Detachment (Chaos - FW Heretic Astartes) [51 PL, 1084pts] ++

+ Flyer +

Chaos Storm Eagle Assault Gunship [18 PL, 392pts]: Twin multi-melta, Vengeance launcher
. Twin lascannons: 2x Twin lascannon

Chaos Storm Eagle Assault Gunship [18 PL, 392pts]: Twin multi-melta, Vengeance launcher
. Twin lascannons: 2x Twin lascannon

+ Fast Attack +

Hellforged Kharybdis Assault Claw [15 PL, 300pts]

++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [51 PL, 914pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Legion: World Eaters

+ HQ +

Chaos Lord [5 PL, 101pts]: Combi-plasma, Mark of Khorne, Power fist

Dark Apostle [5 PL, 87pts]: Combi-flamer, Mark of Khorne, Power maul, The Black Mace

Exalted Champion [5 PL, 93pts]: Brass Collar of Borghaster, Combi-flamer, Mark of Khorne, Power fist

+ Troops +

Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 40pts]: 9x Chaos Cultist w/ autopistol and brutal assault weapon, Mark of Khorne
. Cultist Champion: Brutal assault weapon and Autopistol

Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 40pts]: 9x Chaos Cultist w/ autopistol and brutal assault weapon, Mark of Khorne
. Cultist Champion: Brutal assault weapon and Autopistol

Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 40pts]: 9x Chaos Cultist w/ autopistol and brutal assault weapon, Mark of Khorne
. Cultist Champion: Brutal assault weapon and Autopistol

Khorne Berzerkers [9 PL, 158pts]
. Berzerker Champion: Combi-flamer, Power fist
. 7x Chainsword and Chainaxe: 7x Chainaxe

Khorne Berzerkers [9 PL, 180pts]: Icon of Wrath
. Berzerker Champion: Chainaxe, Chainsword
. 9x Chainsword and Chainaxe: 9x Chainaxe

Khorne Berzerkers [9 PL, 175pts]
. Berzerker Champion: Combi-flamer, Power fist
. 8x Chainsword and Chainaxe: 8x Chainaxe

++ Total: [102 PL, 1998pts] ++

Maelific Lords 80pts.
Bah.

 lindsay40k wrote:
Do we have any Emperor's Children players here? Curious if Noise Marine Troops are as hilarious/terrifying as they sound.

i played them in alpha legion with the stratagem to make them infiltrate, supported by a sorcerer with preiscenze and delightful agony they are a real pain in the ass for the opponent, if you then use VOTLW stratagem they can kill practically anything

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Maelific Lords 80pts.
Bah.

Now they're worthless. If they also nerf smite, this is a massive overcorrection, exactly as I feared it would be.

If Smite remains the same, this justified them for Renegades, but little else.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Maelific Lords 80pts.
Bah.

They needed a point increase but not at 166%.

That's why they shouldn't listen to the community ALL the time.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Maelific Lords 80pts.
Bah.

80 is steep, but I am glad the spam is over.

Daaaaaaaaaaaaam...... That's all I have to say about Mal lords. That's a way over correction. 50pts would have been fine.

Having said that, guess people will start taking heralds for their smite hq's now that they are much cheaper and all around better.

Way too many points on the ML.

Doesn't sound like Chapter Approved is changing anything other than points for FW kits, tho. So I think Smite will remain as-is.

Anyone notice the illustration? Looks like points for the Exalted Champion are going down. Not sure what that other, bigger thing is, thought it was a Warboss.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Way too many points on the ML.

Doesn't sound like Chapter Approved is changing anything other than points for FW kits, tho. So I think Smite will remain as-is.

Anyone notice the illustration? Looks like points for the Exalted Champion are going down. Not sure what that other, bigger thing is, thought it was a Warboss.

Pretty sure that's a plague marine and a gorkanaught

 gwarsh41 wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Maelific Lords 80pts.
Bah.

80 is steep, but I am glad the spam is over.

You better hope that Primaris Psykers are up to 80 points too, or else the spam will continue.

Huh. 80pts is commensurate with 4PL.

4PL felt like too much for me to even consider proxying them to see what the fuss was about. 60/3 might have been more on the money.

I was looking forwards to Hive Fleet Kronos throwing some stone at the Smite scissors, but I guess a sledgehammer cracks the nut just as well.

If I fancy trying Smite spam, I’ll just say my Diazmonettes are all Heralds. Hell, Steed Heralds have price parity in points and PL, and get +1W, M14, invuln... bad knee-jerk.

Best way to counter eldar revenant titan? Packs a lot of dakka at 1200: 2+ 4d6 12 str -4 ap d6 (2d6 on wounds of 6) and missle launcher 2+ 2d6 8 str -4 ap d6

Worst part is it is toughness 9 with a 4++ (if it moves which it will) and at only 1200 there are 800 points left in the army to deal with.

Seems like the option has to be lascannons as meltas coming in at Str 8 is a wash. Death hex seems an obvious necessity but is hard to get off at 8 and eldar have farseer that can reroll one or both deny rolls. My standard list runs magnus and aetaos'rau'keres with changeling. Smite seems an obvious route but not sure I can weather the alpha strike, if I go first shouldn't be as bad as it cripples. Also this is more difficult with malefic coming in at 80 points. Not sure if I should go more MEQ and distribute the dakka as the Lord of Change essentially gets one shot by the titan via mathhammer even wiht a 3++ on T8 at 27 wounds...

I was thinking how the meta is hordes now. So, building on that, what would make a list able to counter hordes easily ? (Without having to go full horde yourself).

I mean, we can go cultist horde ourselves, but I was thinking in terms of anti-horde. Not out hoarding the other player. Best weapon I can think of against hordes is of course, flamers. But flamers are short range, which are problematic.

The best I have been able to come up with, is to have a squad of 10 chosen in a Rhino with 5 flamers, and champion with combi flamer. This suddenly make the Rhino a target. But the opponent has to destroy said Rhino and then kill 4 chosen before they can kill even one flamer guy.

If untouched. The 6 flamers will do 6d6 auto hits on a horde and then follow up by charging into combat. (Chosen are decent at fighting).

So what do you guys think? Would a list incorporating two or three such Rhinos and Chosen be anti horde? Bear in mind of course, that if they want to spend firepower killing the Rhino and said chosen squad, then its fire power they are not devoting to killing your other stuff.

The flip side to that, would be if a squad of berserkers in the same Rhino would achieve the same result lol. However, I have never had that much luck getting berserkers into combat before they get shot off the board. And the overwatch these days can be pretty brutal.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I was thinking how the meta is hordes now. So, building on that, what would make a list able to counter hordes easily ? (Without having to go full horde yourself).

I mean, we can go cultist horde ourselves, but I was thinking in terms of anti-horde. Not out hoarding the other player. Best weapon I can think of against hordes is of course, flamers. But flamers are short range, which are problematic.

The best I have been able to come up with, is to have a squad of 10 chosen in a Rhino with 5 flamers, and champion with combi flamer. This suddenly make the Rhino a target. But the opponent has to destroy said Rhino and then kill 4 chosen before they can kill even one flamer guy.

If untouched. The 6 flamers will do 6d6 auto hits on a horde and then follow up by charging into combat. (Chosen are decent at fighting).

So what do you guys think? Would a list incorporating two or three such Rhinos and Chosen be anti horde? Bear in mind of course, that if they want to spend firepower killing the Rhino and said chosen squad, then its fire power they are not devoting to killing your other stuff.

The flip side to that, would be if a squad of berserkers in the same Rhino would achieve the same result lol. However, I have never had that much luck getting berserkers into combat before they get shot off the board. And the overwatch these days can be pretty brutal.

Noise Marines can clear chaff units like many horde armies field. Cultists, Conscripts, and Ork Boyz melt to Noise Marine shooting, especially with Veterans of the Long War. In my last tournament game, my noise boys did terrible things to Tau Fire Warriors and Kroot. And perhaps best of all, since Noise Marines are Slaanesh devoted, they can use Endless Cacophony to get a second shooting attack, potentially clearing a second horde of enemies. Gnarly!

Flamer Chosen costs, what? Two regular Marines?

For that same price, you get:

-The same number of attacks in CC
-Double the amount of wounds
-2 shots at 24", 4 at 12", as compared to 3.5 autohits at 8"
-More board control

 JNAProductions wrote:
Flamer Chosen costs, what? Two regular Marines?

For that same price, you get:

-The same number of attacks in CC
-Double the amount of wounds
-2 shots at 24", 4 at 12", as compared to 3.5 autohits at 8"
-More board control

Chosen are 23 points with the Flamer (16+7 right?). Also those are 3.5 autohit compared to the 2.something for the Bolters. That adds up over time with Chosen.

Chosen definitely need a buff though. Always thought Veteran skills were the way to do that.

10 Chosen, 5 Flamers, Combi Flamer. About 200 points.

15 Marines, stock. About 200 points.

At 24":
10 Chosen get 5 shots, 3.33 hits.
15 Marines get 15 shots for 10 hits.
Clear win to the stock Marines, by 300%.

At 12":
10 Chosen get 10 shots, 6.66 hits.
15 Marines get 30 shots, 20 hits.
Clear win to the stock Marines, by 300%.

At 8":
10 Chosen get 8 shots on 3+ (5.33 hits), 2 shots at 4+ (1 hit), and 6d6 auto hits (21 hits) for 27.33 total.
15 Marines get 30 shots, 20 hits.
Clear win to the Chosen, by 137%.

The Marines are WILDLY more effective at anything past 8", while still having more durability. Chosen are more effective within 8"... But not by a ton. The only thing that's really nice about the Flamer Chosen is their Overwatch.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I was thinking how the meta is hordes now. So, building on that, what would make a list able to counter hordes easily ? (Without having to go full horde yourself).

I mean, we can go cultist horde ourselves, but I was thinking in terms of anti-horde. Not out hoarding the other player. Best weapon I can think of against hordes is of course, flamers. But flamers are short range, which are problematic.

The best I have been able to come up with, is to have a squad of 10 chosen in a Rhino with 5 flamers, and champion with combi flamer. This suddenly make the Rhino a target. But the opponent has to destroy said Rhino and then kill 4 chosen before they can kill even one flamer guy.

If untouched. The 6 flamers will do 6d6 auto hits on a horde and then follow up by charging into combat. (Chosen are decent at fighting).

So what do you guys think? Would a list incorporating two or three such Rhinos and Chosen be anti horde? Bear in mind of course, that if they want to spend firepower killing the Rhino and said chosen squad, then its fire power they are not devoting to killing your other stuff.

The flip side to that, would be if a squad of berserkers in the same Rhino would achieve the same result lol. However, I have never had that much luck getting berserkers into combat before they get shot off the board. And the overwatch these days can be pretty brutal.

Interesting question. But for Conscript spam, good horde lists have seemed rare in 8th edition. There's too many things that are good at shooting up the chaff.

Until recently, I've been playing two lists: a Noise Marine list and a Lascannon spam list. For all their shooting, the Noise Marines proved to be a little too fragile. Facing a horde, they would go down to volume of fire pretty quickly. They're a mid-range unit, and that needs to be considered when taking them. They are going to get wounded and die just as easily as any other MEQ.

The Lascannon spam list is very good at taking out everything supporting horde armies. I played plenty of games where every tank / walker / transport / heavy infantry unit was destroyed by the end of the first turn. Taking 6 CSM squads with Lascannons gives you a lot of ways to deal with a horde charging at you.

But now I've switched to a Deep Strike list, which has the right balance of anti-infantry and anti-armor. I think this is probably the best anti-horde CSMs can do. It's built around 3 squads of Obliterators, Abaddon, a deep striking Sorcerer, several large blobs of MoK Cultists, and whatever else I feel like playing that day (usually Terminators.)

Abaddon, the Sorcerer, and the Oblits drop on an enemy's flank, then I use Tide of Traitors to bring up one of the Cultist blobs. The Sorcerer casts Warp Time on the Cultists, who move to screen everything behind them. The Obliterators just shoot anything in 24 inches. The Cultists can just stand there to act as a screen, or they can charge into combat.

The reason this works is the rerolls to hit. Statically, each squad of Obliterators averages 10 hits, and the Cultists are charging into combat with 60 attacks. If they do good, I can use Fury of Khorne to let them do it again. If they don't do good, I use Tide of Traitors the next turn to restore them to full health or bring up another blob to replace them.

But I don't really agree with the idea of massed flamers. The trick to a good horde list is having something good behind it. Special weapons should have range and a good chance to deal damage. It feels like opportunities are slipping with short range special weapons.